Win 296 with Lead Bullets

rofranks · February 24, 2013, 12:09 PM

Can anybody please check this load for me. My hornady 8th edition reloading manual does not list the data for lead rounds.

158 gr LRN from South West Casting

Winchester Magnum Primer

13.5-14.5gr of win 296

357 remington brass

Crimped at cannelure

Cheap 870 · February 24, 2013, 12:26 PM

In my opinion their shouldn't be a problem with your data.

eldermike · February 24, 2013, 12:31 PM

I would like to know how it works for you. To me it looks like a good use for some mag small pistol primers so I am imtrested in hearing a report.

dmazur · February 24, 2013, 12:41 PM

I had problems with leading when I tried to push cast bullets without a gas check at high velocity in a .44 Magnum with Winchester 296.

If the bullets are hard cast, you may get away with that load without leading.

One of the problems with Winchester 296 (aka Hodgdon H110) is that it can't be used for reduced loads. So you can't simply reduce the charge to lower velocity to the point where the bullet might perform without causing leading.

You might need a different powder...

rofranks · February 24, 2013, 01:58 PM

The worry is about decreasing the loads. I'm well within published ranges. Other than checking the barrel after every cylinder what should I do to make sure I am not building up excess pressure with leading. I know to look for sticky extractions, backed out or flattened primers, bulged cases, etc.

shootniron · February 24, 2013, 02:04 PM

There are better choices for cast bullets. 296 should not be used for reduced loads and if you are pushing lead past about 1200fps, it will lead most barrels in my experience.

zxcvbob · February 24, 2013, 02:16 PM

http://www.castpics.net/LoadData/Fre...oadmnl15th.pdf

14.5 is OK --I thought it was marginal until I looked it up-- but 13.5 is too light; I wouldn't go below 13.8. Maybe start at 14 (that a 3% reduction) with a heavy crimp. 14.5 is probably going to be your best load.

Good luck

m&p45acp10+1 · February 24, 2013, 04:48 PM

Hope those bullets are gas checked.

If firing them non gas checked you should check the bore after a few shots. If the inside of the bore looks like it has been plated with lead. Then you should gas check the bullets.

Cheap 870 · February 24, 2013, 06:30 PM

Do you know the hardness of your south west bullets?

2003flht · February 24, 2013, 07:57 PM

i shoot the same. 14.5 grain 296, winchester mag primers, 158 grain lead semi-wadcutter 18 brinell, no gas checks. i have no problems with leading.

fishbones182 · February 24, 2013, 08:09 PM

slower burn rate of powders for the magnums is the rule of thumb. When it comes to leading of a barrel its all about bullet fit and hardness of the alloy. I use a hardness 12 for 38 spl and 18 for full bore 357 and 44 mag with no leading. I would suggest you first slug your barrel and know what size bullet youll need for your gun. Other wise get your self some chore boy pads cut them up and wrap them on your cleaning brush to get the lead out of your barrel.

rofranks · February 24, 2013, 10:56 PM

Is there a way to easily check the hardness of the bullet? I could not scratch it with a finger nail but I could with a flat head screwdriver. Upon seating a few rounds I believe my seating die is made for semi-wadcutters because it leaves a circular ring on the lead round. When I purchased at gunshow the local caster said that he had pushed to 1500fps through 1894 with no leading problems

dmazur · February 24, 2013, 11:24 PM

Well, I looked up the alloy data on the South West Casting site
(2% tin, 6% antimony, 92% lead) and then used this -

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...oy-calculators

lead calculator to look up the alloy. It was described as "Hardball Alloy" with a Brinell hardness of 16.

Here's something else to read about hardness -

http://www.rserv.com/Alloy.html

If you really want to shoot lead at high velocity, gas checks help. I believe the bullet mold has to be designed to accept gas checks -- they can't be added to a standard lead bullet.

myfriendis410 · February 25, 2013, 09:48 AM

A lot of shooters report leading using powders like 296 and 2400 due, not to leading per se, but to flame erosion of the heel of the bullet causing lead to deposit in the barrel. I have found that the lube can mitigate leading to a great extent but would require the use of your own luber/sizer to do so. I have no experience with tumble lubes. I make my own lube because I could not get the performance I needed out of commercial products to use in my Sharps.

AlaskaMike · February 25, 2013, 11:51 AM

Quote:

A lot of shooters report leading using powders like 296 and 2400 due, not to leading per se, but to flame erosion of the heel of the bullet causing lead to deposit in the barrel

The only times I've ever heard of leading when 296 or 2400 is used is usually with an undersized bullet, or some kind of barrel constriction (sometimes at the barrel/frame joint).

My personal experience with both those powders in many different calibers and revolvers using both commercially cast bullets, as well as those I cast myself, has been excellent.

Idaho Spud · February 25, 2013, 12:31 PM

Been using a load in that vicinity with 296/H110 for 30+ years, albeit mostly with a 158 gr. gas-checked SWC, which helped mitigate (the GC) the leading issue mentioned above. These were from my own molds. If I wanted a mid-range load I went with Unique or Bullseye. (still do, but then I'm a dinosaur)

zxcvbob · February 25, 2013, 01:13 PM

Quote:

I would like to know how it works for you. To me it looks like a good use for some mag small pistol primers so I am imtrested in hearing a report.

Just FYI, you can use magnum primers with any powder. You might have to adjust the load, also regular primers might work better with some powders (lower standard deviations.) But SPM's will work, and will usually work well.

Years ago when 9mm was the only small pistol cartridge I loaded, I used SR primers because I also used them for .30 M1 Carbine.

rofranks · February 26, 2013, 11:40 PM

Quote:

Well, I looked up the alloy data on the South West Casting site
(2% tin, 6% antimony, 92% lead) and then used this -

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...oy-calculators

lead calculator to look up the alloy. It was described as "Hardball Alloy" with a Brinell hardness of 16.

Here's something else to read about hardness -

http://www.rserv.com/Alloy.html

If you really want to shoot lead at high velocity, gas checks help. I believe the bullet mold has to be designed to accept gas checks -- they can't be added to a standard lead bullet.

At a bullet hardness of 16 would firing these with 14.0-14.5gr of 296 should I run into significant leading?

dmazur · February 27, 2013, 01:01 AM

I don't think there is an answer for that. Barrel roughness plays a factor as much as anything. Also, the diameter of your barrel relative to the bullet diameter.

I believe you need to try a few and check the barrel to find out what the results will be for your gun.

AlaskaMike · February 27, 2013, 01:56 PM

Dmazur is absolutely right--hardness plays a small role in whether you'll get leading. Far, far more important is bullet size relative to your barrel.

My own hand cast bullets are about 16 BHN and I push them to 1300+ fps with little to no leading and very good accuracy. The only time I use harder bullets is with my .30-06 loads that go above 2000 fps.

Mike

spacecoast · February 27, 2013, 04:38 PM

Personally I would stick with a JHP (meant to say jacketed) bullet when using 296 (H110). Hodgdon doesn't even show a cast bullet load. The min/max with a 158 JHP is 15.0/16.7 grains, and H110 is not very tolerant of reduced loads.

rofranks · February 27, 2013, 10:55 PM

Quote:

Personally I would stick with a JHP bullet when using 296 (H110). Hodgdon doesn't even show a cast bullet load. The min/max with a 158 JHP is 15.0/16.7 grains, and H110 is not very tolerant of reduced loads.

Hornady 8th lists minimum of 12.4gr-16gr with WSPM as load for 158gr bullets

spacecoast · February 28, 2013, 09:18 AM

Quote:

Hornady 8th lists minimum of 12.4gr-16gr with WSPM as load for 158gr bullets

No offense, but I personally give more weight to Hodgdon's min/max recommendation rather than a reloading manual that tries to cover myriad powder/bullet combos. It's their powder after all. There have been debates about whether H-110 and 296 are the same powder, with most agreeing they are the same.

This powder also needs a very firm roll crimp.

10 Spot Terminator · February 28, 2013, 09:50 AM

Looking at the content of the alloy posted ealier in this thread that is just a tad harder than clip on wheel weight lead so is at least 12 BHN but should be closer to 14. This is fine for magnum rounds but should be kept under max without being gas checked. The W296 needs to be kept at mid range or above for proper ignition. Never load this or H110 ( same powder ) below published load data and always use magnum primers. This powder is notorious for double detonation issues if this rule is not adhered to.

10 Spot

rofranks · February 28, 2013, 05:12 PM

how much would be good loading for cast there is not much data available i know its less than jacketed.

February 24, 2013, 12:09 PM	#1
rofranks Junior Member Join Date: November 12, 2011 Posts: 11	Win 296 with Lead Bullets Can anybody please check this load for me. My hornady 8th edition reloading manual does not list the data for lead rounds. 158 gr LRN from South West Casting Winchester Magnum Primer 13.5-14.5gr of win 296 357 remington brass Crimped at cannelure

February 24, 2013, 12:41 PM	#4
dmazur Senior Member Join Date: July 5, 2007 Location: Pacific NW Posts: 1,310	I had problems with leading when I tried to push cast bullets without a gas check at high velocity in a .44 Magnum with Winchester 296. If the bullets are hard cast, you may get away with that load without leading. One of the problems with Winchester 296 (aka Hodgdon H110) is that it can't be used for reduced loads. So you can't simply reduce the charge to lower velocity to the point where the bullet might perform without causing leading. You might need a different powder... __________________ .30-06 Springfield: 100 yrs + and still going strong

February 24, 2013, 02:16 PM	#7
zxcvbob Senior Member Join Date: December 20, 2007 Location: S.E. Minnesota Posts: 4,720	http://www.castpics.net/LoadData/Fre...oadmnl15th.pdf 14.5 is OK --I thought it was marginal until I looked it up-- but 13.5 is too light; I wouldn't go below 13.8. Maybe start at 14 (that a 3% reduction) with a heavy crimp. 14.5 is probably going to be your best load. Good luck __________________ "Everything they do is so dramatic and flamboyant. It just makes me want to set myself on fire!" —Lucille Bluth

February 24, 2013, 04:48 PM	#8
m&p45acp10+1 Senior Member Join Date: May 3, 2009 Location: Central Texas Posts: 3,930	Hope those bullets are gas checked. If firing them non gas checked you should check the bore after a few shots. If the inside of the bore looks like it has been plated with lead. Then you should gas check the bullets. __________________ No matter how many times you do it and nothing happens it only takes something going wrong one time to kill you.

February 24, 2013, 07:57 PM	#10
2003flht Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2009 Location: Connecticut Posts: 199	i shoot the same. 14.5 grain 296, winchester mag primers, 158 grain lead semi-wadcutter 18 brinell, no gas checks. i have no problems with leading. __________________ "Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming...Wow! What a ride!" Give a Liberal a fish, he'll ask for seconds. Teach a Liberal to fish, he'll sign up for unemployment...

February 24, 2013, 12:26 PM	#2
Cheap 870 Junior member Join Date: November 12, 2011 Location: Ohio Posts: 159	In my opinion their shouldn't be a problem with your data.

February 24, 2013, 12:31 PM	#3
eldermike Senior Member Join Date: January 24, 2013 Location: NC Posts: 545	I would like to know how it works for you. To me it looks like a good use for some mag small pistol primers so I am imtrested in hearing a report.

February 24, 2013, 01:58 PM	#5
rofranks Junior Member Join Date: November 12, 2011 Posts: 11	The worry is about decreasing the loads. I'm well within published ranges. Other than checking the barrel after every cylinder what should I do to make sure I am not building up excess pressure with leading. I know to look for sticky extractions, backed out or flattened primers, bulged cases, etc.

February 24, 2013, 02:04 PM	#6
shootniron Senior Member Join Date: April 16, 2011 Location: Georgia Posts: 1,599	There are better choices for cast bullets. 296 should not be used for reduced loads and if you are pushing lead past about 1200fps, it will lead most barrels in my experience.

February 24, 2013, 06:30 PM	#9
Cheap 870 Junior member Join Date: November 12, 2011 Location: Ohio Posts: 159	Do you know the hardness of your south west bullets?

February 24, 2013, 08:09 PM	#11
fishbones182 Member Join Date: August 1, 2012 Location: Florida Posts: 98	slower burn rate of powders for the magnums is the rule of thumb. When it comes to leading of a barrel its all about bullet fit and hardness of the alloy. I use a hardness 12 for 38 spl and 18 for full bore 357 and 44 mag with no leading. I would suggest you first slug your barrel and know what size bullet youll need for your gun. Other wise get your self some chore boy pads cut them up and wrap them on your cleaning brush to get the lead out of your barrel.

February 24, 2013, 10:56 PM	#12
rofranks Junior Member Join Date: November 12, 2011 Posts: 11	Is there a way to easily check the hardness of the bullet? I could not scratch it with a finger nail but I could with a flat head screwdriver. Upon seating a few rounds I believe my seating die is made for semi-wadcutters because it leaves a circular ring on the lead round. When I purchased at gunshow the local caster said that he had pushed to 1500fps through 1894 with no leading problems

February 24, 2013, 11:24 PM	#13
dmazur Senior Member Join Date: July 5, 2007 Location: Pacific NW Posts: 1,310	Well, I looked up the alloy data on the South West Casting site (2% tin, 6% antimony, 92% lead) and then used this - http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...oy-calculators lead calculator to look up the alloy. It was described as "Hardball Alloy" with a Brinell hardness of 16. Here's something else to read about hardness - http://www.rserv.com/Alloy.html If you really want to shoot lead at high velocity, gas checks help. I believe the bullet mold has to be designed to accept gas checks -- they can't be added to a standard lead bullet. __________________ .30-06 Springfield: 100 yrs + and still going strong

February 25, 2013, 09:48 AM	#14
myfriendis410 Senior Member Join Date: March 30, 2011 Location: Lompoc California Posts: 274	A lot of shooters report leading using powders like 296 and 2400 due, not to leading per se, but to flame erosion of the heel of the bullet causing lead to deposit in the barrel. I have found that the lube can mitigate leading to a great extent but would require the use of your own luber/sizer to do so. I have no experience with tumble lubes. I make my own lube because I could not get the performance I needed out of commercial products to use in my Sharps.

February 25, 2013, 12:31 PM	#16
Idaho Spud Senior Member Join Date: April 7, 2010 Posts: 330	Been using a load in that vicinity with 296/H110 for 30+ years, albeit mostly with a 158 gr. gas-checked SWC, which helped mitigate (the GC) the leading issue mentioned above. These were from my own molds. If I wanted a mid-range load I went with Unique or Bullseye. (still do, but then I'm a dinosaur) __________________ "I should have picked alcohol, drugs, or beating my wife..." Pete Rose

February 27, 2013, 01:01 AM	#19
dmazur Senior Member Join Date: July 5, 2007 Location: Pacific NW Posts: 1,310	I don't think there is an answer for that. Barrel roughness plays a factor as much as anything. Also, the diameter of your barrel relative to the bullet diameter. I believe you need to try a few and check the barrel to find out what the results will be for your gun. __________________ .30-06 Springfield: 100 yrs + and still going strong

February 27, 2013, 01:56 PM	#20
AlaskaMike Senior Member Join Date: September 26, 2005 Posts: 941	Dmazur is absolutely right--hardness plays a small role in whether you'll get leading. Far, far more important is bullet size relative to your barrel. My own hand cast bullets are about 16 BHN and I push them to 1300+ fps with little to no leading and very good accuracy. The only time I use harder bullets is with my .30-06 loads that go above 2000 fps. Mike

February 27, 2013, 04:38 PM	#21
spacecoast Senior Member Join Date: October 14, 2009 Location: Sunshine and Keystone States Posts: 4,461	Personally I would stick with a JHP (meant to say jacketed) bullet when using 296 (H110). Hodgdon doesn't even show a cast bullet load. The min/max with a 158 JHP is 15.0/16.7 grains, and H110 is not very tolerant of reduced loads. Last edited by spacecoast; February 28, 2013 at 09:07 AM. Reason: added jacketed note

February 28, 2013, 09:50 AM	#24
10 Spot Terminator Senior Member Join Date: January 3, 2008 Location: Central Oregon Posts: 348	Looking at the content of the alloy posted ealier in this thread that is just a tad harder than clip on wheel weight lead so is at least 12 BHN but should be closer to 14. This is fine for magnum rounds but should be kept under max without being gas checked. The W296 needs to be kept at mid range or above for proper ignition. Never load this or H110 ( same powder ) below published load data and always use magnum primers. This powder is notorious for double detonation issues if this rule is not adhered to. 10 Spot

February 28, 2013, 05:12 PM	#25
rofranks Junior Member Join Date: November 12, 2011 Posts: 11	how much would be good loading for cast there is not much data available i know its less than jacketed.