Reloading for the 7.62 x 25 and 9x 18 Mak

tobnpr · January 27, 2012, 08:45 PM

The indoor range nearby where we shoot our handguns doesn't allow ferrous bullets because of their bullet traps...

We normally shoot surplus from these two pistols (a Yugo M57 and a CZ-82) when at the rifle range, but because our long range shooting takes up the whole day now, we need to add another day or two a month for the indoor range just to shoot our pistols, and I want to start reloading for these.

I can get 9x18 brass ammo "reasonable" at $15/box, but I can save a few bucks by loading, I suppose. I haven't bothered reloading for our 9x19's, because I can't make "range-plinking" ammo for any less than I can buy it...so although I've a lot of experience reloading all our rifle calibers (Hornady LNL), never reloaded for any of our handguns, since we're not after precision results with them.

I've got a ton of 9x19 brass, and a case trimmer, so trimming to 9x18 is no issue. I know there's a small difference in bullet size, but this is not supposed to be an issue (?).

I've read that making 7.62 x 25 brass from .223 ammo can be problematic, and the brass itself is short-lived because of excessive expansion fireforming.

Should I just buy the Starline brass for this?

Any bullet/load data for range plinking ammo is appreciated, as well as a good self-defense load for the 9x18 as my 82 is my EDC.

CWKahrFan · January 27, 2012, 11:19 PM

Quote:

I've read that making 7.62 x 25 brass from .223 ammo can be problematic, and the brass itself is short-lived because of excessive expansion fireforming.

I've found reloading 7.62x25 to be extremely frustrating even when using new 7.62x25 brass because (as you've written) of "excessive expansion fireforming" and that reloads simply will NOT cycle through either my M57 or my CZ52. So I've given up on it. And that's after trying it repeatedly with both Prvi Partisan and Sellior & Bellot brass.

That's my testimony. Sad but true... ('Cause I really wanted it to work. However, I'm NOT a reloading expert nor have I researched much about working with this particular round. There are too many other fun range rounds that are easy-peasey to reload so I'm not that interested... Not worth it to me.)

zxcvbob · January 27, 2012, 11:38 PM

I reload 9x18 using 93 grain .365 cast bullets. So far all I've loaded is mild stuff using 3.3 grains of Red Dot or 3.6 grains of International (both loads are right at 1000 fps, and Green Dot or Titegroup would substitute perfectly for the International.) I need to work up something a little beefier, using Unique or Universal or WSF.

I have a TT-33 in 7.62x25 that I don't shoot often. I've been saving my old milsurp brass when I do shoot it (what doesn't split at the shoulders), and someday I'll try converting the primer pockets from Berdan to Boxer so I can load them.

jag2 · January 28, 2012, 12:01 AM

I bought the 30 mauser brass from Starline because I wanted lighter loads for my Broomhandle. The surplus 7.62 is just too hot and I didn't feel comfortable shooting it in that old of a gun. It works fine in my Yugo 57, may need to trim it depending on your gun. To save a little money I've used 110 grn bullets that I load for my M-1 carbine instead of the usual 85 grn. Works okay for me.

Scimmia · January 28, 2012, 12:30 AM

CWKahrFan, I'm curious, what problems were you having? I've been reloading for my M57 and not having a problem with "excessive expansion fireforming", but I don't know how may loads I'll get out of the brass yet. It's actually been a good thing for me that the chamber is a bit oversized as I'm running oversized bullets and S&B brass.

I'm not going to post any load data since I'm still playing with loads and using non-standard bullets for this round.

Edit: I am using a Lee FCD for this round, maybe that's why I don't have the problems you do, CWKahrFan?

CWKahrFan · January 28, 2012, 01:24 AM

Quote:

what problems were you having?

Ummm... First time reloads were OK but after that, even though I could manage nice tight bullet fits with succeeding runs, there was an expansion somewhere (in the shoulders or necks? - I dunno, maybe even the base?) which caused the rounds to not chamber completely without giving the slide a strong push with my thumb...

And occasionally one of these expanded spent casings would be so tight as to slow down the action so much upon ignition that the bolt wouldn't come back far enough to extract... so then that spent casing would ride forward again and become stuck REALLY bad... in some instances so tight it could only be removed by disassembling and tapping it out with a dowel.

I know none of these reload difficulties were being caused by worn actions or weak springs because my old standby milsurp ammo has always (both before AND AFTER these reload problems) cycled through both guns 100% successfully.

Scimmia · January 28, 2012, 01:34 AM

Huh. I haven't loaded any cases more than twice yet, so I'll have to watch for that. Thanks for the info.

bbqncigars · January 28, 2012, 01:41 AM

What jag2 said. I shoot the same loads in my restored Mauser C-96 as my CZ-52. All made using Starline brass & 85gr FMJ. I did find that my Dillon 550B's recommended powder expander was too small to prevent some of the necks from buckling when bullet seating. That was solved with some lathe work. I do set the sizing die so that the sized cases easily chamber in both guns (the CZ is a little tighter).

CWKahrFan · January 28, 2012, 01:42 AM

Scimmia: Yeah, I hope it goes better for you... BTW, I was using a Lee single stage press & Lee dies.

tobnpr · January 28, 2012, 09:36 AM

CW,

I'm trying to understand how there could be an issue with chambering.
I assume you ran them through a FL sizing die...
I know that FL sizing does not get a case back to unfired dimensions (which a lot of people mistakenly believe), but should get them very close.

I had an issue once with one of our centerfire calibers (can't recall which one) where I was checking headspace with a gauge- fireformed brass vs. newly resized. I was new at the time, followed directions- screw the sizing die down 'till it contacts the shellplate. Did that, but it still wouldn't bump the shoulder back .002 like I wanted.

Posted the problem, and someone told me to go 1/2 to 1 full turn past contact- so that it would really have to cam over "hard". I did that, and problem solved- took all the "slack" out of the contact between the two.

I can't help but think that your problem may have been related to that, or a bad die, or a pistol with a very tight chamber.

I just can't come up with any other reason that, fully sized, brass won't chamber...

Thanks for the suggestions, guys.

m&p45acp10+1 · January 28, 2012, 09:57 AM

I shoot less than a box of 9 mm Mak a month, so I do not load for that caliber. Oh and my P-64 can make brass evaporate. On a clean range fire a magazine, and you will do good to find 2 pieces of the brass.

I have too many other guns that I shoot a lot more, and do reload for.

CWKahrFan · January 28, 2012, 03:03 PM

Quote:

someone told me to go 1/2 to 1 full turn past contact- so that it would really have to cam over "hard". I did that, and problem solved-

Makes sense... I'll give them another try someday... I haven't really put much energy into them so it's good you guys are coaxing me... Thanks.

glicerin · January 28, 2012, 06:34 PM

I use starline brass in a cz52, no problems, light loads, cast bullets. The short neck doesn't flare uniformly with lee expander, lyman m style does much better.

Scimmia · February 5, 2012, 06:32 PM

Quote:

I've found reloading 7.62x25 to be extremely frustrating even when using new 7.62x25 brass because (as you've written) of "excessive expansion fireforming" and that reloads simply will NOT cycle through either my M57 or my CZ52. So I've given up on it. And that's after trying it repeatedly with both Prvi Partisan and Sellior & Bellot brass.

I was loading up some test rounds today and while testing them in the barrel was getting some that were sticking. Now, this isn't abnormal as I'm using really oversized bullets and have to be careful of the necks with a good crimp but not too much, but it didn't seem to be the necks sticking this time. I found that it's actually sticking just below the shoulder. The Hornady manual shows that the brass should be .373" just below the neck. New S&B rounds were measuring .370" to .373". The rounds that were sticking were measuring .376" to .377"! Apparently the Lee resizing die doesn't resize this portion enough. The RCBS dies are really expensive, too. Maybe I'll have to ream the chamber a bit?

CWKahrFan · February 5, 2012, 06:58 PM

Hmmm... interesting...

Magnum Wheel Man · March 6, 2013, 09:27 AM

this summer I plan on continueing the work my FIL started on his CZ-52...

I have a couple 100-223 cases trimmed, some formed, some neck thinned ( didn't notice anyone mentioning that ??? ), some with the base turned a couple .001's off ( didn't see any mention of that ) & some loaded, several fire formed, & a couple that have been fired a couple times...

I didn't see any issues with any part of the process, nothing split, & don't think he was annealing, but will keep an eye on things as I move ahead...

January 27, 2012, 08:45 PM	#1
tobnpr Senior Member Join Date: August 1, 2010 Location: Tampa Bay Posts: 4,556	Reloading for the 7.62 x 25 and 9x 18 Mak The indoor range nearby where we shoot our handguns doesn't allow ferrous bullets because of their bullet traps... We normally shoot surplus from these two pistols (a Yugo M57 and a CZ-82) when at the rifle range, but because our long range shooting takes up the whole day now, we need to add another day or two a month for the indoor range just to shoot our pistols, and I want to start reloading for these. I can get 9x18 brass ammo "reasonable" at $15/box, but I can save a few bucks by loading, I suppose. I haven't bothered reloading for our 9x19's, because I can't make "range-plinking" ammo for any less than I can buy it...so although I've a lot of experience reloading all our rifle calibers (Hornady LNL), never reloaded for any of our handguns, since we're not after precision results with them. I've got a ton of 9x19 brass, and a case trimmer, so trimming to 9x18 is no issue. I know there's a small difference in bullet size, but this is not supposed to be an issue (?). I've read that making 7.62 x 25 brass from .223 ammo can be problematic, and the brass itself is short-lived because of excessive expansion fireforming. Should I just buy the Starline brass for this? Any bullet/load data for range plinking ammo is appreciated, as well as a good self-defense load for the 9x18 as my 82 is my EDC.

January 27, 2012, 11:38 PM	#3
zxcvbob Senior Member Join Date: December 20, 2007 Location: S.E. Minnesota Posts: 4,720	I reload 9x18 using 93 grain .365 cast bullets. So far all I've loaded is mild stuff using 3.3 grains of Red Dot or 3.6 grains of International (both loads are right at 1000 fps, and Green Dot or Titegroup would substitute perfectly for the International.) I need to work up something a little beefier, using Unique or Universal or WSF. I have a TT-33 in 7.62x25 that I don't shoot often. I've been saving my old milsurp brass when I do shoot it (what doesn't split at the shoulders), and someday I'll try converting the primer pockets from Berdan to Boxer so I can load them. __________________ "Everything they do is so dramatic and flamboyant. It just makes me want to set myself on fire!" —Lucille Bluth

January 28, 2012, 12:30 AM	#5
Scimmia Senior Member Join Date: May 19, 2011 Location: Eastern IA Posts: 428	CWKahrFan, I'm curious, what problems were you having? I've been reloading for my M57 and not having a problem with "excessive expansion fireforming", but I don't know how may loads I'll get out of the brass yet. It's actually been a good thing for me that the chamber is a bit oversized as I'm running oversized bullets and S&B brass. I'm not going to post any load data since I'm still playing with loads and using non-standard bullets for this round. Edit: I am using a Lee FCD for this round, maybe that's why I don't have the problems you do, CWKahrFan? Last edited by Scimmia; January 28, 2012 at 12:40 AM.

January 28, 2012, 01:41 AM	#8
bbqncigars Senior Member Join Date: February 1, 2009 Location: Iowa Posts: 525	What jag2 said. I shoot the same loads in my restored Mauser C-96 as my CZ-52. All made using Starline brass & 85gr FMJ. I did find that my Dillon 550B's recommended powder expander was too small to prevent some of the necks from buckling when bullet seating. That was solved with some lathe work. I do set the sizing die so that the sized cases easily chamber in both guns (the CZ is a little tighter). __________________ "Of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most." A. Brilliant

January 28, 2012, 01:42 AM	#9
CWKahrFan Senior Member Join Date: November 3, 2010 Posts: 2,016	Scimmia: Yeah, I hope it goes better for you... BTW, I was using a Lee single stage press & Lee dies. __________________ What did Mrs. Bullet say to Mr. Bullet? ... "We're having a BeeBee!"... IF THE SHOE FITS, WEAR IT!... IF THE GUN FITS, SHOOT IT! "Experience is something you don't get until just after you need it."

January 28, 2012, 12:01 AM	#4
jag2 Senior Member Join Date: June 30, 2009 Location: dallas Posts: 773	I bought the 30 mauser brass from Starline because I wanted lighter loads for my Broomhandle. The surplus 7.62 is just too hot and I didn't feel comfortable shooting it in that old of a gun. It works fine in my Yugo 57, may need to trim it depending on your gun. To save a little money I've used 110 grn bullets that I load for my M-1 carbine instead of the usual 85 grn. Works okay for me.

January 28, 2012, 01:34 AM	#7
Scimmia Senior Member Join Date: May 19, 2011 Location: Eastern IA Posts: 428	Huh. I haven't loaded any cases more than twice yet, so I'll have to watch for that. Thanks for the info.

January 28, 2012, 09:36 AM	#10
tobnpr Senior Member Join Date: August 1, 2010 Location: Tampa Bay Posts: 4,556	CW, I'm trying to understand how there could be an issue with chambering. I assume you ran them through a FL sizing die... I know that FL sizing does not get a case back to unfired dimensions (which a lot of people mistakenly believe), but should get them very close. I had an issue once with one of our centerfire calibers (can't recall which one) where I was checking headspace with a gauge- fireformed brass vs. newly resized. I was new at the time, followed directions- screw the sizing die down 'till it contacts the shellplate. Did that, but it still wouldn't bump the shoulder back .002 like I wanted. Posted the problem, and someone told me to go 1/2 to 1 full turn past contact- so that it would really have to cam over "hard". I did that, and problem solved- took all the "slack" out of the contact between the two. I can't help but think that your problem may have been related to that, or a bad die, or a pistol with a very tight chamber. I just can't come up with any other reason that, fully sized, brass won't chamber... Thanks for the suggestions, guys.

January 28, 2012, 09:57 AM	#11
m&p45acp10+1 Senior Member Join Date: May 3, 2009 Location: Central Texas Posts: 3,930	I shoot less than a box of 9 mm Mak a month, so I do not load for that caliber. Oh and my P-64 can make brass evaporate. On a clean range fire a magazine, and you will do good to find 2 pieces of the brass. I have too many other guns that I shoot a lot more, and do reload for. __________________ No matter how many times you do it and nothing happens it only takes something going wrong one time to kill you.

January 28, 2012, 06:34 PM	#13
glicerin Member Join Date: October 9, 2006 Location: Northern Ontario Posts: 36	I use starline brass in a cz52, no problems, light loads, cast bullets. The short neck doesn't flare uniformly with lee expander, lyman m style does much better.

February 5, 2012, 06:58 PM	#15
CWKahrFan Senior Member Join Date: November 3, 2010 Posts: 2,016	Hmmm... interesting... __________________ What did Mrs. Bullet say to Mr. Bullet? ... "We're having a BeeBee!"... IF THE SHOE FITS, WEAR IT!... IF THE GUN FITS, SHOOT IT! "Experience is something you don't get until just after you need it."

March 6, 2013, 09:27 AM	#16
Magnum Wheel Man Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2006 Location: Southern Minnesota Posts: 9,333	this summer I plan on continueing the work my FIL started on his CZ-52... I have a couple 100-223 cases trimmed, some formed, some neck thinned ( didn't notice anyone mentioning that ??? ), some with the base turned a couple .001's off ( didn't see any mention of that ) & some loaded, several fire formed, & a couple that have been fired a couple times... I didn't see any issues with any part of the process, nothing split, & don't think he was annealing, but will keep an eye on things as I move ahead... __________________ In life you either make dust or eat dust...