Pepper, Pistol, or Both?!

[too many choices!?]

Pepper sprays and oc spray seem to have some followers in the forum. I would like to know how many of you carry oc or pepper spray and do you train to use it? Is it just one more thing to go wrong when the chips are down? Can you give me a scenario where pepper spray would be better than a gun? Just trying to consider all the options. My idea so far is if pepper spray might do the job a pistol will do it better.....ex.. A guy is on lsd and wants to fight then oc spray is not going to get the job done or not at a safe enough distance for my liking.
Having to decide should I pull this or pull that is not what I want to have to think about in a pinch(if you have an exit then this is not a problem, but when you really need a gun sprays won't help). How about Multiple attackers?

[Blind Tree Frog]

in my conceal carry course it was recommended to carry it and use it first

[NSO_w/_SIG]

When someone is unarmed but wants to fight. Even if you end up having to fight them pepper spray in the eyes puts most at a great disadvantage. Also when dealing with a group of, say unruley protesters, when you are out numbered the pepper can really help. But by no means is it meant to take a place of a gun they are two completely different scenarios.

Here in MD when UMD wins big basketball games the idiots take to the streets and riot. They started a few years back giving the College Park Police paintball guns loaded with pepper spray balls. They aim for the chest and when they burst it splatters the dummy flipping your car up side down in the mouth and eyes.

[Nanuk]

Pepper spray(OC), is an intermediate tool, for when using hand-to-hand may not be enough and your firearm to much. One example could be if you were in an altercation with someone that you realize that you stand a fair chance of getting hurt by, and it had not escalated to a deadly force situation. That being said I feel that anyone that carries a gun for self defense should also be trained in unarmed self defense as well. This of course precludes a physical limitation on mobility. I do not know what is available for civilian training in the use of OC. Most of the better quality OC is restricted.

[Rojoe67]

as the previous member noted: In the right situation Pepper spray is great....but if BG is armed and dangerous.....that's your choice - I know what I would be doing. As far as a zipped up punk on a narcotic ride....pepper works well....it works on the physical issues not mental - I know a lot of LEO's that found the last to be very true. If your going for your weapon then I would assume the option for the spray has either come and gone or never was there.

Good luck.....

[JSandi]

I carry OC on duty as a Police Officer; I’ve used it many times, if I may let me offer you some advice.

I had to be sprayed with it in order to certify and be allowed to carry it on-duty. The main thing being sprayed with it taught me was just how fast it will incapacitate me if I get sprayed with it.

Also everytime that I have used it I end up getting it on me, nearly as bad as I do whom ever I intended to spray.

Pepper spray is not all that good in my opinion.

Everyone I had to spray I still had to fight; now they were really pissed and also covered in OC. It’s only truly effective at a rage of about 3 to 6 feet and it depends on temperature and other environmental conditions such as rain wind etc…

It’s not instantaneous, I’ve sprayed folks and had to wait up to one minute before it began to kick in, B/G’s who have been sprayed before know what to expect and a lot of them know what to do.

Your example of OC not having any effect on a guy wired on dope is good but I have sprayed people who were just drunk and it had little to no effect on them. People who are just determined are the same; about 50% of the time we still have to physically fight with them after spraying them. B/G’s also know to rush you once you point the spray; they do us all the time, close the distance and they ensure the spray gets both them and us.

Also from the civil liability side I know once we spray you we own you, if you get sprayed and run out into traffic them get smashed by a car, it’s on us.

I have no idea how that would relate to a civilian using it, also a lot of jurisdictions look at OC as a weapon, not less than lethal but just a weapon when used by a civilian.

Here is GA a while back a lady was charged with and convicted of felony aggravated assault for spraying a store clerk over a price dispute.

If you were looking for an alternate level of force I would get a good tazer over OC anyday.

[too many choices!?]

My only point with the sprays is that to be effective someone already has to be closer than i want them....it could blind you also rendering any firearms use a major liability and I don't want to be in a scuffle of any sort if I am carrying as my gun could be used against me! Reason for carrying concealed is to have a distance between myself and an attacker and still be able to effectively neutralize them....ex Someone running at you with a knife(or bare hands for that matter) if they tackle you the gun could be up for grabs....... Thats why if possible warn first( I have a concealed weapon) and then pull the gun is what I think would works best because if someone still attacks you while your gun is drawn you can reasonably say you feared for your life as they must be crazy

PS I was also told by my concealed carry instructor you should get a "non lethal option"( it must be mandatory 'cause my instructor seemed to gag on the words a little) To me the non lethal option is hopefully for the bad guy to run screaming like a little girl once my gun is produced If I feel threatend enough to produce a weapon( pepper spray) why not bring out the big guns first(pun intended) If you have a chance to spray don't you have a chance to run?

[NSO_w/_SIG]

I agree with you mostly but, I too have been sprayed and it wasn't 2 secs before I was yelling MF'ers and couldn't keep from blinking my eyes to see. I have seen some people however too that it really does seem to have little effect on.

Another point you made were the distances you find it effective. I have found that with the particualr one that I use 15 ft. can easliy be achieved as long as there is no strong wind. We use the stream type, not foam or fog. I currently use The Guardian MKIII, with 2 million SHUs.

[mvpel]

The way I look at it, in my decision not to carry OC in addition to my pistol, is that I'm not a cop and I don't have an affirmative duty to apprehend the other guy using the least amount of force necessary.

I limit my choices to getting the hell out of Dodge, or if I'm in immediate fear of serious bodily harm or death, drawing my pistol. It's simpler that way, and avoids Bat-Belt-itis.

[too many choices!?]

I bet that the same bad guy that would charge an officer with the oc spray drawn would think twice before charging that same officer with their duty weapon drawn. If he still charges then HE made it into a deadly force situation as he shoud/could have run away screaming like a scared little girl in the first place and the officer can't let the bad guy get into a scuffle with his weapon drawn(or holstered for that matter. Sprays can also blind the user is what I have seen(from my years of observation of the show COPS on fox tv) and are affected by the wind....I might get one fot the P.C. factor but wouldnt trust my life to it....How many civies here have ever used a spray in selfdefense? Did it work? Or simply make you both spicy? Someone accidentally sprayed some in a class when i was in highschool and we had to evecuate the entire hall! Blindly reaching for my firearm after hitting myself and the b/g with oc does not sound like fun !

[Para Bellum]

since I have heared from many police officers and other reliable sources that pepperspray does not incapacitate immediately, I don't carry it anymore.

Regarding non-lethal, a taser seems to be the only real answer. It seems to be a sure stopper, and that can't be said about any handgun in any caliber. There is a good taser-thread in a forum here. Check it out, it shows an impressive video.

However, I carry a Glock 19 and an extra magazine and a cellphone on my belt. That's enough for me. If I decided that lethal force was not appropriate, I'd run, or even deliberately take a punch and not fight back (as I once did) or fight hand-to-hand, if at all.

If I felt forced to use a tazer, I'd use my Glock anyway. But I'm a ccp civilan and don't have to be as cautious as a police-officer (in Austria/EU that is...).

[JSandi]

The point the other poster makes about having what is more or less the ability to retreat (regardless of whether or not your state requires it prior to deadly force) but instead of retreating you chose to employ OC, may cause you more trouble than it’s worth.

I’m not saying to not use it if you got it or not carry it at all, but just to ponder the possibility of how an over zealous liberal DA or city Solicitor would look at it if you choose to OC someone who was unarmed instead of just retreating the scene.

His rationale may be something like this, well you had a gun, how could you possibly felt as though you were in fear of great bodily harm or for your mortal life from an unarmed man if so then why did you not use it, if you believed you were justified or just flee altogether?

Instead you chose to stand your ground and heighten the situation by assaulting someone who may have not yet assaulted you.

In this situation it’s not the cops you have to worry about, most will likely just take the report if all that was employed was OC and the facts on the surface seem justified. But what you have to worry about is just what prosecutor’s desk the case file lands on.

Kind of the same factors you would face if all you did was brandish a weapon or point the firearm at another person both of which are misdemeanor crimes in GA.

Most cops here will sympathize with you maybe not on the surface but they will connect with you as they too have been in a position where they had to OC a person or clear leather where in the end, simply because the situation was moving so fast the level of force they and you may have used fell into that gray area of the law, where everyone likes to second guess whether you were actually justified or not.

IMHO, if all are alive, not one requires the attention of the emergency room surgeon you done well regardless of how you got from point A to point B.

That’s not to say what you or I was indeed 100% legal but that’s why we have courts.

I always said if it’s the difference between me going home at the end of my shift or not, I’ll take my chances with a jury.

I am going home at the end of my shift, I may not be wearing a uniform but I am going home. I may have a date with the state prosecutor and internal affairs in my very near future by I am going home.

[David Blinder]

OC is a non-lethal response to a non-lethal force threat. As mentioned, there are advantages and disadvantages. I personally like having the option available because it can be used much earlier in a confrontation so as to prevent it from becoming more serious. As an example, if a street person continued to harass you after a firm "Sorry, can't help you!", you might be justified in spraying where you wouldn't be justified (or smart) going hands on or using a higher level of force. OC isn't the holy grail but it is a valid option to have available. Obviously, if you are dealing with a deadly force threat, a more aggressive response is in order.

[Dwight55]

IMHO, . . . you either are in a situation that is indeed needful of lethal force, . . . or it is not.

Being 60 and to an extent, physically unable to confront an attacker who is bent on hurting me or someone near me: the bg made the choice. Once I clear leather and snap off the safety, . . . he has one more option in this card game, . . . and it is not going to be OC or pepper spray.

If he decides to head home and check the refrigerator light, . . . or anything else his little heart desires, . . . it's cool. Lift the old safety back up and re-holster, . . . get ready to tell the LEOs what happened when they get here, for if anybody saw it, . . . they are probably on their way.

This may sound heartless, cruel, mean spirited, whatever: I did not make any of the choices except that I am going home tonight. Bg's that want to be bg's make the choices that get them dead or bleeding badly. If someone wants to go one step closer to getting seriously hurt by trying to use OC or pepper on the bg, . . . so be it. I am going from good guy to unholstered and safety off, . . . then it is his move. I'm just too old and tired to play any of the songs in between.

May God bless,
Dwight

[Metellus]

My girlfriend can't shoot well and doesn't want to learn how. So to defend the house instead of picking up the benelli m1 tactical she goes for the bear spray. Looks like a fire extinguisher, shoots far, and with pressure.

You could spray the bg's feet and it'll splash into his face. It's hard to miss and it won't cause massive holes in your home. Quiet and can be turned into a club (although if the BG walks through a full blast of bear spray you should be running). Perfectly legal for civilians and more potent than any law enforcement OC. Stops bears too.

Unfortunately, too big to carry. Also, I would consider bear spray a weapon and a weapon for civillians should only be used in the same circumstances that would warrant a firearm. Therefore, why not just use the benelli, glock or whatever you carry.

[eka]

I have used pepper spray many times and been impressed with the results. Law enforcement use of OC differs somewhat than the use of OC by citizens. If a citizen is faced with an unarmed assailant, all the citizen is looking for is a slight opportunity to get away from the threatening person. A LEO is looking to take the person into custody to include cuffing him, searching him, and placing him inside a vehicle. Much different, he is probably going to still have some fight left in him, and yes you are going to get contaminated. True, OC does not work all of the time. But, it does work most of the time. Again, all you are looking for is a little advantage, it's not a magic bullet. If you are unfortunate enough to find yourself in a deadly force encounter and use your firearm, the fact that you possessed a less than lethal means to defend yourself looks good on your behalf. OC gives you options, options are good.

[Pamato]

up in the piedmont area of VA. Some years back he was called in as backup on a DUI biker stop. He arrived in time to see the large drunk biker whaling on the cop. He immediately did a 3-5 second spray of pepper-foam. The biker then started assaulting my brother. He said that after about thirty or so seconds of fighting (timed on the video) the biker started screaming and crying like a baby begging the cops to clean the pepper off of him. It still took thirty plus seconds.

Two end notes:
1. My brother was in significant "discomfort" for several hours, even after using the little cleaner-swabs.
2. He was also investigated by IA for use of excessive force (he had to make use of his ASP to get the biker off his partner - several hits to the upper arm on the BG), which was later dismissed.

Thirty seconds is a long time.

[Erik]

Another sprayed and sprayed LEO here.

Leave the spay at home unless you understand what it will and will not do under what conditions.

That's not even touching on the legalities involved.

[too many choices!?]

Like I said earlier if I feel enough of a threat to require pulling a weapon I am going to go with the most force I have available to save my life. If it happens to be a firearm(which it probably would be), a golf club, or whatever I would not go into a possible life and death situation without a weapon that could(if need be) take a life to protect mine. I say again ......If the situation is LIFE OR DEATH then I would feel under armed with any weapon not capable of taking a life(again only if needed)....Pepper spray a mad dog and see how far it gets you......A mad criminal gets put into the same category in my book both need to be put down(if an imediate threat) to protect self or others. Concealed carriers are not trouble seekers and carry for protection or trust me the media would have had a field day with this issue by now .

PS I still think that pepper spray can be just one more thing that can go wrong when you don't want it to.....ex In a panic, grab it backwards and blind yourself instead of the bad guy....for some reason I don't think I would forget which side of my firearm goes bang(even under stress)

[JSandi]

On that note, how many cops here have been sprayed by other cops while scuffling with some idiot?

I have!!!

[too many choices!?]

thanx for your enlightened input. It helped me to make my choice. Also no one has responded to my request about ever having used oc or pepper spray to defend themselves, so I guess that's a no.....I will wager dollars to pesos that if I ask the same question about firearms I would get a response ." Bat beltitis" Mvpel that's exactly what I want to avoid...One choice should have to be made in a life and death situation....live or die not what level of force to employ

[riverkeeper]

for deterence and possible use - actually used on a couple of attacking dogs.

Koppo stick in weak hand and concealed 38 ready to go.

Training and training with the handgun.

Reading and practise with OC.

Martial Arts and practise with the koppo stick.

Very posssibly the OC, which I didn't actually pull,and my response stopped my mugging/beating by 3 guys last Thur evening on the deserted streets of my good sized city in Western Washington. The last time actual mug attempt on me was in DC about 30 yrs ago.

[MatoTanika]

I like to have all the tools I can carry. I am also a very firm believer in getting good training. It is a real problem to need a tool and not have it. Carrying OC does not mean you HAVE to use, any more than carrying you gun means you have to shoot it. It just means you MAY use it if you choose.

For me being properly equipped means OC, my Para 45 and 2 Spydercos.
And actually sometimes, when the situation dictates, I add a good stick or staff.

Lee.................