Charge-boosted Rocket-Ball? RPG tech meets the caplock revolver. Discuss

Rachen · October 21, 2011, 02:19 PM

I just read a previous thread regarding the Jennings Rocket Ball ammunition. I was very surprised that as a longtime caplock shooter, I have not heard of it until now and had to do a search too.

The original Rocket Ball had a problem of being weak and anemic, and it was the same reason that it's later offspring, the Gyrojet, never went popular.

WHAT IF: We made the new rocket-ball round to hold a reasonable amount of propellant in it's base, but load the round above a charge of regular propellant in the cylinder?

The rocket-propelled grenade uses a booster charge to launch the grenade out of the tube, and when it is a safe distance away from the shooter, the rocket motor ignites.

In a caplock pistol, the main charge inside the cylinder would propel the Rocket Ball out of the gun at the normal velocity that a standard hardball projectile operates at. Once the bullet has the left the barrel, the propellant inside the slug should then ignite in time and give the bullet a much added impetus which would increase the velocity by a long shot. As a result, you get much more performance out of a handgun or rifle bullet and projectiles fly much flatter.
For example, the Rocket Ball slug leaves the barrel via normal firing at 800-1000 feet/second, but a split second later, the powder inside the same ball burns and gives the round an added 600-900 feet/second.

That kind of combination would give the guns a far more vast performance.

What do you think?

mykeal · October 21, 2011, 09:21 PM

How will you control when the embedded charge ignites? That's kind of key to your theory.

Shotgun693 · October 21, 2011, 09:25 PM

How long will a loaded cartridge be? The price per round might be a bit high too.

**4V50 Gary** · October 21, 2011, 09:51 PM

What mykeal asked. Timed fuse perhaps and how do we prevent the initial blast of the blackpowder from just igniting the bullet contained charge? There'll have to be a seal on the end that will have the delay fuse.

Scorch · October 22, 2011, 01:28 AM

One of the many things that killed the Gyrojet is that they were famously inaccurate and low-powered. And besides, even in the 1970s, Gyrojet ammo was about $5 pre round, not exactly what the doctor ordered. The history of the Gyrojet is hilarious, reading it is an adventure.

RPGs have a fin-stabilized projectile and only need to be minute-of-car accurate, typically handguns are for short range and you need them to be relatively accurate.

kozak6 · October 22, 2011, 05:02 AM

It sounds more like you mean firing something resembling a Gyrojet bullet out of a muzzleloader rather than a rocketball. You need a small rocket motor and a nozzle.

I wonder if it would work to fire something resembling a rocketball, except intended to ignite in the barrel for a two stage acceleration. Consistency would be difficult, and you'd need a long barrel.

zullo74 · October 22, 2011, 07:00 AM

You'll shoot your eye out!

Jim March · October 23, 2011, 07:08 PM

Ever held a 32ACP case up to a 357 case? Turns out the former can slide right into the latter, if you were to shave the tiny vestigial rim on the 32ACP shell.

Soo...what you do is:

1) Take the .32ACP case, shave the rim.

2) Fill the primer pocket with wax. That will delay the rocket's ignition, we hope! And yeah, we're going to use the primer pocket of the .32ACP shell as a rocket nozzle.

3) Fill the 32ACP shell with some sort of slow-burn powder...possibly black powder or a substitute?

4) Load a projectile into the 32ACP case normally, using 32ACP reloading tools.

5) Weigh the resulting "rocket".

6) Load the 32ACP shell backwards into a .357Magnum case over an appropriate charge.

7) Test in a gun you don't care much about, via a padded vice and 100yds of string

.

In theory this "projectile" could also be used in a front-stuffer .36cal wheelgun...

kozak6 · October 23, 2011, 10:31 PM

You need to tamp the powder or something so it doesn't go off like a brass firecracker.

That sounds kind of like this:
http://www.deathwind.com/project.htm

It's a shame the Deathwind project doesn't seem to have gone anywhere.

HisSoldier · October 26, 2011, 08:16 PM

RAP (Rocket assisted projectile) rounds for artillery typically achieve much greater maximum ranges but at a reduced accuracy, then there are base bleed projectiles that extend range by eliminating the drag caused by the partial vacuum at the base. I know we are at the other end of the spectrum size wise but the reduction in accuracy would probably hold true. Like explosive projectiles in pistols the idea sounds better perhaps than any actual gain.

Incredibly fun to think about though.

Andy Griffith · October 26, 2011, 09:35 PM

Why not just have caseless ammunition?

I seem to remember a South African company importing hunting rifles in a caliber similar to .223 into the US about 15+ years ago- the article was in American Rifleman.

orangello · October 28, 2011, 01:46 PM

Quote:

2) Fill the primer pocket with wax. That will delay the rocket's ignition, we hope! And yeah, we're going to use the primer pocket of the .32ACP shell as a rocket nozzle.

I'm wondering here on this part if that lil bugger might not pull a 180 & come back at the firearm/launchpad.

Jim March · October 29, 2011, 01:17 AM

Quote:

I'm wondering here on this part if that lil bugger might not pull a 180 & come back at the firearm/launchpad.

Well it SHOULD be still spinning from the rifling. I would assume that would help?

October 21, 2011, 02:19 PM	#1
Rachen Senior Member Join Date: May 10, 2006 Location: Weekend cowboy Posts: 542	Charge-boosted Rocket-Ball? RPG tech meets the caplock revolver. Discuss I just read a previous thread regarding the Jennings Rocket Ball ammunition. I was very surprised that as a longtime caplock shooter, I have not heard of it until now and had to do a search too. The original Rocket Ball had a problem of being weak and anemic, and it was the same reason that it's later offspring, the Gyrojet, never went popular. WHAT IF: We made the new rocket-ball round to hold a reasonable amount of propellant in it's base, but load the round above a charge of regular propellant in the cylinder? The rocket-propelled grenade uses a booster charge to launch the grenade out of the tube, and when it is a safe distance away from the shooter, the rocket motor ignites. In a caplock pistol, the main charge inside the cylinder would propel the Rocket Ball out of the gun at the normal velocity that a standard hardball projectile operates at. Once the bullet has the left the barrel, the propellant inside the slug should then ignite in time and give the bullet a much added impetus which would increase the velocity by a long shot. As a result, you get much more performance out of a handgun or rifle bullet and projectiles fly much flatter. For example, the Rocket Ball slug leaves the barrel via normal firing at 800-1000 feet/second, but a split second later, the powder inside the same ball burns and gives the round an added 600-900 feet/second. That kind of combination would give the guns a far more vast performance. What do you think?

October 21, 2011, 09:51 PM	#4
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 21,831	What mykeal asked. Timed fuse perhaps and how do we prevent the initial blast of the blackpowder from just igniting the bullet contained charge? There'll have to be a seal on the end that will have the delay fuse. __________________ Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. *Molon Labe!*

October 22, 2011, 01:28 AM	#5
Scorch Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2006 Location: Washington state Posts: 15,248	One of the many things that killed the Gyrojet is that they were famously inaccurate and low-powered. And besides, even in the 1970s, Gyrojet ammo was about $5 pre round, not exactly what the doctor ordered. The history of the Gyrojet is hilarious, reading it is an adventure. RPGs have a fin-stabilized projectile and only need to be minute-of-car accurate, typically handguns are for short range and you need them to be relatively accurate. __________________ Never try to educate someone who resists knowledge at all costs. But what do I know? Summit Arms Services

October 23, 2011, 07:08 PM	#8
Jim March Senior Member Join Date: February 14, 1999 Location: Pittsburg, CA, USA Posts: 7,417	Ever held a 32ACP case up to a 357 case? Turns out the former can slide right into the latter, if you were to shave the tiny vestigial rim on the 32ACP shell. Soo...what you do is: 1) Take the .32ACP case, shave the rim. 2) Fill the primer pocket with wax. That will delay the rocket's ignition, we hope! And yeah, we're going to use the primer pocket of the .32ACP shell as a rocket nozzle. 3) Fill the 32ACP shell with some sort of slow-burn powder...possibly black powder or a substitute? 4) Load a projectile into the 32ACP case normally, using 32ACP reloading tools. 5) Weigh the resulting "rocket". 6) Load the 32ACP shell backwards into a .357Magnum case over an appropriate charge. 7) Test in a gun you don't care much about, via a padded vice and 100yds of string . In theory this "projectile" could also be used in a front-stuffer .36cal wheelgun... __________________ Jim March

October 26, 2011, 08:16 PM	#10
HisSoldier Senior Member Join Date: August 9, 2007 Location: Oregoncoast Posts: 1,793	RAP (Rocket assisted projectile) rounds for artillery typically achieve much greater maximum ranges but at a reduced accuracy, then there are base bleed projectiles that extend range by eliminating the drag caused by the partial vacuum at the base. I know we are at the other end of the spectrum size wise but the reduction in accuracy would probably hold true. Like explosive projectiles in pistols the idea sounds better perhaps than any actual gain. Incredibly fun to think about though. __________________ CNC produced 416 stainless triggers to replace the plastic triggers on Colt Mustangs, Mustang Plus II's, MK IV Government .380's and Sig P238's and P938's. Plus Colt Mustang hardened 416 guide rods, and Llama .32 and .380 recoil spring buttons, checkered nicely and blued.

October 21, 2011, 09:21 PM	#2
mykeal Senior Member Join Date: October 8, 2006 Location: Northern Michigan Posts: 2,772	How will you control when the embedded charge ignites? That's kind of key to your theory.

October 21, 2011, 09:25 PM	#3
Shotgun693 Senior Member Join Date: September 3, 2011 Location: Poteet, Texas Posts: 959	How long will a loaded cartridge be? The price per round might be a bit high too.

October 22, 2011, 05:02 AM	#6
kozak6 Senior Member Join Date: June 16, 2005 Location: AZ Posts: 3,113	It sounds more like you mean firing something resembling a Gyrojet bullet out of a muzzleloader rather than a rocketball. You need a small rocket motor and a nozzle. I wonder if it would work to fire something resembling a rocketball, except intended to ignite in the barrel for a two stage acceleration. Consistency would be difficult, and you'd need a long barrel.

October 22, 2011, 07:00 AM	#7
zullo74 Junior member Join Date: August 8, 2009 Posts: 374	You'll shoot your eye out!

October 23, 2011, 10:31 PM	#9
kozak6 Senior Member Join Date: June 16, 2005 Location: AZ Posts: 3,113	You need to tamp the powder or something so it doesn't go off like a brass firecracker. That sounds kind of like this: http://www.deathwind.com/project.htm It's a shame the Deathwind project doesn't seem to have gone anywhere.

October 26, 2011, 09:35 PM	#11
Andy Griffith Senior Member Join Date: May 14, 2009 Location: Macon Co. NC Posts: 591	Why not just have caseless ammunition? I seem to remember a South African company importing hunting rifles in a caliber similar to .223 into the US about 15+ years ago- the article was in American Rifleman. __________________ Barney Fife: "Nip it, nip it, nip it!" Andy Griffith:"Oh now Barn'...."