Heckler & Koch VP9 Review

[Dirty_Harry]

. I for one cannot wait. I have mine preordered. A striker fired P30, sound like one heck of a competition gun. My only grip is the low capacity. I know 2 rounds doesnt make any real world difference, but the most popular striker fired guns have at least a 17 round capacity. (of this size)
Isn't capacity restricted in IDPA? Or are you talking a different competition?

I don't do any official competition. I was mainly speculating. I do competition types events with my local gun club. Eventually I plan on getting into it.

[barnbwt]

maybe we should start a list of all the falling block striker fired polymer framed pistols on the market......its going to be a long list.

It's actually a pretty short list unless you meant to say "Browning-esque Tilt Barrel Striker Fired Polymer" pistols --the only autoloading falling block I know of is the Madsen LMG, and Paul Bunyan would have trouble carrying it in a holster

HK RD team is very busy with a whole slew of military rifles. Stuff most of us civilians probably would never even be able to touch, own, or shoot. The kind of real assault weapons that would cause Diane Fienstein to have an instant heart attack and drop dead if she saw one*. That is their core business.

If 4000$ piston ARs (though reportedly excellent) and +6000$ PDWs are H&K's "core" business, it's no wonder they've been posting worrisome performance compared to...everyone for some time. To be honest, we could have zero restrictions on their products in this country, and you'd still have very few people willing to partake of their best current or past offerings. R&D is necessary, but H&K takes it to the excess of a luxury. No doubt about that. I would argue that Kel-Tec is by far the most innovative company out there worth mentioning, but are out of their depth as far as being a national-scale company where customers will increasingly demand perfection and unending quantities, regardless the impact these will have on the business. I personally think H&K's fatal mistake was chasing contracts for so long, that they trapped themselves into a business climate as suffocating as government itself, but without its backing. Part of the blame for this motivation undoubtedly lays on our government's chronic mistreatment of their business in our country, which drove them to further devil-deals with governments. Germany really needs to straight-up nationalize them, like Belgium did with FNH (and I honestly don't know why they don't since they practically have "armorer to the king" status already)

Hopefully, they have seen their tactical error and will begin producing what the market actually wants, vs. what their government customers thoughtlessly demand, or what their R&D department thinks they are capable of; they simply can't afford to indulge these interests much longer.

I always chuckle when I think that the same company making the comically-extravagant MP7 got big making something as brutally cheap and inelegant as the G3 series of guns, the laurels of which it rode for a solid 30 years before frittering away at least a decade on the flagrantly impractical G11, then finally re-inventing the AR18 in a series of costly science projects. It's like the Lamborghini company getting a start in tractors, or active-radar maker Ball Aerospace getting a start in mason jars . The difference in those is they deviated from their roots to meet a market demand; H&K was diverted to follow bureaucrat fever-dreams

TCB

*DiFi votes to send people into combat, issue military contracts, undoubtedly was in deep with Mr. Yee, and has probably straight up had people killed to get where she is --she isn't a frail flower around guns, ya'll, just the "wrong folk" getting their hands on them around her

[magnut]

yes tilt barrel is the better term.

I agree about keltec. If they could keep up demand and provide a little better execution they would probably dominate the market on the civilian side eventually.

One thing HK could have done if they really wanted to shake things up and go cheap would be to bring back the VP70. Lighten up and shorten the trigger, keep the blowback design, and make a few other small changes. Market it right and Get the cost down in the 300-350 range and they pull sales away from everybody Hipoint on up to Walther. May have to manufacture them stateside though which i am not sure is easy with HK.

I still think a squeze cocker, hi capacity P9 would be the way to go.

hey barnbwt, did you get your remington running yet? I almost bought an original a few days ago and your threads on here and high road came to mind.

[Wreck-n-Crew]

second strike capability

Have to go with Theo on this one. Instinct is to rap tap bang...after all how often does a primer fail in a SD/FOF/ scenario? 1 in a billion? Only way to be certain is to clear and charge the weapon with a live round IMO and in the opinion of experts as well. I see the front slide serrations more usable than a second strike. YMMV

[TunnelRat]

If HK wants their share of the striker market they are doing it the wrong way. First .....it looks just like the p30 or walther. The gun needs to cosmetically stand out against both competitors products and even their own. 2nd its priced to high for what it is. smith and wesson was smart going after that market because they basically made an american glock and sold it for well under glocks inflated pricing. Taurus does a good job with this as well with a bunch of their offerings.

I'm sure in the future HK will contact you regarding their market plans.

The M&P had a street price of $550 when it first came out. It also didn't have any of the costs of importation as this does. I expect the street price to get down around $650 or lower after some time. By the time you add an Apex kit to those early M&Ps the price was almost the same (newer M&Ps seem to have better triggers). Comparing a pistol that has been out in the market for years to a brand new one in terms of price just doesn't work. For H&K the plus here is to have an option hundreds of dollars less than their previous pistols.

As for Taurus, had their price not been so low they might have been able to spend some time on QC and not have to recall close to 100,000 pistols supplied to Brazil.

50 posts in 9 years and talking about why you don't like this warrants a few of them? Why? I'd expect someone that posted that infrequently to tell us of something incredible.

[magnut]

Kind of rude mate. i post on a lot of different forums and when i find interesting topics I post here as well. i dont see how high post counts really matter on one particular forum a whole lot but if its important to you thats fine.

as far as second strike capability goes i am not going to make excuses for HK. There are striker fired designs out there that have second strike capability and they work fine. IMO HK didnt do it because they wanted to put out a pistol that was good enough but not exceptional. They essentially put out a poor mans p30 that is not really that inexpensive compared to whats currently on the market and are relying on brand name alone to sell this pistol.

one of the better attributes of striker fired pistols is the ability to lower the bore. From what i see they didnt really do that either. if you take away the hk logo and asthetics (which dont matter a whole lot) this pistol at its core is just like every other striker on the market in the $350-500 range. So in the end one has to ask themselves what the point?

it kind of reminds me of the beretta nano attempt. beretta who ussually has interesting guns throws out a subcompact striker with a high bore and ends up not being all that compact to begin with. thus people are not that impressed other than hardcore beretta lovers. I should say i am big beretta fan as well as HK but beretta kind of copped out as well with that offering.

lets look at HK pistols

HK4 first offering based on mauser hsc with some neat changes and well executed

vp70z machine pistol that was civianized to semi auto and is one of the most versatile and tough guns on the market while bringing polymer frames into the fold. maybe the best camping, outdoor, idiot proof 9mm guns ever produced.

P9s legendary gun that has many uniue design implementations.

p7m8 gas system squeeze cocker that the industry really hasnt figured out a way to copy

USP series....probably the top polymer handgun ever produced although the walther is right there as well. they esentially took a glock and made it better. meanwhile almost everyone else just did the glock thing.

In the end i expect more from an elite manufacturer like HK. Going more affordable is fine but this offering is a let down IMO. Doesnt mean it wont sell. it may do pretty well but if i want a real HK quality gun i would rather pony up and get a new or used gun that represents the excellence that HK has showed in the past instead of a watered down version of whats already common to the market.

This is not to say its a bad pistol. I am sure it will be fine. As i stated earlier I just dont see what all the hype is about. its not that impressive. just another striker design in a market already saturated with striker designs. many of which take advantage of the attributes of striker fired guns.

i guess i am a hard sell though. Cost and brand name do not come first for me. The walther p99 and beretta px storm impressed me. The USP impressed me. even lower cost guns like keltec p11s/p32 etc and a multitude of taurus impress me. heck...the republic arms/cobra patriot 45acp is a heck of a design and quality for what it is. i paid under $200 for a new one and its an excellent ccw pistol. The stuff coming out of turkey impresses me although its ripping of exhisting designs. Their execution is very good.

its funny with taurus and keltec. For all the bashing i have read I have never owned, shot, or seen a bad one. Mine have all been great and i have shot a lot of them. its baffling to me how people seem to run across so many bad ones.

[Theohazard]

Originally Posted by magnut

as far as second strike capability goes i am not going to make excuses for HK. There are striker fired designs out there that have second strike capability and they work fine. IMO HK didnt do it because they wanted to put out a pistol that was good enough but not exceptional.

There are downsides to a second-strike capability: The trigger will never be as good as a traditional partially-cocked striker design. And add to that the fact that second-strike capability is virtually useless: You should be performing an immediate-action drill the moment the gun goes "click", not pulling the trigger again.

The only time that a second-strike capability would be useful is if you had a light primer strike while your off-hand was wounded or otherwise incapacitated. What are the chances of that happening with quality ammo? No, I'd rather have a better trigger and no second-strike capability.

[magnut]

thats valid. i am the opposite. i prefer a pistol that can be used with a single hand if need be. growing up learning with horrendous airgun trigger pulls resulted in almost all triggers being adaptable for me. You should shoot a vp70, cobra patriot, or cat9 someday. they have some pretty fun triggers on them. Not as horrendous as people make them out to be though. i remember having some trouble with a carpati pistol a while back. that double action was like turbulance on a two seater...LOL.

[TunnelRat]

They essentially put out a poor mans p30 that is not really that inexpensive compared to whats currently on the market and are relying on brand name alone to sell this pistol.

$650 vs. $850? I know a lot of folks that wouldn't hand over that cash for a polymer pistol (you yourself asked why people would spend the extra over pistols that were even cheaper). It's also not like they're discontinuing the P30 if you still want it. You seem pretty set on second strike capability, when honestly almost everyone these days teaches tap, rack, bang. I carry and own mostly hammer fired guns, but frankly second strike isn't the principal reason why.

one of the better attributes of striker fired pistols is the ability to lower the bore. From what i see they didnt really do that either.

It's a smidgen lower than a PPQ, and people seem to handle that just fine and not bemoan the high bore axis too much.

So in the end one has to ask themselves what the point?

We've been over this a number of times mate. To have a striker fired polymer option. It's honestly that simple. That's what the market wants right now. HK spent years tying to convince people that LEM was what they wanted, it didn't work.

it may do pretty well but if i want a real HK quality gun i would rather pony up and get a new or used gun that represents the excellence that HK has showed in the past instead of a watered down version of whats already common to the market.

What do you mean by "real" HK quality? Have you fired one, or even seen one in the flesh? How do you know it isn't just as high quality as any other HK design? Just because it doesn't have a hammer? Just because it is lower in price? But you just got done saying how a number of cheaper options are also high quality, so price can't be the only factor in quality.

[Theohazard]

Originally Posted by magnut

i prefer a pistol that can be used with a single hand if need be.

And a pistol without second-strike capability can be used with a single hand just fine.

[magnut]

yes second strike is valid to me in a carry weapon. Things happen and i would opt for second strike over not. i have had hangfires before and i dont practice the immediate tap, rack bang procedure as it could result in a bad thing. i have also had random rounds require a double strike.

that being said if you want to use the tap, rack, bang action its just as easy with a non striker fired pistol so i see no downside to second strike.....quite the opposite.

When i speak of HK quality of old i speak of not only materials but also innovative design. i am sure the materials will be the same as the p30.

its a bit of a hard sell though IMO. the gun doesnt beat competitors prices so thats not really a selling point. it also offers nothing competitors dont from a design standpoint. So in the end all its only real selling point is the brand name. In a strange way they are just competing with themselves. There are lots of established brand names on the market now so i dont see it doing to well unless they give huge cuts to dealers to push the pistols over other manufacturers. there again i dont see HK doing this.

in the end sales will tell the story. I am sure people will rave about them after purchasing. then again, that can be said for most new products on the market....products that work anyways. again i just dont see the hype..its not that impressive.

[Mrgunsngear]

The M&P had a street price of $550 when it first came out. It also didn't have any of the costs of importation as this does. I expect the street price to get down around $650 or lower after some time

FWIW Impact has them for $599 pre-order.

[TunnelRat]

yes second strike is valid to me in a carry weapon. Things happen and i would opt for second strike over not. i have had hangfires before and i dont practice the immediate tap, rack bang procedure as it could result in a bad thing. i have also had random rounds require a double strike.

What a lot of folks seem to forget, is you can always rack the slide slighty to cock the striker and presto, second strike.

FWIW Impact has them for $599 pre-order.

Thanks for the heads up!

[Fishbed77]

I see that as a good thing. Second-strike capability has very limited usefulness, and it makes the trigger heavier and the reset longer.

It doesn't in the Walther P99AS, which has a light, crisp ~4.5 lb. trigger with an insanely short reset.

[magnut]

yes its true you dont have to fully rack to reset a striker but your still pulling the round of battery. Do it on a hang fire and kaboom.

[Mystro]

Even if you thought the VP9 and PPQ were dead even performers, I would recommend the PPQ simply because its a known and proven design with a few years under its belt. Walther's has many more years of striker fire pistol design experience than HK does. Sure, HK was the first with a striker fire design years ago but other than a bit of trivia, it doesnt apply now because HK never continued with development and abandonment it for a more conventional design. This is why they are now last to the modern striker fire party.
Then there is the issue with the PPQ being able to shoot +p ammo as clearly stated in the manual. The PPQ has more holster options and can be used in the P99 holsters.
The VP9 is going to be a nightmare finding holsters since it cant even share the P30 holsters. At the very least in a few years, the VP9 might actually be considered as good as the PPQ but not until it has a few years of real world use will any of its faults be exposed. You are going to be the beta tester with the VP9.

Its almost not fair shooting at 10 yards...

[Uncle Malice]

Then there is the issue with the PPQ being able to shoot +p ammo as clearly stated in the manual.

Mystro, can you elaborate on this? Are you saying the PPQ manual says +P is okay or not okay?

[tahunua001]

good writeup. I'm impressed you were able to get your hands on it so quickly. the price tag is a major surprise considering the average cost of HKs, that puts them neck and neck with springfield XDMs for price point. I think I may be silling to drink the HK koolaid with this gun although those 15 round mags would be a major pain in the rear, even my SR9C has 17 round capacity(with full length mags).

[Willie Lowman]

oh look....another striker fired polymer framed pistol!

incredible!!!

Yeah because steel or aluminum framed, hammer fired pistols are such a rare design.

second strike

I thought that was a selling point Taurus made up. Who actually trains to keep pulling the trigger to see if the gun will go off rather than doing the tap-rack-bang routine?

i find it hard to believe HK cant afford a good R&D team.... ...HK used to be one of these innovativors.....this is the same company that brought about the vp70z, P9s, P7m series, and the USP.

On that point I agree with you 100%. Who knows, if this new gun has the great ergonomics of the P30 combined with a trigger that doesn't need to be replaced right out the box, we may have a winner.

[TunnelRat]

yes its true you dont have to fully rack to reset a striker but your still pulling the round of battery. Do it on a hang fire and kaboom.

I typically don't pull the trigger on my hammer fired guns with a hang fire either, I wait.

The VP9 is going to be a nightmare finding holsters since it cant even share the P30 holsters.

I think nightmare is a bit of a stretch. The PPQ had holsters within a few months, I see no reason the same can't be true here.

At the very least in a few years, the VP9 might actually be considered as good as the PPQ but not until it has a few years of real world use will any of its faults be exposed. You are going to be the beta tester with the VP9.

Because four years of R&D and the German police pistol trials doesn't count for anything when compared to weekend warriors with their PPQs? Come on now. Yes I know the PPQ has been tested, but HK doesn't typically use their customers as guinea pigs.

If we followed your logic, no one should have bought a PPQ because they could have just bought a Glock which has years and years on the PPQ and holsters even in space.

[tahunua001]

there are also a very large number of universal holsters. unless you are a policeman that needs a retention holster, I don't think finding a good custom fit holster is going to be high on anyone's agenda unless HK comes out with a compact version.

[happyguy]

I would like to see a photo of the left side of the gun while it's being held by someone in a right hand thumbs forward grip.

[Mystro]

Mystro, can you elaborate on this? Are you saying the PPQ manual says +P is okay or not okay?

We have discussed this alot so I will cut and paste the issue at hand for those that are just joining us.
Only the +p+ is not recommended for the PPQ.
Directly from the Walther manual:

“Plus-P-Plus” (+P+) ammunition must not be used in WALTHER firearms. This marking on
the ammunition designates that it exceeds established industry standards, but the
designation does not represent defined pressure limits and therefore such ammunition may
vary significantly as to the pressures generated.

All manuals say +P can accelerate wear. That is very normal and what Walther, Sig, etc. say in their manual. They never specifically say they "dont recommend them". Sometimes you see in a manual that "extensive use of +P ammo can accelerate wear." Thats pretty typical. All gun companies generally have a standard policy with +P and it never deviates between models.

The difference is the HK manual for just the P30 and VP9 reads "+P is NOT recommended." This is a odd anomaly in just the P30 and VP9 manual. All other HK manuals including the new HK45 and HK45C print that "+P ammunition is approved." That is a huge difference in what they are saying between platforms of guns.
When I called HK about this, they acknowledged the "+P not recommended" for the P30/VP9 and didnt know the technical reasons why. They also stated that the USP was designed for +p and tested with over pressure loads. They are going to contact HK Germany to find the exact reason they dont recommend +p for just these two guns.

I am waiting for the HK explanation before I draw any conclusions.

For example, this is cut and pasted out of the USP/USPc manual and is pretty standard with other manufactures (except for the +p+):

NOTE:in compliance with NijStandard—0112.00, currently there are no known
ammunition types that meet the general guide
lines set forth in this section that
are not compatible with the USP series pistols. All USPs are approved for use with +P and +P+ ammunition as it applies to the specific caliber. The use of +P and +P+
ammunition accelerates wear and reduces the service life on the component parts of
any pistol, including the USP series pistols.

This is a cut and paste from the P30/VP9 manual:

NOTE: Use of +P and +P+ ammunition accelerates wear and reduces the service life on the component parts of any pistol, including the P Series pistols, and is not recommended. For further information on ammunition selection, contactHK Customer
Service at 706-568-1906

I contacted HK Georgia on the matter and they were aware of the +P restrictions for the P30/VP9. They didnt know why but was going to contact HK Germany on a official reason why just the P30 and VP9 are singled out from the rest of their handguns for this recommendation.
Currently awaiting reply. I am hoping it is a misprint carried over to the VP9 but HK Georgia knows about it so it certainly is worth the investigation. What kind of police pistol is not recommended for +p ammo use?

Thats is it in a nut shell.
Sorry for the recap.

[Uncle Malice]

Thanks Mystro. Good to know. My PPQ is being delivered on Monday.


As for the issue of holsters, I would bet that the HK45 holsters will work just fine for the VP9. Perhaps I'm wrong, but it looks that way to me. It won't work with the P30 holsters because it's a little longer in the nose. It should still be shorter than the HK45 though and as such it will probably fit well.

[magnut]

i dont practice tap, rack, bang. It can be unsafe in the event of a hangfire or squib. In the event of a hangfire your round can go off out of battery. In the event of a squib you can detonate your pistol. I have had hangfires before as well as squibs. It is rare but it does happen if you shoot alot. More often I have had hard primers that needed a second strike. Many times its steel cased from overseas. I will say the hang fires and squibs I have had were not steel cased. One of the hangfires was the old black talon rounds when they were fairly new to the market. So it can happen with hi quality ,defensive ammunition.

As I have said before if your into the tap, rack, bang action you can do this with all semiautomatic designs including those with Double strike capability. I would advise you to never let your hand cover the ejection port when doing this. If so you could severely injure your hand.

Lets be honest here. The main reason striker fired guns are so common today is that they are cheaper to manufacture. the design has been around for a long time and most of the bottom end guns use it. I feel that pistols useing striker fired systems that also have the ability for second strike are a good compromise but anything less is just the manufacturer finding ways to cheap out on the consumer. An upper end pistol should have second strike capability IMO. since HK is one of the top tier gun manufacturers it doesnt really make sense not to incorporate it into the design when there are other, less expensive, pistols on the market that have it.