The Dangers of Lack of PID

Alabama Shooter · February 11, 2013, 04:45 PM

We have all heard of "buck fever".

Police and military members experince something similiar when presented with something that looks kind of like, but not exactly like a target we are looking for or a possible threat. We react and hope it is all ok. Sometimes it is not ok.

I don't know if this is what happened here but I do know that the police did not, nor could they possibly have had PID. I imagine there will be huge law suit here and possibly charges brought against the offficers. Before the bullet leaves the gun make sure you know where it is going and why.

Since all the strikes indicate the vehicle was engaged from behind, was not the type or color of vehicle they were looking for, was not being driven by anyone remotely resembling the suspect etc, etc, etc....

http://articles.latimes.com/2013/feb...oting-20130209

As a civilian you will not be given the benefit of the doubt.

RamItOne · February 11, 2013, 05:03 PM

It's good to be a lawyer in Cali

"Law enforcement sources told The Times that at least seven officers opened fire. On Friday, the street was pockmarked with bullet holes in cars, trees, garage doors and roofs. Residents said they wanted to know what happened.

"How do you mistake two Hispanic women, one who is 71, for a large black male?" said Richard Goo, 62, who counted five bullet holes in the entryway to his house."

Cha-Ching$$$$$$$$$

Roofs.... Seriously?

markj · February 11, 2013, 05:20 PM

Hey, they get a new truck.......glad I dont live out there. Used to work out in LA a couple weeks a month but not any more..

Dwight55 · February 11, 2013, 05:21 PM

Just another episode in the jackboot thug mentality that has permeated the LEO ranks.

May God bless,
Dwight

PawPaw · February 11, 2013, 05:21 PM

They also lit up a skinny white guy who was driving a pickup truck. Fellow is named Perdue. Like the two Hispanic women, he's lawyered up, stands to make a couple of million over this escapade.

The LEOs in California are not covering themselves in glory during this incident.

Glenn E. Meyer · February 11, 2013, 05:25 PM

1. Research shows that under stress in simulations, police shoot quicker and make more false positive (shoot innocents), accuracy deteriorates.

2. Such instances lead to sympathetic or contagious shootings - where if one shoots, other perceive there is a threat and shoot also.

It's in the literature and expert testimony would demonstrate such. The LAPD should settle for any reasonable price.

There was a second similar shooting.

BGutzman · February 11, 2013, 05:28 PM

This was reckless of the police, just plain reckless... I understand they are worried and they have lost people by this guy but they loose all credibility as a police force doing this....

Nytelyte · February 11, 2013, 07:45 PM

It also shows that there is no intent to apprehend and dispense justice. They've got some killin to do.

jmortimer · February 11, 2013, 07:53 PM

This is exhibit "A" when I hear people worried about over-penetration. If the hit rate is way under 50% for LEOs, much less John Q. Public, what does it matter?

Venom1956 · February 11, 2013, 08:10 PM

Seriously HOW IS THIS OK?! People just accept this? one or two news articles?!

There's a mass shooting and you here about it for five months, ARs its for the children whatever blah blah blah...

THE POLICE DEPT lights up two separate trucks with gun fire!? NBD just doing their job... Good Lord whats wrong with this country... get rid of their ARs cuz its for the children!

Dragline45 · February 11, 2013, 08:53 PM

This is absurd. How did they fail to recognize that the truck was blue, not gray? Not only that, but the driver was supposed to be a 270lb black male, not two hispanic women. Talk about trigger happy. Some people should not be carrying a badge.

As far as the other incident

Quote:

His pickup, police later explained, matched the description of the one belonging to Christopher Jordan Dorner

So without identifying the target, they think it's OK to ram a police cruiser into any car matching the description of a wanted fugitive and then go as far as to open fire. I am absolutely disgusted.

I think it's time for California to up their training and qualifications to wear a badge and carry a gun. Maybe have them learn the color wheel, or have them play a few games of Guess Who, you know the board game where you have to guess the other players character based on sex, race, hair color, eye color... I have zero respect for law enforcement in that state if this is how they operate.

And we throw our soldiers in jail for this type of thing, but in alot of these incidents the officers get to go back to their job after the trial.

iraiam · February 12, 2013, 02:51 AM

I am guessing that PID is "Positive Identification", sorry, I'm a controls engineer, to me PID is Proportional-Integral-Derivative.

I was shocked by this story. As a civilian CCW holder, i am absolutely liable for every round I discharge, and must be fully justified in doing so. If not, I would be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

I don't understand how government agents can honestly not be held to the same standards. To clarify that statement; This is such a blatant incident, for these officers to just go back to their jobs will require a profound level of dishonesty within the government/police force.

Mobuck · February 12, 2013, 07:34 AM

As I've said before "always be prepared to defend yourself against ANY threat". Too bad some of those folks didn't have some serious firepower to return fire on the bumfuzzles.

ScottRiqui · February 12, 2013, 07:49 AM

Quote:

Too bad some of those folks didn't have some serious firepower to return fire on the bumfuzzles.

Being mistakenly shot by the police is colossal bad luck. Returning fire on the police, however, is suicidal stupidity. The only thing it would have changed is that they'd be dead now, rather than injured.

Venom1956 · February 12, 2013, 01:27 PM

Quote:

Being mistakenly shot by the police is colossal bad luck. Returning fire on the police, however, is suicidal stupidity. The only thing it would have changed is that they'd be dead now, rather than injured.

Or Worse Imagine if they won?! Oh jeez the media would crucify them! It wouldn't be officer slain by civilian in SD. it would read ANOTHER OFFICER MURDERED BY VIGILANTE!

Victim:
Well i was minding my business and a car rammed me and opened fire. So i returned fire...

Media:
But they were POLICE officers, its their job! They were just doing what they had too, you must fall to your knees and comply!

Or some other garbage...

I'vebeenduped · February 12, 2013, 02:33 PM

WWSAD?
What would Sheriff Andy do?
I think that, since California is soon to be a disarmed state, the police forces should each carry one round in their upper Left shirt pocket. This worked wonderfully in Mayberry, of which, I am absolutely certain LA will be like after the ban.

I'vebeenduped · February 12, 2013, 02:35 PM

SgtLumpy · February 12, 2013, 03:24 PM

It may have changed, but for the first couple of days, every news story description of the guy did NOT mention he was black, African-American or any other reference to his skin color/ethnicity. Gave height and weight, hair and eye color but perhaps remaining politically correct did not mention he was black. Of course, the photos show him clearly as a black guy. But I'm betting there was a deliberate non-statement of ethnicity.

I also find it sad/comical that they have to offer a $1M reward to get the citizens of LA to turn the guy in.

Sgt Lumpy - n0eq

Dragline45 · February 12, 2013, 03:54 PM

Quote:

It may have changed, but for the first couple of days, every news story description of the guy did NOT mention he was black, African-American or any other reference to his skin color/ethnicity. Gave height and weight, hair and eye color but perhaps remaining politically correct did not mention he was black. Of course, the photos show him clearly as a black guy. But I'm betting there was a deliberate non-statement of ethnicity.

It doesn't matter what the news/media description of him was, every police officer was briefed on the guy and knew exactly who he was and what he looked like down to his eye color. But clearly that doesn't mean a thing, since they cant even distinguish the colors of cars. How they had mistaken a pearl blue truck for gray blows my mind. And California is worried about it's citizens carrying and owning guns? The police officers are not only unable to properly identify targets, but are god awful shots to boot. Good thing it doesn't rain much in California, because the roofs in that neighborhood are riddled with bullets.

Willie Sutton · February 12, 2013, 04:19 PM

they loose <sic> all credibility as a police force doing this....

In order to lose something, you need to have had it to begin with. They have not lost a thing.

They ought to be sued into bankruptcy, and the LAPD taken over by some adults for a clean-out and reorganization. The "officers" involved should be imprisoned for attempted murder.

Willie

.

scrubcedar · February 12, 2013, 04:25 PM

Okay, I truly don't understand how this happened. We have current and former LE officers here, maybe you can answer these questions.

How do you open fire on someone without being able to see them well enough to tell the difference between a Hispanic Female and a Black Male?
How do you manage to hit Three vehicles and two buildings, how many feet(yards?) worth of spread at what distance is that?
How do you open fire when your backstop is a house?
How do you not understand, as a night shift LEO, that papers are routinely delivered at 5am by people in cars.
I'm trying really hard to give them the benefit of the doubt, but I know darn well what would happen if I had done this in California, whether I was in fear for my life or not.
How about it guys? Any idea's?

markj · February 12, 2013, 05:45 PM

Geez, it was 5 am and a dark nite. Go out in the night like that and try to identify colors of vehicles.

And make sure someone will harm you if you are wrong so you are in fear of your life as these guys are.

No matter, says he is holed up in a cabin.

and why this now? he was fired in 2008 or so.

Said he told on another officer kicked somebody.

Cops in LA are bad dudes, they will put a whupping on ya from what I had heard when I worked out there and rented a harley to use as transpo..

scrubcedar · February 12, 2013, 05:57 PM

markj I didn't mention the color or type of vehicle.
Stopping the pickup, guns drawn even, maybe, it's dark, I guess I can see it.
What happened was different than that.

DucMon · February 12, 2013, 06:45 PM

Yes, I'd like to hear a response from some LEOs out there to scrubcedar's questions too -- and not just ramble on about it was dark making it ok. Because even if it was dark, how can you just go ahead and start shooting people? Can any guy with a CCW shoot people because it is dark and they are scared?

Hook686 · February 12, 2013, 09:50 PM

Quote:

And California is worried about it's citizens carrying and owning guns? The police officers are not only unable to properly identify targets, but are god awful shots to boot.

You guys are cute. Since a trained, qualified force has such poor results, do you really not understand Senator Feintein's fear of mere untrained, unorganized citizens blasting away ? After all California is the top of the ladder among states. If it is this bad in California, the rest of you ought not even be allowed BB guns.

February 11, 2013, 04:45 PM	#1
Alabama Shooter Senior Member Join Date: December 20, 2012 Location: Sweet Home Posts: 886	The Dangers of Lack of PID We have all heard of "buck fever". Police and military members experince something similiar when presented with something that looks kind of like, but not exactly like a target we are looking for or a possible threat. We react and hope it is all ok. Sometimes it is not ok. I don't know if this is what happened here but I do know that the police did not, nor could they possibly have had PID. I imagine there will be huge law suit here and possibly charges brought against the offficers. Before the bullet leaves the gun make sure you know where it is going and why. Since all the strikes indicate the vehicle was engaged from behind, was not the type or color of vehicle they were looking for, was not being driven by anyone remotely resembling the suspect etc, etc, etc.... http://articles.latimes.com/2013/feb...oting-20130209 As a civilian you will not be given the benefit of the doubt. __________________ Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight very clean. It's perfect when it arrives and it puts itself in our hands. It hopes we've learned something from yesterday.

February 11, 2013, 05:03 PM	#2
RamItOne Senior Member Join Date: May 24, 2011 Posts: 990	It's good to be a lawyer in Cali "Law enforcement sources told The Times that at least seven officers opened fire. On Friday, the street was pockmarked with bullet holes in cars, trees, garage doors and roofs. Residents said they wanted to know what happened. "How do you mistake two Hispanic women, one who is 71, for a large black male?" said Richard Goo, 62, who counted five bullet holes in the entryway to his house." Cha-Ching$$$$$$$$$ Roofs.... Seriously? __________________ M&P- the other dark meat https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/pet...rtant/DJyvnHz0

February 11, 2013, 05:21 PM	#4
Dwight55 Senior Member Join Date: June 18, 2004 Location: Central Ohio Posts: 2,568	Just another episode in the jackboot thug mentality that has permeated the LEO ranks. May God bless, Dwight __________________ www.dwightsgunleather.com If you can breathe, . . . thank God! If you can read, . . . thank a teacher! If you are reading this in English, . . . thank a Veteran!

February 11, 2013, 05:21 PM	#5
PawPaw Senior Member Join Date: December 24, 2010 Location: Central Louisiana Posts: 3,137	They also lit up a skinny white guy who was driving a pickup truck. Fellow is named Perdue. Like the two Hispanic women, he's lawyered up, stands to make a couple of million over this escapade. The LEOs in California are not covering themselves in glory during this incident. __________________ Dennis Dezendorf http://pawpawshouse.blogspot.com

February 11, 2013, 05:25 PM	#6
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	1. Research shows that under stress in simulations, police shoot quicker and make more false positive (shoot innocents), accuracy deteriorates. 2. Such instances lead to sympathetic or contagious shootings - where if one shoots, other perceive there is a threat and shoot also. It's in the literature and expert testimony would demonstrate such. The LAPD should settle for any reasonable price. There was a second similar shooting. __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

February 11, 2013, 05:20 PM	#3
markj Senior Member Join Date: October 27, 2005 Location: Crescent Iowa Posts: 2,971	Hey, they get a new truck.......glad I dont live out there. Used to work out in LA a couple weeks a month but not any more..

February 11, 2013, 05:28 PM	#7
BGutzman Senior Member Join Date: December 4, 2009 Location: Frozen Tundra Posts: 2,414	This was reckless of the police, just plain reckless... I understand they are worried and they have lost people by this guy but they loose all credibility as a police force doing this.... __________________ Molon Labe

February 11, 2013, 07:45 PM	#8
Nytelyte Senior Member Join Date: September 28, 2005 Location: Columbus, OH Posts: 144	It also shows that there is no intent to apprehend and dispense justice. They've got some killin to do.

February 11, 2013, 07:53 PM	#9
jmortimer Junior member Join Date: January 24, 2010 Location: South West Riverside County California Posts: 2,763	This is exhibit "A" when I hear people worried about over-penetration. If the hit rate is way under 50% for LEOs, much less John Q. Public, what does it matter?

February 11, 2013, 08:10 PM	#10
Venom1956 Senior Member Join Date: October 4, 2008 Location: WI Posts: 3,656	Seriously HOW IS THIS OK?! People just accept this? one or two news articles?! There's a mass shooting and you here about it for five months, ARs its for the children whatever blah blah blah... THE POLICE DEPT lights up two separate trucks with gun fire!? NBD just doing their job... Good Lord whats wrong with this country... get rid of their ARs cuz its for the children! __________________ E-Shock rounds are engineered to expend maximum energy into soft targets, turning the density mass into an expanding rotational cone of NyTrilium matrix particles, causing neurological collapse to the central nervous system.- Yeah I can do that. I guarantee you will know it if a bicyclist hits your house going 1000 mph. -Smaug

February 12, 2013, 02:51 AM	#12
iraiam Senior Member Join Date: September 6, 2012 Location: Lakewood, CO Posts: 1,057	I am guessing that PID is "Positive Identification", sorry, I'm a controls engineer, to me PID is Proportional-Integral-Derivative. I was shocked by this story. As a civilian CCW holder, i am absolutely liable for every round I discharge, and must be fully justified in doing so. If not, I would be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. I don't understand how government agents can honestly not be held to the same standards. To clarify that statement; This is such a blatant incident, for these officers to just go back to their jobs will require a profound level of dishonesty within the government/police force. __________________ NRA Lifetime Member Since 1999 "I ask, sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few public officials." George Mason

February 12, 2013, 07:34 AM	#13
Mobuck Junior member Join Date: February 2, 2010 Posts: 6,846	As I've said before "always be prepared to defend yourself against ANY threat". Too bad some of those folks didn't have some serious firepower to return fire on the bumfuzzles.

February 12, 2013, 02:33 PM	#16
I'vebeenduped Senior Member Join Date: January 2, 2013 Location: AZ Posts: 202	WWSAD? What would Sheriff Andy do? I think that, since California is soon to be a disarmed state, the police forces should each carry one round in their upper Left shirt pocket. This worked wonderfully in Mayberry, of which, I am absolutely certain LA will be like after the ban. __________________ The natural state of man, the way G‑d created us, is to be happy. Look at children and you will see

February 12, 2013, 02:35 PM	#17
I'vebeenduped Senior Member Join Date: January 2, 2013 Location: AZ Posts: 202	__________________ The natural state of man, the way G‑d created us, is to be happy. Look at children and you will see

February 12, 2013, 03:24 PM	#18
SgtLumpy Senior Member Join Date: January 2, 2013 Posts: 779	It may have changed, but for the first couple of days, every news story description of the guy did NOT mention he was black, African-American or any other reference to his skin color/ethnicity. Gave height and weight, hair and eye color but perhaps remaining politically correct did not mention he was black. Of course, the photos show him clearly as a black guy. But I'm betting there was a deliberate non-statement of ethnicity. I also find it sad/comical that they have to offer a $1M reward to get the citizens of LA to turn the guy in. Sgt Lumpy - n0eq

February 12, 2013, 04:19 PM	#20
Willie Sutton Junior member Join Date: January 26, 2012 Posts: 1,066	they loose <sic> all credibility as a police force doing this.... In order to lose something, you need to have had it to begin with. They have not lost a thing. They ought to be sued into bankruptcy, and the LAPD taken over by some adults for a clean-out and reorganization. The "officers" involved should be imprisoned for attempted murder. Willie . Last edited by Willie Sutton; February 12, 2013 at 04:24 PM.

February 12, 2013, 04:25 PM	#21
scrubcedar Senior Member Join Date: May 3, 2012 Location: Southwestern Colorado Posts: 507	Okay, I truly don't understand how this happened. We have current and former LE officers here, maybe you can answer these questions. How do you open fire on someone without being able to see them well enough to tell the difference between a Hispanic Female and a Black Male? How do you manage to hit Three vehicles and two buildings, how many feet(yards?) worth of spread at what distance is that? How do you open fire when your backstop is a house? How do you not understand, as a night shift LEO, that papers are routinely delivered at 5am by people in cars. I'm trying really hard to give them the benefit of the doubt, but I know darn well what would happen if I had done this in California, whether I was in fear for my life or not. How about it guys? Any idea's? __________________ Gaily bedight, A gallant knight In sunshine and in shadow, Had journeyed long, Singing a song, In search of El Dorado

February 12, 2013, 05:45 PM	#22
markj Senior Member Join Date: October 27, 2005 Location: Crescent Iowa Posts: 2,971	Geez, it was 5 am and a dark nite. Go out in the night like that and try to identify colors of vehicles. And make sure someone will harm you if you are wrong so you are in fear of your life as these guys are. No matter, says he is holed up in a cabin. and why this now? he was fired in 2008 or so. Said he told on another officer kicked somebody. Cops in LA are bad dudes, they will put a whupping on ya from what I had heard when I worked out there and rented a harley to use as transpo..

February 12, 2013, 05:57 PM	#23
scrubcedar Senior Member Join Date: May 3, 2012 Location: Southwestern Colorado Posts: 507	markj I didn't mention the color or type of vehicle. Stopping the pickup, guns drawn even, maybe, it's dark, I guess I can see it. What happened was different than that. __________________ Gaily bedight, A gallant knight In sunshine and in shadow, Had journeyed long, Singing a song, In search of El Dorado

February 12, 2013, 06:45 PM	#24
DucMon Junior Member Join Date: January 21, 2013 Posts: 6	Yes, I'd like to hear a response from some LEOs out there to scrubcedar's questions too -- and not just ramble on about it was dark making it ok. Because even if it was dark, how can you just go ahead and start shooting people? Can any guy with a CCW shoot people because it is dark and they are scared?