28 versus .410

lizziedog1 · September 7, 2009, 06:47 AM

On another thread I mention my 28 gauge experience. I was dove hunting yesterday and a friend let me take a shot with his. As soon as he handed me the gun, I looked up and saw an incoming bird. I nailed it and it landed a few feet away from us. I really enjoyed shooting it. I know one shot doesn't make for a complete evaluation, so I am posting this thread here.

I have looked at .410 factory loads and compared them to 28 gauge ones. It doesn't seem like the 28 offers much, if any, payload advantage over its smaller cousin. However, the .410 is long skinnny shell, while the 28's hull looks more like a "real" shell.

Here is my question, does the 28 gauge's shape make it that much better then the .410? Does the 28 throw better patterns because of it?

The reason I am asking is that I want to get a small gauge shotgun. I had been wanting a .410 repeater for sometime. But after shooting the 28 yesterday, I am looking at that gauge.

Anyone here have experience with both of these shells?

Bella · September 7, 2009, 07:22 AM

I know this guy that is really big into 28's. He has let me shoot some of his shotguns, I have also thought about getting a 28 gauge shotgun. The only drawback is availibilty and expense of the ammo. He reloads shotshells, I do not.

I talked to him several times about comparing the 28 to the 410. He mentioned somehting about the way the shot sits in the shell. He said that the 410's shot is too long and thus makes a longer shot string pattern.

I am not sure what all this meant, but he swears that the 28 throws better patterns.

johnbt · September 7, 2009, 08:45 AM

The balanced shell load is referred to as a square load - about the same height as width. If the load is too tall the pellets at the rear end get shoved into mass at the front and develop flat spots and curveball off instead of staying in the pattern. There's more to it than this, but the .410 is as famous for being as bad as the 28 is good. You typically get a longer shot string with a .410 and a very short one with the 28 (except maybe with the overloaded 1-ounce loads.)

Here's an article on balanced loads. I'm supposed to be painting the back porch (if it doesn't rain.)

http://www.sidebysideshotgun.com/art...s_article.html

B.L.E. · September 7, 2009, 10:15 AM

The shorter the shot column, the fewer pellets wipe against the barrel and get deformed. That's why a 7/8 ounce load in a 12 gauge tends to shoot a better pattern than a 7/8 ounce load in a 20 gauge.

Yea I know, plastic shot cups are supposed to eliminate that but the pellets on the bottom of the column still get crushed by the force needed to accelerate the pellets on top of the column.

My muzzleloading 8 gauge shoots excellent patterns when loaded with "12 gauge" loads, 1+1/8 ounce shot.

zippy13 · September 7, 2009, 11:58 AM

Since it's one of the standard events in registered skeet, NSSA shooters are among the few who intimate with the 28-gauge. Yes, there is a big performance difference between the 28-ga and the .410-bore. It's beyond what one would expect just based upon the load difference. As Johnbt mentioned, it has to due with the square load principle.

The 28-ga is a joy to shoot, especially if you're going to shoot a lot per day -- it kicks like a .410 and hits like a 20. Yes, 28-ga ammo is more expensive -- it's all about supply and demand. If more of you shot the 28, the price would come down. On the other hand, they are easier to reload that the finicky .410s and cost less per round to reload than 20s.

The reason for having different gauge events in skeet competition is to provide a handicap: In trap you move farther back, in skeet you use less shot. The last NSSA 28-ga event I entered, I shot a 100-straight -- I wish I could say the same about the nasty little .410s.

lizziedog1 · September 7, 2009, 12:43 PM

Quote:

The 28-ga is a joy to shoot, especially if you're going to shoot a lot per day -- it kicks like a .410 and hits like a 20. Yes, 28-ga ammo is more expensive -- it's all about supply and demand. If more of you shot the 28, the price would come down. On the other hand, they are easier to reload that the finicky .410s and cost less per round to reload than 20s.

Makes you wonder why the .410 is more popular then the 28 gauge.

oneounceload · September 7, 2009, 01:33 PM

The 28 is, IMO, the ideal upland gauge for small to medium sized birds. It is as much fun as you can have with your clothes on.......The 28 typically has 50% larger payload than a 410. I have both a semi and an O/U. There isn't a clay target or flying bird out there that the 28 can't perform well on.......

mwar410 · September 7, 2009, 02:47 PM

honestly I wouldn't even compare 28 to a .410. The 28 is more like the 20ga. than anything else. I think it even patterns better than the 20. Now the .410 is a whole nother beast.

Waterengineer · September 7, 2009, 03:00 PM

Word (as my daughter would say) In my lingo, What one Oz. said.

zippy13 · September 7, 2009, 03:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lizziegog1

Quote:

The 28-ga is a joy to shoot, especially if you're going to shoot a lot per day -- it kicks like a .410 and hits like a 20. Yes, 28-ga ammo is more expensive -- it's all about supply and demand. If more of you shot the 28, the price would come down. On the other hand, they are easier to reload that the finicky .410s and cost less per round to reload than 20s.

Makes you wonder why the .410 is more popular then the 28 gauge.

Good question, lizziedog1. I think it has to do with a general misconception that has prevailed for several generations. Traditionally, when selecting a first rifle or handgun, many folks have looked to the .22 rimfire. I know, my firsts were both .22s. Many consider a .22 rim fire a safer choice for a youth gun. That same thinking extends to selecting a first shotgun -- they think it's easier and safer learning to shoot with the smallest shotgun ( .410). Consequently, over the years many .410s have accumulated.

Like many families, we have a single shot .410 that once belonged to a distant relative. Long before I got into competitive shooting, I bought .410 shells for shooting rats at the local dump with the ancestral junker. I imagine a lot of .410 ammo sales are for similar situations.

Watch bull's-eye pistol shooters, they shoot their .22s better than their center-fires. So, it makes sense to learn your handgun fundamentals with an "easier to shoot " rim-fire. Now, check out skeet scores, the .410s are well below the others. Does it really make sense to try to learn with the shotgun that's the hardest to shoot?

These days, I typically recommend a new shooter start with a 12-ga gun. If recoil is a problem, there are a wide variety of reduced loads available. After you become proficient with your 12-ga, then you can start thinking about smaller guns. As oneounceload mentioned, the 28-ga is the ideal gun for small upland birds and clay targets. However, he's assuming you already know your way around with a 12-ga.

BigJimP · September 7, 2009, 05:27 PM

Like Zippy, OneOunce and others said - the effective pattern on a 28ga is much better than a .410 - so the 28ga is a lot more versatile in the field. Like many others - I shoot the 28ga a lot better than a .410 ( even though I have identical guns in 20, 28ga and .410 - of the 3, I shoot the 28ga by far the best, with the 20ga a close 2nd - and the .410 a distant 3rd...

I like the 28ga for quail - especially over good dogs ....

olddrum1 · September 8, 2009, 12:05 AM

To answer your question, no. The shape of the 28 is not the cause of better patterns than the 410. In a 28 gauge shell your running 3/4 ounce of shot compared to 1/2 ounce in the 410. Your putting a third more shot into that circle with the 28 as compared to the 410. Running your pressure up on your shells and choice of certain shot types causes shot deformation. In this case it has no effect on the patterns in that the shell speed is roughly the same but if you check most reloading manuals, the pressure on a 1/2 ounce 410 load is lesser than that of a 28 gauge in 3/4 ounce. This means more of a deformation in the 28 actually. As Z-13 referred to, the 410 can be humbling at times. The 28 is a little more forgiving.

johnbt · September 8, 2009, 08:47 AM

www.mackspw.com/Item--i-X41S

Here you go, a selection of 3/4-ounce .410 game loads by Winchester. See if you can get them to pattern worth a hoot and get back to us on it.

I'll stick to my 28 and leave the Winchester Model 37 .410 in the safe.

John

roy reali · September 8, 2009, 07:00 PM

Quote:

the pressure on a 1/2 ounce 410 load is lesser than that of a 28 gauge in 3/4 ounce.

Where on God's green earth did you come up with that?

I just looked up some shotshell reloading on the Hodgdon website. I suggest you do the same and compare the pressure of .410 loads with the pressure of 28 gauge loads.

Here is one example I found.

.410 1/2 ounce load, pressures 9,600 to 12,300 psi.

28 gauge 3/4 ounce load, pressures 9,600 to 12,500 psi.

Big pressure difference, wouldn't you say?

Quote:

This means more of a deformation in the 28 actually.

I guess that extra 200 psi will turn those round lead projectiles into malformed disks!

olddrum1 · September 8, 2009, 09:45 PM

I am glad you guys corrected me. I got out my Hodgdons book and took a closer look. The Winchester 209 primer load I have been using truly does run 9500 psi for a 1/2 ounce of shot in my 410. On the other hand the 28 gauge load for 3/4 ounce using a Winchester primer and universal hits 10,800 psi. I stand corrected. But really, I was using my 15th edition Winchester manual which pretty much states the same thing. Now if you had read my post carefully and under stood what I had written, I said the the 28 gauge load patterns better because it is throwing a third more shot and had nothing to do with shot deformation. I said that if anything, most of your loads on the 28 gauge run a little more pressure.

olddrum1 · September 8, 2009, 10:28 PM

I have to apologize again. There for a minute I thought I was incorrect. I pulled all the 28 gauge, 3/4 lead loads for Winchester aa hulls and the same for 410 in a 1/2 ounce loads and run the numbers on them from the Hodgdons data center. 200 was pretty close. Actually the 410 loads averaged 10,258 and the 28 ran 11,830 psi. Thats a difference of the average 28 running roughly 1612 psi greater than the 410.

roy reali · September 8, 2009, 10:35 PM

Look up 3/4 ounce .410 loads.

olddrum1 · September 8, 2009, 11:06 PM

I made the statement that 1/2 ounce 410 has lower pressue on average than 3/4 ounce 28 which it does.

olddrum1 · September 8, 2009, 11:10 PM

Quote:
the pressure on a 1/2 ounce 410 load is lesser than that of a 28 gauge in 3/4 ounce.

Where on God's green earth did you come up with that?

I just looked up some shotshell reloading on the Hodgdon website. I suggest you do the same and compare the pressure of .410 loads with the pressure of 28 gauge loads.

Here is one example I found.

.410 1/2 ounce load, pressures 9,600 to 12,300 psi.

28 gauge 3/4 ounce load, pressures 9,600 to 12,500 psi.

Big pressure difference, wouldn't you say?

Quote:
This means more of a deformation in the 28 actually.

I guess that extra 200 psi will turn those round lead projectiles into malformed disks!

Please help me out here. Where does it say anything about 3/4 ounce 410 loadsin your post?

johnbt · September 9, 2009, 03:15 PM

"Now if you had read my post carefully and under stood what I had written, I said the the 28 gauge load patterns better because it is throwing a third more shot and had nothing to do with shot deformation"

I read it carefully, I said I didn't agree with it. A tall stack of pellets causes more deformation to the ones on the bottom layers than a shallower stack does.

I've seen 28 ga. loads pattern better than larger gauge loads containing more shot. It's the same principle that has standard loads in any gauge patterning better than hulls stuffed as full of pellets as they can be.

The English figured it out a century or two ago. That's how come there are such things as standard loads.

John

cottontop · September 9, 2009, 06:56 PM

I'm not sure about the specifics, but I will say that for flying targets such as clays or birds the 28 is awesome. The 410 is the ultimate furry critter gitter.That's just my personal experience, nothing scientific involved.

Kmar40 · September 9, 2009, 09:37 PM

Since we're on the topic generally, may I ask why I should consider either the 28g (not really on the menu) or 410 (I have one) instead of a 20g with the light loads? They don't really kick either.

BigJimP · September 9, 2009, 09:39 PM

No reason not to use a 20ga with 3/4 oz loads ( just like a 28ga ) ....

but don't tell my wife ......I convinced her I needed that matched set of O/U's one in 28ga and one in .410 ( to match the same gun I already had in 20ga and in a 12ga ) ......they look real good lined up in the safe .... ( and they were only $ 2,500 each ....they were a steal)...

roy reali · September 9, 2009, 10:25 PM

Quote:

Since we're on the topic generally, may I ask why I should consider either the 28g (not really on the menu) or 410 (I have one) instead of a 20g with the light loads? They don't really kick either.

Why would anyone with more then three or four guns consider any others? If someone had a rifle in .30-06, a rifle in .22 rimfire, and a 12 gauge shotgun, then for all intent and purposes they have guns to cover 99.9% of hunting situations in the lower 48. Throw in another rifle chambered in some .375 or .416 chambering and unless you visit Jurassic Park all hunting needs have been met.

So why consider a 28 gauge, or a .22-250, or a 17 rimfire, or a 20 gauge, or any other gun? Because we can!

Dave McC · September 10, 2009, 09:35 AM

Being a reloader, before I'd get MOST 28 gauges, a good 20 with 3/4 oz handloads would be first choice.

The 28 is awesome, but many run a bit light for ol' behemoth me who is used to 8 lb shotguns.

A friend was absolutely deadly with his H&H 28, but he freely admitted he shot it well only when it was all he shot.

A 6 lb 20 with top quality 3/4 oz loads tweaked to the bore, mission and choke would be the best of both worlds,IMO.

The restocked 870 YE here runs 6 lbs, 2oz. If I had more time and opportunity to upland hunt, it would be the tool of choice.

September 7, 2009, 06:47 AM	#1
lizziedog1 Senior Member Join Date: November 23, 2005 Posts: 289	28 versus .410 On another thread I mention my 28 gauge experience. I was dove hunting yesterday and a friend let me take a shot with his. As soon as he handed me the gun, I looked up and saw an incoming bird. I nailed it and it landed a few feet away from us. I really enjoyed shooting it. I know one shot doesn't make for a complete evaluation, so I am posting this thread here. I have looked at .410 factory loads and compared them to 28 gauge ones. It doesn't seem like the 28 offers much, if any, payload advantage over its smaller cousin. However, the .410 is long skinnny shell, while the 28's hull looks more like a "real" shell. Here is my question, does the 28 gauge's shape make it that much better then the .410? Does the 28 throw better patterns because of it? The reason I am asking is that I want to get a small gauge shotgun. I had been wanting a .410 repeater for sometime. But after shooting the 28 yesterday, I am looking at that gauge. Anyone here have experience with both of these shells?

September 8, 2009, 10:28 PM	#16
olddrum1 Senior Member Join Date: March 23, 2008 Location: Mid Missouri Posts: 807	I have to apologize again. There for a minute I thought I was incorrect. I pulled all the 28 gauge, 3/4 lead loads for Winchester aa hulls and the same for 410 in a 1/2 ounce loads and run the numbers on them from the Hodgdons data center. 200 was pretty close. Actually the 410 loads averaged 10,258 and the 28 ran 11,830 psi. Thats a difference of the average 28 running roughly 1612 psi greater than the 410. Last edited by olddrum1; September 8, 2009 at 10:46 PM. Reason: Grammer

September 8, 2009, 10:35 PM	#17
roy reali Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2005 Posts: 3,248	re:olddrum1 Look up 3/4 ounce .410 loads.

September 7, 2009, 07:22 AM	#2
Bella Senior Member Join Date: July 6, 2009 Posts: 341	I know this guy that is really big into 28's. He has let me shoot some of his shotguns, I have also thought about getting a 28 gauge shotgun. The only drawback is availibilty and expense of the ammo. He reloads shotshells, I do not. I talked to him several times about comparing the 28 to the 410. He mentioned somehting about the way the shot sits in the shell. He said that the 410's shot is too long and thus makes a longer shot string pattern. I am not sure what all this meant, but he swears that the 28 throws better patterns.

September 7, 2009, 08:45 AM	#3
johnbt Senior Member Join Date: December 6, 1999 Location: Richmond, Virginia USA Posts: 6,004	The balanced shell load is referred to as a square load - about the same height as width. If the load is too tall the pellets at the rear end get shoved into mass at the front and develop flat spots and curveball off instead of staying in the pattern. There's more to it than this, but the .410 is as famous for being as bad as the 28 is good. You typically get a longer shot string with a .410 and a very short one with the 28 (except maybe with the overloaded 1-ounce loads.) Here's an article on balanced loads. I'm supposed to be painting the back porch (if it doesn't rain.) http://www.sidebysideshotgun.com/art...s_article.html

September 7, 2009, 10:15 AM	#4
B.L.E. Senior Member Join Date: December 20, 2008 Location: Somewhere on the Southern shore of Lake Travis, TX Posts: 2,603	The shorter the shot column, the fewer pellets wipe against the barrel and get deformed. That's why a 7/8 ounce load in a 12 gauge tends to shoot a better pattern than a 7/8 ounce load in a 20 gauge. Yea I know, plastic shot cups are supposed to eliminate that but the pellets on the bottom of the column still get crushed by the force needed to accelerate the pellets on top of the column. My muzzleloading 8 gauge shoots excellent patterns when loaded with "12 gauge" loads, 1+1/8 ounce shot.

September 7, 2009, 11:58 AM	#5
zippy13 Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2008 Location: SoCal Posts: 6,442	Since it's one of the standard events in registered skeet, NSSA shooters are among the few who intimate with the 28-gauge. Yes, there is a big performance difference between the 28-ga and the .410-bore. It's beyond what one would expect just based upon the load difference. As Johnbt mentioned, it has to due with the square load principle. The 28-ga is a joy to shoot, especially if you're going to shoot a lot per day -- it kicks like a .410 and hits like a 20. Yes, 28-ga ammo is more expensive -- it's all about supply and demand. If more of you shot the 28, the price would come down. On the other hand, they are easier to reload that the finicky .410s and cost less per round to reload than 20s. The reason for having different gauge events in skeet competition is to provide a handicap: In trap you move farther back, in skeet you use less shot. The last NSSA 28-ga event I entered, I shot a 100-straight -- I wish I could say the same about the nasty little .410s.

September 7, 2009, 01:33 PM	#7
oneounceload Junior member Join Date: April 18, 2008 Location: N. Central Florida Posts: 8,518	The 28 is, IMO, the ideal upland gauge for small to medium sized birds. It is as much fun as you can have with your clothes on.......The 28 typically has 50% larger payload than a 410. I have both a semi and an O/U. There isn't a clay target or flying bird out there that the 28 can't perform well on.......

September 7, 2009, 02:47 PM	#8
mwar410 Senior Member Join Date: December 25, 2008 Location: maine Posts: 234	honestly I wouldn't even compare 28 to a .410. The 28 is more like the 20ga. than anything else. I think it even patterns better than the 20. Now the .410 is a whole nother beast.

September 7, 2009, 03:00 PM	#9
Waterengineer Senior Member Join Date: February 7, 2006 Location: Aurora, CO and Palm Beach, FL Posts: 863	Word (as my daughter would say) In my lingo, What one Oz. said.

September 7, 2009, 05:27 PM	#11
BigJimP Senior Member Join Date: February 23, 2005 Posts: 13,195	Like Zippy, OneOunce and others said - the effective pattern on a 28ga is much better than a .410 - so the 28ga is a lot more versatile in the field. Like many others - I shoot the 28ga a lot better than a .410 ( even though I have identical guns in 20, 28ga and .410 - of the 3, I shoot the 28ga by far the best, with the 20ga a close 2nd - and the .410 a distant 3rd... I like the 28ga for quail - especially over good dogs ....

September 8, 2009, 12:05 AM	#12
olddrum1 Senior Member Join Date: March 23, 2008 Location: Mid Missouri Posts: 807	To answer your question, no. The shape of the 28 is not the cause of better patterns than the 410. In a 28 gauge shell your running 3/4 ounce of shot compared to 1/2 ounce in the 410. Your putting a third more shot into that circle with the 28 as compared to the 410. Running your pressure up on your shells and choice of certain shot types causes shot deformation. In this case it has no effect on the patterns in that the shell speed is roughly the same but if you check most reloading manuals, the pressure on a 1/2 ounce 410 load is lesser than that of a 28 gauge in 3/4 ounce. This means more of a deformation in the 28 actually. As Z-13 referred to, the 410 can be humbling at times. The 28 is a little more forgiving.

September 8, 2009, 08:47 AM	#13
johnbt Senior Member Join Date: December 6, 1999 Location: Richmond, Virginia USA Posts: 6,004	www.mackspw.com/Item--i-X41S Here you go, a selection of 3/4-ounce .410 game loads by Winchester. See if you can get them to pattern worth a hoot and get back to us on it. I'll stick to my 28 and leave the Winchester Model 37 .410 in the safe. John

September 8, 2009, 09:45 PM	#15
olddrum1 Senior Member Join Date: March 23, 2008 Location: Mid Missouri Posts: 807	I am glad you guys corrected me. I got out my Hodgdons book and took a closer look. The Winchester 209 primer load I have been using truly does run 9500 psi for a 1/2 ounce of shot in my 410. On the other hand the 28 gauge load for 3/4 ounce using a Winchester primer and universal hits 10,800 psi. I stand corrected. But really, I was using my 15th edition Winchester manual which pretty much states the same thing. Now if you had read my post carefully and under stood what I had written, I said the the 28 gauge load patterns better because it is throwing a third more shot and had nothing to do with shot deformation. I said that if anything, most of your loads on the 28 gauge run a little more pressure.

September 8, 2009, 11:06 PM	#18
olddrum1 Senior Member Join Date: March 23, 2008 Location: Mid Missouri Posts: 807	I made the statement that 1/2 ounce 410 has lower pressue on average than 3/4 ounce 28 which it does.

September 8, 2009, 11:10 PM	#19
olddrum1 Senior Member Join Date: March 23, 2008 Location: Mid Missouri Posts: 807	Quote: the pressure on a 1/2 ounce 410 load is lesser than that of a 28 gauge in 3/4 ounce. Where on God's green earth did you come up with that? I just looked up some shotshell reloading on the Hodgdon website. I suggest you do the same and compare the pressure of .410 loads with the pressure of 28 gauge loads. Here is one example I found. .410 1/2 ounce load, pressures 9,600 to 12,300 psi. 28 gauge 3/4 ounce load, pressures 9,600 to 12,500 psi. Big pressure difference, wouldn't you say? Quote: This means more of a deformation in the 28 actually. I guess that extra 200 psi will turn those round lead projectiles into malformed disks! Please help me out here. Where does it say anything about 3/4 ounce 410 loadsin your post?

September 9, 2009, 03:15 PM	#20
johnbt Senior Member Join Date: December 6, 1999 Location: Richmond, Virginia USA Posts: 6,004	"Now if you had read my post carefully and under stood what I had written, I said the the 28 gauge load patterns better because it is throwing a third more shot and had nothing to do with shot deformation" I read it carefully, I said I didn't agree with it. A tall stack of pellets causes more deformation to the ones on the bottom layers than a shallower stack does. I've seen 28 ga. loads pattern better than larger gauge loads containing more shot. It's the same principle that has standard loads in any gauge patterning better than hulls stuffed as full of pellets as they can be. The English figured it out a century or two ago. That's how come there are such things as standard loads. John

September 9, 2009, 06:56 PM	#21
cottontop Member Join Date: October 9, 2008 Posts: 15	I'm not sure about the specifics, but I will say that for flying targets such as clays or birds the 28 is awesome. The 410 is the ultimate furry critter gitter.That's just my personal experience, nothing scientific involved.

September 9, 2009, 09:37 PM	#22
Kmar40 Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2009 Posts: 668	Since we're on the topic generally, may I ask why I should consider either the 28g (not really on the menu) or 410 (I have one) instead of a 20g with the light loads? They don't really kick either.

September 9, 2009, 09:39 PM	#23
BigJimP Senior Member Join Date: February 23, 2005 Posts: 13,195	No reason not to use a 20ga with 3/4 oz loads ( just like a 28ga ) .... but don't tell my wife ......I convinced her I needed that matched set of O/U's one in 28ga and one in .410 ( to match the same gun I already had in 20ga and in a 12ga ) ......they look real good lined up in the safe .... ( and they were only $ 2,500 each ....they were a steal)...

September 10, 2009, 09:35 AM	#25
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	Being a reloader, before I'd get MOST 28 gauges, a good 20 with 3/4 oz handloads would be first choice. The 28 is awesome, but many run a bit light for ol' behemoth me who is used to 8 lb shotguns. A friend was absolutely deadly with his H&H 28, but he freely admitted he shot it well only when it was all he shot. A 6 lb 20 with top quality 3/4 oz loads tweaked to the bore, mission and choke would be the best of both worlds,IMO. The restocked 870 YE here runs 6 lbs, 2oz. If I had more time and opportunity to upland hunt, it would be the tool of choice.