22 Mag vs 38 special

[Recoiljunkie44]

The girl was sitting up in a tree while the hog passed under here she shot it!
Sorry about not being clear!

[Lost Sheep]

Forgive me if this has been suggested in this thread; I have not read all four pages.

Take a 22 mag, 38 spl, 9mm and 45 ACP to a range that will let you set up reactive targets (if you don't have guns available in all those chamberings, go on a busy day-it is likely you may find volunteers who do).

Take at least one phone book per chamber. All the books should be identical.

Tie the pages up tight with string of rubber bands.

Stand the books up at a distance at which you can be sure of center hits on each one.

Shoot each one, in turn, with the 22, 38, 9 and 45 and whatever other calibers are available. For extra fun hit one with a rifle or observe the differences between results with solid full metal jacket, hard cast lead, soft point lead or hollow point. Bring extra phone books.

Measure how far each phone book moves after being hit and how much paper is lost. For extra points, photograph the results and post them here.

The differences (while not very refined, ballistically speaking) will suggest a caliber choice.

Good luck and good shooting. Make sure you have plenty of phone books (at certain times of the year, expired issues are plentiful as mosquitos around here).

These threads from another forum are illuminating, also.

http://concealedcarryforum.com/forum...?TOPIC_ID=9342
http://concealedcarryforum.com/forum...TOPIC_ID=11911

Lost Sheep.

[Lashlarue]

This 22wmr fits nicely in my pocket and equals at ten yards the energy of an Ar-15 at 200 yards. I keep it loaded with 50 gr. Hp's. For home protection I have a 357 and several 9mm's, two 223 rifles and a 9mm carbine.

[MLeake]

Checking the ballistics tables, the 5.56mm NATO from an AR-15 :
M855 62gr @ 200yds has velocity of 2570fps, and 909fpe; and
M193 55gr @ 200yds has velocity of 2467fps, and 743fpe

The .22WMR, from a 6.5" revolver barrel:
40gr Muzzle Velocity 1400fps, energy 174fpe

Not sure how a cartridge that provides 174fpe at the muzzle increases to 743fpe at 10 yards...

IE the previous post is stretching things pretty mightily.

[srt 10 jimbo]

I have a ruger 22wmr/22lr , I would have no problem carrying the 22wmr. If the dang barrel wasent so long.

[christcorp]

There area lot of people who will throw out numbers to you about different calibers. There's also many who will spit out supposed Minimums in caliber and such. In time, much of this information was accurate. Especially when a lot of the ammo was simply lead and FMJ. But things have changed. But there is one thing that hasn't changed. And it probably will never change. A person who is shot with a bullet in a particular SPOT and dies relatively instantly, will have died from a shot in that location today, a year ago, or 100 years ago.

Technology however has changed quite a bit. For instance; when the "Experts" say that a 380/9mm/38spl are the minimum calibers, that is dated information. With today's ammunition, a 32auto can almost mirror a 380acp. ESPECIALLY a 380acp of the time the recommendation of the minimum caliber of 380/9mm/38spl was made.

So, the first thing I tell friend/family who are interested in guns/ammo when asked about which caliber; is that if you shoot the person in the correct spot, then ANY caliber is good enough. However, I am a realist. I understand that shooting a person in the "Correct" spot isn't always that simple. That is why I try and recommend the largest physical diameter bullet available. Which happens to be the 45acp for most practical self defense guns. Yes, there are larger, but not really for defensive purposes. The truth is; all handgun calibers are lacking in the defense capabilities. But the larger the hole, the more blood loss. And personally, the 32/380/9mm/38/40/10mm/45acp only has a difference in bullet diameter of about 0.13 inches from the 32acp to the 45acp. So there's not a lot of difference. So, go with the physically largest that you like.

The only exception to performance is with the 3 magnums. The 357, 41, and 44 magnum. They have enough pure velocity to cause even additional damage. But outside of the magnums, go with the physically largest you like. And if the largest like a 45acp isn't what you're comfortable with, then go smaller. But whatever you get, you need to practice. Getting cornered in an ally, I'll put up someone with a 25acp or 32acp who practices with it twice a month, over someone who has a snub 2" Taurus Tracker 44 magnum and hasn't shot it in 2 years. They'll be lucky to fire one round before dropping it at their feet. But the person who practices; even with the 25acp or 32acp will probably hit you dead center in the chest. And you WILL deter the threat. I prefer large holes for my bullets to make. 45acp with a JHP. That's the largest for defense. But sometimes, that's not practical. And I have no problem with a 9mm mak or a 32acp. And if the 25acp or 22 magnum was what I was proficient with, then that is what I'd feel comfortable with too.

[Griffyn]

I used to have a .38 derringer. I loaded specifically for it. I used hollow-based wadcutters, seated backwards, that is, with the hollow base out. They would start tumbling about 3 feet from the muzzle. Accurate? you ask. You've got to be kidding. But within the intended range (10 feet), I couldn't miss a B-27 target.

I don't mind snub revolvers. My own is a Charter Arms Bulldog Pug stainless. Heavy barrel (it has a notch in the bottom for the cylinder crane), and .44 Special caliber. Handgun recoil doesn't bother me though. If you want a little more help with expansion, try seating a bb in a hollow point when you reload. That little steel ball being driven back into the slug upon impact makes a bit of difference. But reduce the powder a little to make up for the increased projectile weight.

After all the comments on the .22WRM for defense above, I didn't think it necessary to add any more comments on that part of the subject.

[Skans]

For self-defense, given the choice I'd take .38 special over .22 magnum any day. If .22 magnum were superior, cops would have used them as duty revolvers instead of .38. There are some pretty good self defense rounds in .38 special or even +P.

[Mikeyboy]

I have not posted on TFL in over a year but after reading some of this thread I felt the need to respond.

Is a standard .38 special out of a snubbie ballistically superior to a .22wmr coming out of a snubbie barrel?

Yes it, most solid .38 rounds will penetrate just a deep than .22wmr. The .38 round wins by default because it is bigger and heavier so it will make a wider hole.

Now is a .22wmr snubbie completely useless as a self defense weapon?

HECK NO!!!

First up is the ballistics gel test from brassfetcher. A .22magnum coming out of a Taurus snubbie with a 2" barrel, penetrates well past 12" of gel, and sometime tumbles along the way creating a nasty wound cavity.

http://www.brassfetcher.com/22WMR.html

Now here is the rub when comparing the .22wmr to the .38. The difference in recoil is VERY significant. Shooting a airweight .38 and shooting an airweight .22wmr is night and day. I hate when people recommend a S&W 642 or 442 to a young woman who is new to shooting. I own a 442. I have shot 9mm and .45 all my life and shooting that 442 for a long period of time just sucks. A 351PD weighs 11oz, lighter then most pocket guns out there, and recoil is light. Sure you can get a heavy .38 to reduce recoil, but try putting a 28oz Ruger sp101 in your pocket.

When the OP started this thread, .38 ammo was cheap, and easy to find. In the late fall of 2008, how cheap and easy was it to find was .38 ammo??? I can still walk into a walmart today and not find .38 ammo, but even at the height of the ammo panic, I could find .22wmr ammo. Still $12 to $14 for a box of 50.

A few years back I was trying to figure out what to get my wife for SD. I started her on a Taurus 94 .22lr snubbie, but she hated shoot even an all steel 22oz .38 S&W model 60. I really considered the .22wmr and the .32H&R magnum revolver as an option (.327 was not even out yet). I went with S&W in .32H&R and today I'm having more problems finding .32 ammo than I do .38. Sure .32 S&W Long recoils just as lightly as the .22wmr, but try paying almost $40 for a box of 50 remington LRN, if you can find it. Try paying over a $1 a round for .32 H&R Hollowpoints. Sure I could reload, but where can I get primer??

I have a daughter that is approaching her teen years, and when I look ahead for her to have something for Self Defense, I cannot see her with a .38 or a .32 snubbie. What the heck is going to happen in the next few years with ammo prices and availablity?? I don't know about you guys but, me shooting more than a box of centerfire ammo at the range is a rare event anymore. I shoot a lot of .22lr these days. When my daughter moves out of the house, am I going to hand her a .38 revolver and say "good luck finding ammo" ?? Do you think she is even going to practice if the ammo prices are double what they are today??

Personally I find the S&W 351PD to be a great SD weapon. It has enough power to get the job done. Its uber-light for concealed carry, and it has low recoil. It is expensive, probably around the same price as a Sig 238 or a Kahr P380, but unlike those nice .380 pocket pistols, you can find ammo for the 351PD and you can afford to shoot it regularly.

Sorry just needed to rant.

[BAGTIC]

If one needs to fire eight or nine shots it is because the first five or six were inadequate for the situation. The assailant might not give you the time to fire all those extra shots.

For defense one wants a gun with enough penetration to reach vital organs on the first shot and to leave a good blood channel. 9mm or 38 special is the beginning.

[Bill DeShivs]

Mikeyboy
Try .32 ACP in your revolver. It's hotter than .32 S&W long, and cheaper.
Make sure it works reliably in your gun.

[w_houle]

Cant you shoot .32 ACP through a .32 S&W Long?

[Teuthis]

a 38 Special loaded with wad cutters or some of the light recoil rounds available now is an excellent choice. Reliability is certainly better with center fire rounds.

[drrpg01]

The bigger bullet will always be the better choice as long as it maintains the velocity to penetrate more than superficially. Why? Bigger bullet usually means more tissue damage. Smaller bullet must hit something important by happenstance to be very useful. If you can get big and heavy bullet plus high velocity, you're really talking about ripping somebody a new one - eg, 357 mag 4", 41 mag, 44 mag. 22 mag bullet is too small. 38 spl bullet can get ballistically pretty decent if it's coming out of a sizeable barrel or if it's the modern +P stuff. 38 spl (non +p) out of a snub? Well, you'd better be close range I would think.

[BillCA]

Lots of hoo-rah here and some misinformation.

Re: Bill Jordan & the .22 WMR. Remember that Jordan was a very accomplished marksman and shooter. For someone like that, it probably wouldn't matter if he used a .22 Mag or a .357 - he was fast enough and good enough to make good hits.

Now... some rebuttals to some of the comments...

Originally Posted by Bagtic

If one needs to fire eight or nine shots it is because the first five or six were inadequate for the situation. The assailant might not give you the time to fire all those extra shots.

Not really. Shot placement is king. Under stress we may not make accurate hits that immediately disable an opponent. Shoot an adrenaline-pumped person in the buttocks at an angle with a .44 Mag and he may run off more than 100 yards.¹ If he can run away, he can run towards you. There are documented cases of multiple hits with .45 and .357s failing to stop someone too.² Just because you need a 3rd or 6th shot does not mean the cartridge is "inadequate". It's more likely your aim isn't very good.

Originally Posted by MWark

If she can handle only the 22mag she might want to consider mace instead.
I'll readily admit that the mace will not be as effective as the 22mag however if the carrier is too timid to shoot a snub or a small 380 then she is probably better off with a cell phone or mace.

She'll just end up getting shot with her own 22 mag.

First, that's as sexist a comment as I've heard here in a while. Unless you mean that anyone using a .22mag would end up being shot with their own gun.

Mace/pepper-spray and other non-lethal defense tools should be available, especially for women. Men do things to women that don't rise to the level of threat/danger that justifies lethal force but require a very firm response. And that's where these tools come into play.

Snubby revolvers are not easy to shoot and many .380's are straight blowback designs that increase the felt recoil. So saying that someone is "too timid" is better off using mace is stupid. This is like me telling you that if you lack the cajones to fire a 26oz .44 Mag with 240gr loads, well, you should just stick with pepper-spray. Some folks are naturally recoil shy and have difficulty with the sudden shock/noise/flash of firearms. The solution for them is to use a larger, heavier gun with milder loads.

Originally Posted by skeeter1

I own them both. .22Mag High Standard derringer and S&W "Chief's Special". I'll take the .38Spl+P any day. The .22Mag was really meant for a rifle, and makes a tremendous muzzle-blast out of a short-barrel handgun. The .38 was meant for a handgun, and is far better, IMHO. Unless you're using a rifle, the .22Mag really isn't good for s***.

I'd have to disagree. Around '75 a local Sheriffs deputy resorted to his High-Standard .22 WMR derringer backup piece during a car stop. His shot hit the perp in the neck at about 7 o'clock in a downward angle. The perp died, still in the car with a .357 in his lap.

Many people underestimate the .22 WMR because of its small size. For home defense, a 4-inch .22WMR revolver that you can shoot well beats a .45 caliber handgun that results in poor hits or complete misses. The WMR produces a considerable amount of damage in relation to its size.

As with any firearm, placing a shot where it will be effective is the key. A cartridge requires enough energy to get through bone (ribs, sternum, vertebrae, crainum) to reach the intended target. Most of us opt for larger calibers with the knowledge that if our aim is off slightly, the larger diameter might make up for it. And we use expanding point bullets for similar reasons.

¹ A local resident awoke to an intruder in his home who was unlocking the front door to let in an accomplice. He fired a single .44 Mag round which penetrated through both buttocks of the intruder. Police captured him a few blocks away.
² A moderately intoxicated (.11 BAC) man in S.Cal absorbed three COM hits from a .45 Auto and walked away two blocks before expiring. The man was shot after wielding a knife and demanding another man's car.

[MWark]

Quote: BillCA
Senior Member



First, that's as sexist a comment as I've heard here in a while. Unless you mean that anyone using a .22mag would end up being shot with their own gun.



Well that may be the dumbest comment I've heard here in a while. I didn't make the subject female the original poster did.

What a pinhead!

[Ghost22]

If so, that's what I would start her out on. She likely has experience, so bring her back to the .22? And I agree with all the "try and see" posts. I think letting her decide is by far the best choice. If the lady in question can control a a .327/.38/9mm, then she will probably want to start there. (That class of cartridge has been used for decades for self defence and with expanding rounds works pretty well. The revolvers also have access to some very low recoil wadcutter ammuntion.) If not, then a .22wmr wouldn't be completely useless, and she could trade it in for a heavier gun once she's comfortable with shooting. I've gotta ask, why not a .22lr if it's a trainer/last ditch gun? Ammunition is much cheaper, and the gun cost will be lower. Just a though. Finally, I'd stay away from airweight anything above .22 caliber; the hardest kicking gun i've ever fired was a low cost .32acp and I've played with a .44 magnum and own a .357.

BTW - I'll laugh if she comes back from the test session wanting a .45

[BillCA]

The OP said she handled his 9mm, but didn't say that she fired it. Apparently she's knows how to handle firearms but her experience is unknown.

If I had to make a suggestion, I'd for home protection I'd suggest a 4-inch .38 Special revolver. There are lots of used ones around and some in excellent shape for much less than a new gun.

S&W Model 67, .38 Special

Start her with 130gr FMJ ammo for practice and fire a few +P rounds to gauge her reaction to the more potent ammo. If she can handle a .38 Special she will be able to protect herself after some practice.

MWark - While the OP did describe the end-user as a woman, suggesting that if she's unable to handle a .22 Mag's serious muzzle blast that the gun would be taken from her does sound sexist. There are many male shooters who have trouble with muzzle blast or recoil who will shoot more sedate loads, like .45 Colt or .45 ACP just fine. As for the parting remark, read item #3 of the forum rules.