Semi-automatic shotgun legality questions

lunde · December 10, 2001, 06:33 PM

As I understand Federal law, a semi-automatic shotgun manufactured after some date in 1994 can possess only one of the following features:

1) Pistolgrip stock
2) Fixed magazine that holds more than five rounds
3) Accepts a detachable magazine
4) Folding or telescopic stock

See: http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/legal/semi.htm

Specifically, 921(a)(30)(D) in the above. Most people deal with #1 and #2 of my list above.

Consider three semi-automatic shotguns: Benelli M1 Tactical, Benelli M1 Practical, and Remington 11-87 Police.

As I understand it, the Benelli M1 Tactical (5+1 capacity) cannot use the four-shot extension if the pistolgrip stock is installed. However, the M1 Practical cannot use both a pistolgrip stock and the four-shot extension that comes with it. Also, if one were to add a pistolgrip stock to an 11-87 Police (with a seven-shot magazine as standard), its magazine extension would need to be removed.

Lucky for me, I prefer the standard stocks on these shotguns. I have tried the full-length pistolgrip ones, but didn't find them to be as comfortable, and the standard stock provides a lower profile.

My question is about whether most people realize this legal issue. For example, back when I was shopping for my Benelli M1 Tactical, I found one on GunBroker that was post-ban, and the seller (a gun shop of some sort) had the pistolgrip stock *and* four-shot magazine extension installed. I asked about the legality of this, and they didn't seem to have a clue that it may violate this (I know, stupid) law.

Benjamin · December 10, 2001, 09:31 PM

To muddy the issue further, I understand that particular configurations may be ruled as 'particularly suitable for sporting purposes' and thus not subject to those rules.

In this vein....I have seen pictures of a mossberg 9200 with factory folder and PG. Also saw the ATF letter ruling it as legal on Bardwell's website.

Goet · December 11, 2001, 12:03 PM

So my Mossy with, what is it, 7 in the tube can only have one more option???

swampgator · December 11, 2001, 05:24 PM

Quote:

So my Mossy with, what is it, 7 in the tube can only have one more option???

Nope, read on...

Quote:

As I understand Federal law, a semi-automatic shotgun manufactured after some date in 1994 can possess only one of the following features:

1) Pistolgrip stock
2) Fixed magazine that holds more than five rounds
3) Accepts a detachable magazine
4) Folding or telescopic stock

So given the above criteria "ONLY ONE" you can't add a folder.

As posted by Benjamin

Quote:

In this vein....I have seen pictures of a mossberg 9200 with factory folder and PG. Also saw the ATF letter ruling it as legal on Bardwell's website.

What was the mag capacity? 5 or under it's legal but from the above info, anything past that wouldn't be.

So given the above criteria "ONLY ONE" you can't add a folder.

Goet · December 11, 2001, 05:31 PM

Well that's a bunch of horse hockey!!!

How much are those taxes (AOW) now?

swampgator · December 11, 2001, 05:33 PM

Aren't AOWs $5.00?
Just remember you can't stock an AOW! That's a SBS for $200.

Benjamin · December 11, 2001, 06:19 PM

Quote:

What was the mag capacity? 5 or under it's legal but from the above info, anything past that wouldn't be

Not entirely sure, but it was probably 4+1. That said...it had a folder, and a conspicuously protruding pistol grip.

Per the info with which Dr. Lunde started this thread, that puts it in violation of the 94 AW Regs, EXCEPT that it was exempted as particularly sporting.

I will attempt to find pictures and the letter in question.

lunde · December 11, 2001, 06:57 PM

This "particularly sporting" exemption is hilarious. If anyone can find regulations that use this terminology, please post it here.

Never mind. I just found it: http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/user/...f_letter87.txt

Doesn't help much. I am curious how one can have a folding or telescopic stock without having a pistolgrip as well.

Benjamin · December 11, 2001, 10:47 PM

My mistake. Sorry guys.

krept · December 11, 2001, 11:22 PM

I'm interested too...

It sure would be keen to have one of those Benelli M-4s and only have to sacrifice the PG...

OR sacrifice the telescoping stock for a PG and full sized magazine.

Then again, a good brush and canvas doesn't ensure a work of art...

swampgator · December 12, 2001, 09:56 AM

A good rule of thumb for any gun mod, regardless of type:

Shoot the weapon a lot. I wouldn't recommend any mod for a handgun with less than 500 rounds, 1000 being better. For a shotgun put at least 250 light (bird) loads, and maybe 100 buckshot thru it.

Once you have a lot of rounds thru a gun any "problems" the guns have will be evident. Then the decision of which parts to replace will become apparent. With shotguns the biggest problem IMO is stock fit and shot pattern. The pattern can be taken care of with ammo selection, the stock will require additional attention.

The full stock with pistol grip is specific purpose design, some shooters will benefit from it, most don't shoot their guns enough to realize any advantage. That being said a traditional full stock shotgun, again IMO is probably the best shoulder weapon there is. I've shot them long enough to realize that for me they are an advantageous to a full stock with a PG.

Not only do the above reasons make it better for me but, damn near most shotguns come with a traditional stock, and any other would be an additional purchase.

Rob62 · December 14, 2001, 11:26 PM

My take on having read the law is a little different. The way I understand it and have gotten confirmation from several sources. Is that on any tube fed semi auto shotgun (example Rem 1100), made on or after 14 Sept. 1994, that has the capability to have an extended mag tube placed on it. You can NOT legally add a full length pistol gripped stock such as the Speedfeed. Or you would be in violation of the law.

Maybe I'm wrong here. Comments?

Rob

swampgator · December 15, 2001, 01:05 AM

Brain Fade

xm15 · December 15, 2001, 04:13 PM

Does anyone know of someone who has removed the mag extension from an 1187P in order to add the pistolgrip stock?

"As I understand it, the Benelli M1 Tactical (5+1 capacity) cannot use the four-shot extension if the pistolgrip stock is installed. However, the M1 Practical cannot use both a pistolgrip stock and the four-shot extension that comes with it. Also, if one were to add a pistolgrip stock to an 11-87 Police (with a seven-shot magazine as standard), its magazine extension would need to be removed. "

December 11, 2001, 12:03 PM	#3
Goet Senior Member Join Date: August 8, 2000 Location: North Ogden, UT Posts: 953	So my Mossy with, what is it, 7 in the tube can only have one more option??? __________________ Bomb Canada!

December 11, 2001, 05:31 PM	#5
Goet Senior Member Join Date: August 8, 2000 Location: North Ogden, UT Posts: 953	Well that's a bunch of horse hockey!!! How much are those taxes (AOW) now? __________________ Bomb Canada!

December 11, 2001, 05:33 PM	#6
swampgator Senior Member Join Date: October 14, 1999 Location: Gatorville, Florida Posts: 619	Aren't AOWs $5.00? Just remember you can't stock an AOW! That's a SBS for $200. __________________ www.afn.org/~guns

December 11, 2001, 06:57 PM	#8
lunde Senior Member Join Date: January 9, 2000 Location: San Jose, CA, USA, Earth Posts: 450	This "particularly sporting" exemption is hilarious. If anyone can find regulations that use this terminology, please post it here. Never mind. I just found it: http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/user/...f_letter87.txt Doesn't help much. I am curious how one can have a folding or telescopic stock without having a pistolgrip as well. __________________ Ken (NRA/GOA/CRPA/VHA/GSSF/FCSA/USCCA Life Member, SAGA/TNUSA Member)

December 12, 2001, 09:56 AM	#11
swampgator Senior Member Join Date: October 14, 1999 Location: Gatorville, Florida Posts: 619	krept A good rule of thumb for any gun mod, regardless of type: Shoot the weapon a lot. I wouldn't recommend any mod for a handgun with less than 500 rounds, 1000 being better. For a shotgun put at least 250 light (bird) loads, and maybe 100 buckshot thru it. Once you have a lot of rounds thru a gun any "problems" the guns have will be evident. Then the decision of which parts to replace will become apparent. With shotguns the biggest problem IMO is stock fit and shot pattern. The pattern can be taken care of with ammo selection, the stock will require additional attention. The full stock with pistol grip is specific purpose design, some shooters will benefit from it, most don't shoot their guns enough to realize any advantage. That being said a traditional full stock shotgun, again IMO is probably the best shoulder weapon there is. I've shot them long enough to realize that for me they are an advantageous to a full stock with a PG. Not only do the above reasons make it better for me but, damn near most shotguns come with a traditional stock, and any other would be an additional purchase. __________________ www.afn.org/~guns

December 10, 2001, 06:33 PM	#1
lunde Senior Member Join Date: January 9, 2000 Location: San Jose, CA, USA, Earth Posts: 450	Semi-automatic shotgun legality questions As I understand Federal law, a semi-automatic shotgun manufactured after some date in 1994 can possess only one of the following features: 1) Pistolgrip stock 2) Fixed magazine that holds more than five rounds 3) Accepts a detachable magazine 4) Folding or telescopic stock See: http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/legal/semi.htm Specifically, 921(a)(30)(D) in the above. Most people deal with #1 and #2 of my list above. Consider three semi-automatic shotguns: Benelli M1 Tactical, Benelli M1 Practical, and Remington 11-87 Police. As I understand it, the Benelli M1 Tactical (5+1 capacity) cannot use the four-shot extension if the pistolgrip stock is installed. However, the M1 Practical cannot use both a pistolgrip stock and the four-shot extension that comes with it. Also, if one were to add a pistolgrip stock to an 11-87 Police (with a seven-shot magazine as standard), its magazine extension would need to be removed. Lucky for me, I prefer the standard stocks on these shotguns. I have tried the full-length pistolgrip ones, but didn't find them to be as comfortable, and the standard stock provides a lower profile. My question is about whether most people realize this legal issue. For example, back when I was shopping for my Benelli M1 Tactical, I found one on GunBroker that was post-ban, and the seller (a gun shop of some sort) had the pistolgrip stock and four-shot magazine extension installed. I asked about the legality of this, and they didn't seem to have a clue that it may violate this (I know, stupid) law. __________________ Ken (NRA/GOA/CRPA/VHA/GSSF/FCSA/USCCA Life Member, SAGA/TNUSA Member)

December 10, 2001, 09:31 PM	#2
Benjamin Senior Member Join Date: December 27, 1999 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 358	To muddy the issue further, I understand that particular configurations may be ruled as 'particularly suitable for sporting purposes' and thus not subject to those rules. In this vein....I have seen pictures of a mossberg 9200 with factory folder and PG. Also saw the ATF letter ruling it as legal on Bardwell's website.

December 11, 2001, 10:47 PM	#9
Benjamin Senior Member Join Date: December 27, 1999 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 358	My mistake. Sorry guys.

December 11, 2001, 11:22 PM	#10
krept Senior Member Join Date: August 20, 2000 Location: AZ Posts: 1,363	I'm interested too... It sure would be keen to have one of those Benelli M-4s and only have to sacrifice the PG... OR sacrifice the telescoping stock for a PG and full sized magazine. Then again, a good brush and canvas doesn't ensure a work of art...

December 14, 2001, 11:26 PM	#12
Rob62 Senior Member Join Date: June 28, 1999 Location: Georgia, USA Posts: 560	My take on having read the law is a little different. The way I understand it and have gotten confirmation from several sources. Is that on any tube fed semi auto shotgun (example Rem 1100), made on or after 14 Sept. 1994, that has the capability to have an extended mag tube placed on it. You can NOT legally add a full length pistol gripped stock such as the Speedfeed. Or you would be in violation of the law. Maybe I'm wrong here. Comments? Rob __________________ NRA & NAHC Life Member

December 15, 2001, 01:05 AM	#13
swampgator Senior Member Join Date: October 14, 1999 Location: Gatorville, Florida Posts: 619	Brain Fade __________________ www.afn.org/~guns Last edited by swampgator; December 15, 2001 at 03:56 AM.

December 15, 2001, 04:13 PM	#14
xm15 Junior Member Join Date: August 28, 2001 Location: FL Posts: 5	Does anyone know of someone who has removed the mag extension from an 1187P in order to add the pistolgrip stock? "As I understand it, the Benelli M1 Tactical (5+1 capacity) cannot use the four-shot extension if the pistolgrip stock is installed. However, the M1 Practical cannot use both a pistolgrip stock and the four-shot extension that comes with it. Also, if one were to add a pistolgrip stock to an 11-87 Police (with a seven-shot magazine as standard), its magazine extension would need to be removed. "