Full Metal Jacket Theory - Page 2

stephen426 · March 27, 2005, 04:45 PM

Smince...

Okay... I think you are trying to get me on this one so let me clarify myself first. I am not talking about crazy rifle rounds or 20mm rounds. Those will penetrate just about anything. Compared to handgun rounds arrows have more penetration in sand and water. This article has a pretty in depth analysis.

http://www.alaskafrontierarchery.com/Articles.html

Check out this one as well. This is a good one for the 9mm vs. .45 ACP arguements. It turns out the .45 ACP guys were right all along.

http://www.xmission.com/~fractil/math/kp.html

smince · March 27, 2005, 06:33 PM

Quote:

Arrows can penetrate many things that bullets can't.

I'm not "trying to get you" on anything. You made the above statement, and then didn't offer anything to back it up. I'm not sure what "crazy rifle rounds" are because the original post talked about 7.62x39 and .223. Pretty standard rounds.

Maybe I'll have my bow with me if I'm attacked by a bucket of sand or water. If it is flesh and blood, or a game animal, I'd still rather have a firearm. I've read that sometimes a blade or icepick-type weapon might penetrate body armor where it would otherwise deflect a bullet. An arrow might work here, depending on threat level. But with most body armor, cars, walls, etc, bullets will do a much better job than a shaft will.

I do have a good deal of bow hunting experience, and that has convinced me I need to be using a gun to hunt with.

Superhornet · March 28, 2005, 12:34 PM

Seen a demo once involving a long bow, .45 ACP and a breast plate from a Spanish armor suit. 45 ACP dented and bounced off. Arrow sliced through it and kept going. Seen a demo with a 30-06 150 grain soft point and a bag of #6 chilled shot (I think it was a 25# bag), bullet fragged and did not penetrate...Arrow went through the chilled shot bag and out the other side with no problem. Has to do with resistance and small diameter of arrow head and not power....Of course on soft target up close and personable----give me the .45 everytime...

Shawn Dodson · March 28, 2005, 08:58 PM

A 30.06 or .308 FMJ bullet, traveling point forward, that passes through an arm or leg, or perhaps a short wound track tangentially through the torso (peripheral hit), and does not hit bone will produce a wound no more severe than a .32 ACP FMJ.

Likewise, a 6.5mm Carcano bullet FMJ-RN bullet, traveling point forward, if it doesn't hit bone, can easily pass completely through a human torso and produce a wound no greater than a .32 ACP bullet. In soft tissues the 6.5 bullet easily travels 20 or more inches before it begins to yaw.

In 1937, Elmer Keith wrote an article, published in the July 1937 issue of American Rifleman, "Bronze Bullets in .220 Swift," in which he reports shooting several animals with 55-grain, non-deforming, non-fragmenting solid bronze bullets propelled at 4300 fps. He remarked that several of the animals solidly shot in the body showed no signs of being hit.

Therefore velocity alone is not an indicator of a bullet's wounding ability.

As described by Urey Patrick, in his paper "Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness," the four components of ballistic injury are:

1) Penetration. The tissue through which the projectile passes, and which it disrupts of destroys.

2) Permanent cavity. The volume of space once occupied by tissue that has been destroyed by the passage of the projectile. This is a function of penetration and the frontal area of the projectile. Quite simply, it is the hole left by the passage of the bullet.

3) Temporary cavity. The expansion of the permanent cavity by stretching due to the transfer of kinetic energy during the projectile's passage.

4) Fragmentation. Projectile pieces or secondary fragments of bone which are impelled outward from the permanent cavity and may severe muscle tissues, blood vessels, etc., apart from the permanent cavity. Fragmentation is not necessarily present in every projectile wound. It may, or may not, occur and can be considered a secondary effect.

In the situations described in my first three paragraphs, the only components present are penetration and permanent cavity. The bullets exited the target before they began to yaw. When a bullet yaws it increases its frontal surface area, which increases the amount of tissues it comes into direct contact with, and which, in turn, increases penetration resistance and the amount of energy transfer. Therefore a bullet that yaws produces a larger diameter temporary cavity, which, depending on the specific tissues involved, may substantially increase wound trauma.

Whereas a bullet that expands and shed fragments or disintegrates as it yaws has the potential to increase wound trauma. Combined with a large temporary cavity, fragmentation can produce severe tissue damage.

In the three situations I describe above, a 9mm or .45 ACP FMJ bullet will indeed damage or destroy more tissues than a 30.06, .308, 6.5 Carcano and .220 Swift. Will the wounds be more likely to kill? Lethality is a function of what tissues are damaged or destroyed and the amount of damage inflicted. A .50 BMG FMJ bullet that passes completely through the body without yawing or striking bone will produce a wound equivalent to a .45 ACP FMJ bullet. Which one is "more likely to kill" will depend on the path through the body and the tissues the bullet comes into direct contact with.

**JohnKSa** · March 28, 2005, 09:19 PM

Quote:

A 30.06 or .308 FMJ bullet, traveling point forward, that passes through an arm or leg, or perhaps a short wound track tangentially through the torso (peripheral hit), and does not hit bone will produce a wound no more severe than a .32 ACP FMJ.

I believe you have access to images showing gelatin shot with .308 and .32ACP. Why not post them just for grins.

SIGLOCKAUR · March 29, 2005, 12:00 AM

Their isjust too much b.s. out there. True ballistic experts are rare. The ones that have actually studied the effects of gunshots (medical people who have studied acual wounds and worked on those thus wounded make a few things clear.
1. No pistol round has the velocity or power to make a permanent wound track any more damaging by "hydrostatic shock". A pistol merely crushes or with the right bullet design cuts flesh about the size of the caliber of the bullet. The temporary wound channel does not tretch most tisse beyond it's elastic limit. In other words for a fraction of a second the wound is bigger than the size of the projectile. Non-elastic tissue like the liver my be an exception. Those that remove bullets from gunshot victims can tell no difference in the wound cavities of 9mm, .40, .45, etc. In fact until they remove the bullet they don't usually know what caliber was used.
2. High velocity rifle rounds do often exceed the elastic limits of tissue causing wound channels larger than the round used. Add to that many of these rounds fragment and create secondary missiles that cause multiple wound channels it maes almost any centerire rifle more effective than a pistol. Some rifle rounds
also tumble through the body and cause extra dmage. The Russian 5.45 (I believe this is the proper size) are designed to upset early and damge is increased by this tumbling.

March 27, 2005, 04:45 PM	#26
stephen426 Senior Member Join Date: March 11, 2005 Posts: 3,840	Smince... Okay... I think you are trying to get me on this one so let me clarify myself first. I am not talking about crazy rifle rounds or 20mm rounds. Those will penetrate just about anything. Compared to handgun rounds arrows have more penetration in sand and water. This article has a pretty in depth analysis. http://www.alaskafrontierarchery.com/Articles.html Check out this one as well. This is a good one for the 9mm vs. .45 ACP arguements. It turns out the .45 ACP guys were right all along. http://www.xmission.com/~fractil/math/kp.html __________________ The ATF should be a convenience store instead of a government agency! Last edited by stephen426; March 27, 2005 at 05:45 PM.

March 28, 2005, 12:34 PM	#28
Superhornet Senior Member Join Date: March 24, 2005 Location: florida Posts: 292	Arrows Seen a demo once involving a long bow, .45 ACP and a breast plate from a Spanish armor suit. 45 ACP dented and bounced off. Arrow sliced through it and kept going. Seen a demo with a 30-06 150 grain soft point and a bag of #6 chilled shot (I think it was a 25# bag), bullet fragged and did not penetrate...Arrow went through the chilled shot bag and out the other side with no problem. Has to do with resistance and small diameter of arrow head and not power....Of course on soft target up close and personable----give me the .45 everytime...

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March 28, 2005, 08:58 PM	#29
Shawn Dodson Junior member Join Date: December 16, 1998 Location: Titusville, FL, USA Posts: 1,030	A 30.06 or .308 FMJ bullet, traveling point forward, that passes through an arm or leg, or perhaps a short wound track tangentially through the torso (peripheral hit), and does not hit bone will produce a wound no more severe than a .32 ACP FMJ. Likewise, a 6.5mm Carcano bullet FMJ-RN bullet, traveling point forward, if it doesn't hit bone, can easily pass completely through a human torso and produce a wound no greater than a .32 ACP bullet. In soft tissues the 6.5 bullet easily travels 20 or more inches before it begins to yaw. In 1937, Elmer Keith wrote an article, published in the July 1937 issue of American Rifleman, "Bronze Bullets in .220 Swift," in which he reports shooting several animals with 55-grain, non-deforming, non-fragmenting solid bronze bullets propelled at 4300 fps. He remarked that several of the animals solidly shot in the body showed no signs of being hit. Therefore velocity alone is not an indicator of a bullet's wounding ability. As described by Urey Patrick, in his paper "Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness," the four components of ballistic injury are: 1) Penetration. The tissue through which the projectile passes, and which it disrupts of destroys. 2) Permanent cavity. The volume of space once occupied by tissue that has been destroyed by the passage of the projectile. This is a function of penetration and the frontal area of the projectile. Quite simply, it is the hole left by the passage of the bullet. 3) Temporary cavity. The expansion of the permanent cavity by stretching due to the transfer of kinetic energy during the projectile's passage. 4) Fragmentation. Projectile pieces or secondary fragments of bone which are impelled outward from the permanent cavity and may severe muscle tissues, blood vessels, etc., apart from the permanent cavity. Fragmentation is not necessarily present in every projectile wound. It may, or may not, occur and can be considered a secondary effect. In the situations described in my first three paragraphs, the only components present are penetration and permanent cavity. The bullets exited the target before they began to yaw. When a bullet yaws it increases its frontal surface area, which increases the amount of tissues it comes into direct contact with, and which, in turn, increases penetration resistance and the amount of energy transfer. Therefore a bullet that yaws produces a larger diameter temporary cavity, which, depending on the specific tissues involved, may substantially increase wound trauma. Whereas a bullet that expands and shed fragments or disintegrates as it yaws has the potential to increase wound trauma. Combined with a large temporary cavity, fragmentation can produce severe tissue damage. In the three situations I describe above, a 9mm or .45 ACP FMJ bullet will indeed damage or destroy more tissues than a 30.06, .308, 6.5 Carcano and .220 Swift. Will the wounds be more likely to kill? Lethality is a function of what tissues are damaged or destroyed and the amount of damage inflicted. A .50 BMG FMJ bullet that passes completely through the body without yawing or striking bone will produce a wound equivalent to a .45 ACP FMJ bullet. Which one is "more likely to kill" will depend on the path through the body and the tissues the bullet comes into direct contact with.

March 29, 2005, 12:00 AM	#31
SIGLOCKAUR Senior Member Join Date: August 10, 2004 Posts: 279	Their isjust too much b.s. out there. True ballistic experts are rare. The ones that have actually studied the effects of gunshots (medical people who have studied acual wounds and worked on those thus wounded make a few things clear. 1. No pistol round has the velocity or power to make a permanent wound track any more damaging by "hydrostatic shock". A pistol merely crushes or with the right bullet design cuts flesh about the size of the caliber of the bullet. The temporary wound channel does not tretch most tisse beyond it's elastic limit. In other words for a fraction of a second the wound is bigger than the size of the projectile. Non-elastic tissue like the liver my be an exception. Those that remove bullets from gunshot victims can tell no difference in the wound cavities of 9mm, .40, .45, etc. In fact until they remove the bullet they don't usually know what caliber was used. 2. High velocity rifle rounds do often exceed the elastic limits of tissue causing wound channels larger than the round used. Add to that many of these rounds fragment and create secondary missiles that cause multiple wound channels it maes almost any centerire rifle more effective than a pistol. Some rifle rounds also tumble through the body and cause extra dmage. The Russian 5.45 (I believe this is the proper size) are designed to upset early and damge is increased by this tumbling.