What Do You Do If You Are Involved In A Shooting?

[Jeff22]

Media Tactics
By Victoria Deaton
E-mail: [email protected]

Here goes...off the cuff...my basic rule on how to deal with reporters (mostly TV) when they show up at the shooting scene, and later on at your door and at the courthouse. I'll try and post a more concise version later. Grab a cup of coffee. It's a very long post but subtle nuances are important here. I'm not supporting or damning the media, just giving y'all a feel for what usually happens. If you have a shooting buddy, and you feel pretty comfortable with what I'm outlining, discuss a media plan with him and your attorney in case a shooting occurs to give you some level of preparedness. You may need your buddy as a designated family spokesman. Don't identify him as a shooting sports partner...just a "friend of the family".

I'll assume the shooting happened in a public place, making it a bit more high-profile, like in a road-rage situation where good guy and bad guy aren't immediately evident, unlike a situation where some guy broke into your house at night. The following thoughts are based on heavy media coverage in a town that has a big newspaper, several TV stations, and a neighboring town that has the same. You might get lucky and just get a reporter or two. Unless your local law enforcement agency's jurisdiction has 800MHz systems you can expect the media to show up shortly after the law enforcement officers are dispatched to the shooting scene. 800Mhz systems can cut down on what the media pick up on the scanner, but some law enforcement agency's are providing the media with 800 MHz receive-only radios upon request. In short, you may have to deal with reporters and cameras during one of the most stressful moments of your life. Stay cool, and take care of business.

At the scene, don't duck the cameras. It makes you look guilty. Never, EVER put your hand over or on the lens of a camera, or get in a shoving match with a photographer. It makes you look guilty and evasive, and the photographer in most jurisdictions can and will press charges. Most of all, it makes you look physically aggressive — not a good thing at this time. If you are in a patrol car, don't duck down; don't cover your head. If the officer can give you a copy of a report or even a piece of useless paper to look at, it's even better to look occupied. If not, a simple nod to a camera is okay. Do NOT talk to reporters or answer questions yelled at you. They will be set up in a line along the crime scene tape and a camera will always be on you. Reporters will be talking to the designated law enforcement officer spokesperson. There might be choppers overhead. Live vans and sat trucks will set up on sidewalks. The circus has come to town.

At some point you may have to walk into your local courthouse/police department. Expect cameras during this "walkdown". Again, don't duck. If you're cuffed in front, ask the law enforcement officer if you can fold a shirt or jacket over the cuffs. Photographers will be walking alongside, ahead, and behind you and scurrying pretty quickly. This is a function of having to have walkdown shots that are 30 seconds long plus having shots to edit, so they're gonna be moving pretty quickly and jockeying for position. Don't misinterpret this as aggression. Again, a nod is fine. Do NOT say anything more than "It's best I don't talk to you guys yet." if anything at all. Always use conversational language whenever possible. Walk tall. Don't slouch. Don't appear cocky. Just walk normally. You can do anything for 3 minutes and that's all the media wants at that point: pictures and maybe some sound (TV slang for "interview") with one of the folks involved in the shooting. Pray for a tornado, hurricane, landslide, meteorite...anything to divert crews (manpower) to other stories.

If you have an attorney at this point, coordinate a statement of some sort and contact your family to make sure they get the same message. The media will descend upon your house to get a shot of where you live and will probably knock on the door. If it was up to me, and if it's a high profile shooting, I'd put my family in a hotel room for a few days. Expect live trucks on the street. Expect your neighbors to be asked questions. The line your family is to use is "hi, guys...sorry, we just can't talk right now" if they are getting in the car to come down to the PD. Conversational english. Non-adversarial.

Reporters have deadlines. TV reporters have to have pictures and an interview for that deadline. TV folks will need something for 12 noon, 5pm, 530pm, 6pm, and 11pm, and the stuff will get regurgitated for the early am show at 6am or whatever; they call this "feeding the monster"--a huge demand for fresh pictures and interviews. They are not interviewing you because they want to or want to "nail" you. They are there because of managers who are competing to be #1 with the story, and that crew is the one that got dispatched. Don't take it personally. Depending on whether the shooting was a big deal they will do liveshots, and photographers will be looking for pictures. Did you use a pistol or an AR-15? Expect to see a shot on the news of a law enforcement officer handling it, and boy does that AR look big as hell. Simple COM (center of mass) shots from a Glock 19? Pictures of the brass on the street. A 12ga. fired at near point-blank range leaving a mess on the bad guy's car? Depending on the video standards (rules of what gore can be used on-air) at a station, that mess from the shotgun may show up. Shootings are ugly. The pictures won't be of you fighting for your life so that you can go home to your family, but of the aftermath. I think about these things because I've seen them for the past 12+ years and unfortunately the expected post-shooting media exposure affects my shoot/no-shoot decisions.

[Jeff22]

Media Tactics (part two)
By Victoria Deaton
E-mail: [email protected]

You can't control the pictures at the scene but at least you can control the soundbites from your "team" that go on TV and the quotes in the paper. Have your attorney work with someone you designate as a family representative, like your shooting buddy (who may better understand a defensive shooting situation than your non-shooting neighbor Barney does). First, get control of your personal situation: handle the Law enforcement officers, get your attorney on the horn, and call your family. Then use the attorney and your designated family spokesman to provide the media with a statement if they are on the story big time, even if the statement doesn't amount to much. Once it's approved by the attorney, have your friend Joe Soundbite go to the house, if that's where the media are camped out. If at all possible, give them a statement away from the house to draw them away from your family and neighbors. (If you ever once carted a shotgun out to your car on the way to the gunsmith and a clueless neighbor saw it, you can expect a soundbite on TV to the effect of "yeah, he was always playing with guns" or something stupid like that.)

Spokesman: "Hi, I'm Joe Soundbite, and since Fred Defendant is over at the police department helping out with the report, he's designated me to give you guys a brief statement. Before we get going, I'd like to ask for your help. First, we'd appreciate it if you folks will respect his family and give them some room. No one here in the house is going to make a statement. Second, any questions about the situation will need to be directed towards Todd Louis Green, his attorney, who will give you folks more info since he's working closely with the PD and with Fred. This okay? Good. Now I'm going to make a statement. You guys ready?(they'll all nod since they've been rolling tape all this time---it just makes you look as cooperative as possible) I can't answer any questions, but Fred is uninjured (or is being treated or whatever). He told the police that he'd cooperate in any way necessary. The situation happened while he was on his way to work/lunch/whatever. It's a stressful time for everyone involved, and we're cooperating fully with the authorities."
Two things have happened. You've gotten the message out that you don't want the media hounding you (more on that later) and you've given them a miniscule soundbite ("it happened on the way to work...he's cooperating") which is something benign but usable. Make sure your buddy sticks to the script. Keep the tone conversational, like you're telling your employees about a new policy. Firm, but conversational.

After the statement, the media will attempt to get more information. Joe Soundbite, your friend/spokesman, is to smile, shake his head, and say, "Geez guys, I can't give you any more than that since everyone is so busy and I don't have much info. But if you guys will help out and not hassle the family, we'll help out by giving you guys what you need in time to meet deadlines. Have you talked to the cops? They've been very helpful to us. Perhaps they can give you more than I can." He's identified Law enforcement officers as being "helpful" to you (that's subtle), and then ended the impromptu press conference.

This sort of deal making usually works when you've got a shooter who has been already identified as being in a "self-defense shooting". Remember the advice in other posts to tell cops "I' was afraid for my life"? That's a good thing. Remember that if it is a justifiable shooting, and the basic facts come out soon afterwards (reporters will interview law enforcement officer spokespeople on the scene) then you have a very good chance of working with media that will understand early on that it was a justifiable shooting. Good newspeople (they do still exist) will recognize the dynamics.
You can expect calls from the newspaper and TV stations all day and into the night and for a while after the shooting, so prepare your family accordingly. Stick to your spokesman unless your spouse is up to it. Joe or Spouse Soundbite is to repeat the script. Change a few words here and there as the hours progress so they have something different to put on the air...again, it's a sort of trade. If you give them tidbits to appease their editors and producers so that they can feed the monster, they'll give you a bit of room. They may contact your employer to find out what kind of person you are. Don't be surprised if they look for any criminal history...anything on the record will show up, particularly if the shooting has any hint of being anything other than self-defense. Going before a magistrate? If the magistrate permits, you may have cameras on you there as well.
When coming out of the Police Department, after talking to your attorney, you'll have another walkdown the same as before. Best to have your attorney come out, talk to reporters, and give a brief statement. If he's media savvy, he'll give the ground rules, just like Joe Soundbite did (see how this is coordinated?). It goes something like this:

Attorney: "Hey guys, gather round and I'll tell you what's up. First, no cameras for a second, okay? Fred is finishing up with the Police. It's been a long day, and we'd appreciate it if you'd give him and his family some room. That okay? Can you do that? We know you need statements and pictures, so here's the deal. He won't run from you guys if you don't chase him. I'm gonna give you guys a statement, answer as many questions as I can, and then we'll see if Fred is done and we'll walk out. How about we come out this door, we'll get in the elevator, and walk out the front door. He'll walk to the end of the block here and then we're gonna get in the car and that'll be it for today."

The attorney answers questions; his style at that point is his choice. He goes back and gets Fred (you), but before he comes out the door, he comes back out to the herd of reporters and says "we're about ready". What this does is look like you are cooperating fully, helping out the media who have been camped out not knowing when you'd appear. In essence, you are controlling your appearance, which is better than running the gauntlet. Give them a bit of what they want after setting up the guidelines. Most of the time, attorneys will help their client sneak out a back door. When that happens, media members form an impromptu "pool" that temporarily puts media competitors on the same team and increases resources...they will assign photographers to each door, with the agreement that whoever gets the video will share it with the other competing station. Again, give them a little bit, and they'll usually back off and won't resort to pool tactics or pack mentality. It works 90% of the time.

Do not discuss the case in any way shape or form. Don't give much personal information other than the most positive (Sunday school teacher, etc). Don't let anyone who is making statements say stuff like "Fred is well-trained...shoots IDPA...is on a tactics list." It will come out as "Fred trained to do this sort of shooting." THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS OFF THE RECORD, AND CAMERAS ARE ALWAYS ROLLING. It's the media version of "treat every gun as if it's loaded". Never let your guard down. Don't say anything stupid. Also, wireless mics are pretty much standard nowadays in TV. It's unethical, but sometimes a reporter will show up on a doorstep with no camera with the intention of getting someone on the record...with a photographer nearby recording the audio and pictures. Never be afraid to ask if you are being recorded (and ask them to stop if necessary and insist on an off-camera interview), and always assume that you are being recorded anyway to be safe. A good reporter will knock on the door, politely ask if you (or family member) will consent to be interviewed on camera. If not, will you make a statement off-camera? If not, can they get pictures of you and the reporter talking but without sound? You may feel like not saying anything, and that is your right. But if nothing else, comply with the last one (reasons follow), but be sure and ask if they are recording the conversation. Remember that while you may not want to give a statement, the victim's family certainly will, and it is best to be on the record in some way that makes you human. But do it in a controlled fashion. Never lose your cool, even if the reporter is a jerk. Let your attorney handle the folks who are on your private property against your wishes *after* you have officially, politely asked them to leave. Have your attorney place a phone call to the station's general manager or the newspaper's publisher. Crap rolls downhill, and no news director wants to hear from their boss that an employee was acting unethically. Expect to hear some sort of excuse about "reporting the news", so don't bother calling unless it's over-the-top aggressive tactics.

If the police report comes out favorably to the shooter, have the attorney, or family member, leak a copy of it. Send it first to the reporters who are cooperating with your request for some privacy.

Do NOT threaten reporters/photographers. One incident a few years back had a shooter threatening to *shoot* reporters if they came on his property. Not good <g>. If they do come onto your property, let the cops know. If the shooting happened on your property, the media will be behind crime scene tape and that distance is determined by Law enforcement officers. They will also look for other angles, like the street behind your house.

[Jeff22]

Media Tactics (part three)
By Victoria Deaton
E-mail: [email protected]

Take a look at your property and where the public right-of-way is. Once the crime scene tape comes down, the media knows where the right of way is and will sit there. This means that they can't sit on your lawn, but they can shoot from the sidewalk, or across the street. Remember that if you take an adversarial position with them, they will find ways to get pictures that are worse than those that you control--i.e, the controlled walkdown, the statement on the steps, etc. If you can get them away from your house by keeping all the statements at the PD or attorney's office, even better.
Also remember that the victim's family will be involved and may be interviewed. They *will* provide pictures of the victim to the media. As you can expect, the picture won't be of a snarling, crazed gunman who pulled a gun on you. It will be a picture of him at a family cookout or some pre-crack-addiction picture with him smiling and looking nice and neat, or him accepting the employee of the year award at work. You'll hear the relatives say "He was a great dad/son...he never hurt anyone...now what will we do now that Sally has no daddy?" That picture and interview will be shown in the same report as your picture going into the courthouse. The victim's family can talk for hours and make themselves heard to every reporter who will interview them. You're stuck with short soundbites through your attorney and spokesman at first. This is why image is so darned important. If the shooting incident goes as far as to change legislation (the Seagroves shooting in NC, for example) the pictures will be trotted out for years to come whenever the issue arises. Image is everything. Don't lose your cool. Take care of business with the Law enforcement officers and your attorney, then take care of your family. Make sure if you have kids that you help them deal with the focus that will be on your family. Keep young kids away from the TV initially since the pictures from the scene may be frightening to them. As soon or someone you trust has time, explain in appropriate detail the situation and the resulting publicity. Your kids may take some crap at school; your kid's teacher or guidance counselor may be able to help. Again, never release any info that may come back to haunt you.

Never play up to the camera. No Bible-thumping. No false tears (remember Susan Smith? Every newsroom in the county knew within 10 seconds of her first interview that she was guilty). No matter what you think of the media, there are usually professionals here and there in very market who will give balanced reports right up until the point where they feel you are manipulating them beyond what can be reasonably expected, but no further. Understand what they need to "feed the monster", give them enough to keep them out of your hair, but do not give them anything that will ever come back to haunt you.

Just my 2¢ worth. The counsel of your attorney and local Law enforcement officers takes precedence and none of this is legal advice.YMMV, etc. I'll be more than happy to answer any specific questions and I promise I won't be as long-winded.

Victoria Deaton is a Photojournalist with over 12 years of experience working for major news organizations. She is also an avid shooter and an advocate of the 2nd Amendment and carrying concealed weapons.

This article was originally posted to the "Tactics List,"
an e-mail listserve sponsored by
COMTAC, Ltd. Firearms Training
List instructions are available at the COMTAC home page

[Jeff22]

INTERVENTION IN A DEADLY FORCE ENCOUNTER
as instructed in the JUDICIOUS USE OF DEADLY FORCE Class (LFI-1)
presented by Massad Ayoob of the Lethal Force Institute
in Bloomington, Illinois 14 April 2000

Stages of Intervention:
(1.) Interaction with the suspect
(2.) Interaction with witnesses
(3.) Interaction with first responding police officers
(4.) Interaction with Police Investigators

(1.) INTERACTION WITH THE SUSPECT

SITUATIONAL DOMINANCE or TACTICAL ADVANTAGE -- Your ideal challenge
position would involve your being behind cover that would stop hostile fire at the same time that you were being concealed from hostile observation.

The Verbal Challenge:
(1.) Ideally, challenge from a position of cover or concealment.
(2.) Use a command voice.
(3.) Give clear commands.
(4.) Give simple commands.
If you are a police officer, identify yourself first!
"Don't move"
"Put your hands up"
"Turn around"
"Show me your hands"
(5.) Don't use profanity -- it sounds bad to witnesses and makes you look
like the aggressor.

"If you don't project power and authority in your verbal challenge, then they won't take you seriously, even if you are holding a gun on them. Resist the temptation to be profane or clever like "Dirty Harry" in the movies. Give simple and clear commands in a loud and powerful voice. Project confidence and they will usually obey and submit. Be prepared if they don't obey your commands. The street-wise criminal has a pretty good idea about when you can use force or not, and may not believe that you're prepared to shoot. If they run off, that's fine. They are no longer presenting a threat, so for this moment the problem is solved, and hopefully the cops can catch him later. You can't use deadly force against a fleeing suspect, and most of the street creeps are well awareof that. They know that the cops know that. " -- Massad Ayoob/14 April 2000

Don't direct the suspect "Put the Gun down!" because you have just given him permission to move with the gun in his hand. If he is practiced, or lucky, he may be able to get a snap shot off at you before you can tell that his physical movement is not in conformity with your commands. Tell him "drop the gun" instead.

If you yell out "Drop the Gun!" or "Drop the Knife!" it tells witnesses or your friends or the other cops what's going down. Part of surviving the gunfight is proper management of your witnesses.

However, under stress it is hard to select among options. Yelling "Drop the Weapon!" might be better under great stress, but it doesn't identify the nature of the threat for others nearby.

If you order them to put their hands up, make them turn their palms toward you and raise their hands all the way up until the elbows lock. (If the joint is locked, it takes twice as long to move than would take a relaxed, flexed joint. Also, if you make them "reach for the sky", it may lift any outer garment up high enough on their torso to allow you to see a gun hidden in their waistband.

Holding a Suspect at Gunpoint:
(1.) Finger off the trigger
(2.) Decock if needed
(3.) Aim at the pelvic girdle. Quick multiple shots to the pelvic girdle may
break the bone and impair their mobility. Also, it keeps your hands holding
the gun out of the sight line between your eyes and his hands. Don't do anything to block your view of his hands!
(4.) A shot to the pelvic girdle may break the structural integrity of the body, dropping your attacker forward onto his face and into the track of your continuing gunfire.You may have to break the pelvis in multiple places to drop him. (Heavy bullets work best to break bone)
(5.) If you aim at the pelvic girdle, and you have to shoot, if a bullet over-penetrates or misses, it is already aimed at a downward track and thus less likely to hit any bystanders.
(6.) If they have a full bladder and you hit them with a high velocity bullet, they may essentially blow up. The fluid shock wave can be enormous and can create vascular overload by itself.

Your Priorities:
(1.) Take cover
(2.) Secure the scene
(3.) Summon police and medical assistance
(4.) Identify witnesses
(5.) Identify physical evidence
(6.) Wait for the police

Remember that the back guys have backup too -- "scouts" (or "outriders")
functioning as lookouts outside the target location (may be armed with heavy weapons),and "tailgunners" inside prepared to prevent any armed intervention. Don't get involved in an armed robbery unless people start getting hurt!

[Jeff22]

INTERVENTION IN A DEADLY FORCE ENCOUNTER
as instructed in the JUDICIOUS USE OF DEADLY FORCE Class (LFI-1)
presented by Massad Ayoob of the Lethal Force Institute
in Bloomington, Illinois 14 April 2000


(2.) INTERACTION WITH THE WITNESSES

Managing the Witnesses at the Scene after the shooting:
(1.) "Stay back! He still has a weapon!"
(2.) "Has he hurt anyone else? Look around and see!"
(3.) "Call the Police! Call an Ambulance!"

When a sudden dramatic event occurs, witnesses who are not involved will be startled by all the action. A violent incident like a car wreck or a fight or a shooting occurs, and bystanders suddenly have their attention drawn to a dramatic event. What they observe will be out of context, and thus confusing.

When people watch stuff on TV or in the movies, the story has a beginning, a middle, and an end. In real life, this isn't true. Stuff just happens. In real life, you can't hit "rewind" and replay stuff in slow motion to see what really happened. It's like witnessing a car wreck that you aren't involved in. You don't know who's driving the car. You don't know where they were coming from, or where they're going. All you know is that the blue Chevy just hit the telephone pole. Unless you were looking directly at the intersection, you don't even know if the blue Chevy ran the stop sign or the red light or what.
The problem is, witnesses tend to fill in the blanks about the parts that they don't know. This is called "confabulation".

CONFABULATION -- to fill in gaps in memory by fabrication.

"We all know that witnesses to a sudden violent event are highly undependable. There are several reasons for this. Of course, being startled by an unexpected event has a lot to do with it. They aren't paying attention. They're minding their own business, and then BAM! something unusual happens, but they aren't paying attention. If you aren't looking for it, you won't see it! Also, eyewitnesses who observed some portion of a dramatic incident don't always realize that they only saw part of the action. They assume that because they saw part of the action, they must've seen all of the action.
Aso remember, human beings like to make sense of the world around them. They are used to stories that have a beginning, a middle, and an end. They unconsciously try to place events they witness into context so that it makes sense to them. In a very short period of time, they will confuse what they witnessed with what they visualized in their mind's eye as they attempt to put the events they witnessed into context." -- Massad Ayoob


Dr. Elizabeth Loftus has extensively studied the process of memory in the human mind, and has served as an expert witness in many criminal cases. Her books include: Eyewitness Testimony and Witness for the Defense: The accused, the eyewitnesses, and the expert who puts memory on trial.

Interesting trivia about witness descriptions: eye glasses and facial hair dominate the face. Those are the first things that people will focus on when giving a description.

(3.) INTERACTION WITH THE POLICE COMMUNICATIONS OPERATOR

(1.) Give your address
(2.) Tell them exactly what's going on without going into un-necessary detail:
" I live at 27 Elm Street. There's an intruder in my house RIGHT NOW.
I have him at gunpoint RIGHT NOW. I live at 27 Elm Street."
(3.) Don't begin at the beginning and chronologically describe everything that
has happened. The Dispatcher doesn't need to know and doesn't care! Get to
the point! You can explain the other details later to the responding officers.
(4.) Repeat your address so that they know for sure where you are.
(5.) STAY ON THE LINE!
(6.) Give the cops your description -- race and gender, how you're dressed, etc.
(7.) Tell them where in the house you are located and how they can get to you -- will a family member meet them at the door or do they have to break in, or what?
(8.) Give them a description of the suspect, so there will be no problems of
mistaken identity once the police arrive.



(4.) INTERACTION WITH THE FIRST RESPONDING POLICE OFFICERS

(1.) When they arrive, do exactly as they say. If they tell you to put your gun down, then put it down. If they handcuff you, don't resist. Self defense situations are very chaotic, and the average officer does not go to many incidents involving a legitimate display or delivery of force by a law-abiding citizen, so it may take them quite a while to figure out what's going on.
(2.) What do you tell the cops?
-- "This man tried to attack me"
-- "The evidence is here"
-- "The witnesses are here"
-- "I will sign the complaint"
-- "I will cooperate with the prosecution"
-- "I will cooperate with the investigation, but I'm kind of upset right now. I will cooperate with the investigation and make a full statement after I've had time to gather my thoughts and speak to my attorney."
(3.) You need to give enough of a statement so that the police have an idea about what happened. In particular, they need to know who potential witnesses are and where relevant physical evidence might be located. At the scene, they need enough information to begin the investigation and properly manage the crime scene. Remember, the police equate silence with guilt! The only people who utilize the "right to remain silent" are those with something to hide, so a carefully worded statement is probably in your best interest.

"At the scene, tell the responding officers a synopsis of the incident. Cops connect silence with guilt. Almost everybody they ever deal with who asks for a lawyer turns out to be guilty. Tell them what they need to know to get an idea about what just happened. Especially identify any witnesses so that the cops know who to talk to, and point out any potential evidence that they might otherwise overlook. Help them to do their job better. If you are perceived as obstructing the investigation, that perception is NOT in your best interest." -- Massad Ayoob


SURVIVAL FOR ARMED CITIZENS, PLAINCLOTHES COPS, and
OFF DUTY COPS

(1.) Contact the police. Explain the situation. Describe your physical description so that they know who to look for to prevent a "mistaken identity shooting".

(2.) If the event takes place within a building, you need to designate a
"welcoming committee" for the police. Somebody needs to meet the police
at the door, and that somebody needs to be able to repeat the explanation.

(3.) In the case of an enclosed incident, such as the armed robbery of a business, it is desirable for someone to lock all exterior doors and to only open them for uniformed police. This keeps any robbers outside from rescuing their friends, and can prevent witnesses who "don't want to be involved" from slipping out in the confusion.

(4.) Control Yourself!
-- Keep your muzzle off the cops!
-- Don't point the gun at any responding officers by mistake
-- Follow directions from the police


If you're involved in a shooting, give a brief statement to the investigator at the scene. Don't give a detailed statement until you get a chance to calm down, collect your thoughts, and talk to an attorney. GIVE THEM ENOUGH INFORMATION TO GET STARTED IN THE INVESTIGATION. Where is the evidence? Where was the point of entry where he broke into your house? Who are the witnesses?


"Under fire, you will not be able to keep track of how many rounds you fire! We call it the "fire four, reload eight" phenomenon. Under stress, you will experience what is called "cognitive dissonance" which means that your thought processes will be all jumbled up. Your perception of time and distance will be altered and may not be accurate. History has taught us that if you fire more than two or three rounds in a self-defense scenario, you WILL forget how many rounds you've fired. Sometimes, an investigator who does not understand this dynamic seizes upon this inconsistency as evidence of deception. It is nothing of the kind. When they ask you how many rounds that you fired, tell them: "I don't know. I was in fear for my life. I didn't have time to count . . . "
-- Massad Ayoob

[Jeff22]

Always remember:
Most police seldom if ever investigate a legitimate self-defense shooting incident. If you are uncooperative, it makes it that much harder for them to figure out what actually happened. Innocent people usually DO NOT invoke their rights against testimonial self incrimmination -- they can't wait to tell the investigating officers all about what happened BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T DO ANYTHING WRONG! Right or wrong, cops equate "silence" with "guilt". You can rant and rave all you want about your "rights" but the first right you have is to be responsible for your actions!

That being said, be careful what you say, but it's best that you give them a little bit of information so they can start the investigation, and then ask for your lawyer. If there is evidence or witnessess that can verify your side of the story, the police need to know that. You can't assume they're just going to magically figure it out for themselves. If you want to avoid a great deal of trouble, you're going to have to cooperate with the investigation. But be very careful what you say!

[Jeff22]

PRINCIPLES OF PERSONAL DEFENSE by Col. Jeff Cooper

THE STREET-SMART GUN BOOK by John. S. Farnam

THE FARNAM METHOD OF DEFENSIVE HANDGUNNING (new 2nd edition)by John. S. Farnam

THE FARNAM METHOD OF DEFENSIVE SHOTGUN & RIFLE SHOOTING by John S. Farnam

IN THE GRAVEST EXTREME: THE ROLE OF THE FIREAMR IN PERSONAL PROTECTION by Massad F. Ayoob

THE TRUTH ABOUT SELF PROTECTION by Massad F. Ayoob

ARMED RESPONSE by David S. Kenik

THE LAW OF SELF DEFENSE: A GUIDE FOR THE ARMED CITIZEN by Andrew F. Branca (out-of-print and hard to find!)

The first step for the armed citizen is to find out what the law on self defense in their state REALLY is, and not what some gunshop commando THINKS it is. Then they need to select an appropriate weapon and learn how to use it, learn to think tactically and focus on prevention, detection, and avoidance. Of course, the gun handling and marksmanship is the fun part, but knowledge of the rest of those topics is critical.

Every state has their statutes available on line and statute books can be found in your local library. Go read what the law is in YOUR state.

And beware asking cops about the law -- they usually know those parts that they enforce or deal with on a regular basis pretty well, but may not know much about other topics, AND THEY DON'T KNOW THEY DON'T KNOW! The same thing with a general practice attorney, who doesn't do criminal cases much, nor have a familiarity with self-defense issues. THEY MAY NOT KNOW, AND THEY WON'T KNOW THAT THEY DON'T KNOW!

[Baba Louie]

Thank you Jeff22 for posting some very interesting and enlightening reading. Might have to print that out for re-reading...

[brickeyee]

“Innocent people usually DO NOT invoke their rights against testimonial self incrimmination -- they can't wait to tell the investigating officers all about what happened BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T DO ANYTHING WRONG! Right or wrong, cops equate "silence" with "guilt".”

Good thing they will not be making the decision to prosecute.
A District Attorney will be reviewing the police reports, and in many (probably most) places they are elected. If they are of the lefty persuasion you can easily find yourself on the wrong side of an indictment. Anything you say can easily be twisted. Remember the line about indicting a ham sandwich? Say nothing. Nada. Zilch.
If you feel you must say something “He was trying to kill me.”

Do not give any information to the police beyond your identity.
It is not your job to convince them you are innocent, or that the shooting was self defense, or aid them in the investigation. Even knowing the location of evidence could easily be misconstrued, and could also indicate you had more control of your faculties after the event to your detriment.

Ayoob is still a policeman and thinks like an agent of the state. You will not be accorded the same deference he might be.

Ask your own attorney and I will bet the answer will be “Say nothing.”


You can rant and rave all you want about your "rights" but the first right you have is to be responsible for your actions!
I cannot seem to find that one in the Constitution. Care to point it out?
Rights are not responsibilities, they are things inherent to being a person.

[springmom]

Quote:
You may not have a scratch on you, but you're going to likely need the attention.



why, if your not hurt?

Well, you may be hurt and not aware of it...heaven knows we've read often enough about police officers who have to have their injuries pointed out to them before they even realize they're injured! But equally important, it's quite possible that you will go into shock. That's a physiological problem, not just a psychological one, and if so, you are going to need physiological help. Maybe you won't need it at all. Ok. But it's just a piece of advice I'm passing on, which seems a good idea to me.

Springmom

[Hard Ball]

First things first. Reload!

[Kowboy]

All:

Anytime you're subject to possible arrest, from a traffic ticket to a shooting, the only words out of your mouth should be: " Respectfully sir, I have no comment without counsel." Repeat as necessary.

Cops are paid by the hour. Who cares how long it takes for your lawyer to get there? Your obligation is looking out for number one, not helping the friendly policeman do his job. So you've made his efforts at convicting you much more difficult by not speaking. Who cares?

You know the second amendment, get familiar with the fifth.

Kowboy

[Dreadnought]

There are certain laws that preclude your injunction of "self defense" after the fact so it must be stated immediately. I have been instructed to repeat the following statement until the fourth or fifth time I have been asked it, at which point you aske to speak to the supervisor and tell him the officers are harassing you.
"This was self-defense. I want to cooperate, but I can't give you any statement until I speak with my attorney."
Use of deadly force must be justified by the protection from danger to innocent human life, not danger to property.
Silence never sent a man to jail, but erroneous, irretractable statements can, especially if the prosecutor has an axe to grind for whatever reason. Your hearing will most likely be before a grand jury at which point the decision is made to whether it was self-defense or if the DA will prosecute criminal charges.
Laws vary state to state, and some or all of the above content may not apply to anyone.

[pickpocket]

I think that most of this "don't say anything without an attorney" debate is really generated by people who either fear or dislike police officers. That sentiment is supported by more than one comment made here.

However, maybe the real issue is that this is a somewhat emotional issue and that people are understandably fearful of being hung out to dry by our legal system.

If you are involved in a shooting (no matter how justified) there are a few things that people need to remember. For one, your weapon is going to get confiscated - understand that. You will get it back assuming there are no criminal elements that lead to an indictment on your part.
Secondly, you may very likely find yourself in front of a Grand Jury, or at a preliminary hearing if your State doesn't have a Grand Jury, explaining why you felt justified using deadly force. If you don't believe this, then you need to go back and review your State's use-of-force statutes.

In all of this debate about whether or not to say anything to the police on scene, I have yet to hear anything about what benefit staying silent gets you other than it keeps the "man" from trying to prosecute you, or giving the "man" ammunition for a criminal case.
As I said above, you already stand a high probability of standing in front of a judge or grand jury and getting an opportunity to tell your side of the story.

The police arriving on scene will have to try to piece together the situation not from first-hand experience, but as all investigators do - by talking to witnesses. While it is true that the police will not be the ones prosecuting you, they WILL be the ones who determine the direction the larger investigation will go, so we all need to understand what role we play in that. By refusing to cooperate without an attorney, the seeds of distrust will have been planted in the investigator's mind. If you are not willing to give ANY information to the investigator, then they will have to rely on other sources for that information - and those witnesses could be friendly to the now-dead assailant or they could be anti-gun...point is, you don't know, and you don't want THEM to be the ones whose information decides the initial direction of the investigation because you refused to talk.

There is no harm in tellining police what happened. What everyone needs to remember is that you in no way are required to tell them every little detail - mostly because you will not remember every little detail, and you do not want to paint an incorrect picture up front and then be forced to reconcile with it later; that just isn't going to look good and any prosecutor or plaintiff's attorney will eat it up.

Sensible advice would be to briefly describe the situation that led to the shooting; "Officer, that man tried to stab my wife and I shot him to protect her life."...or something to that effect. There is no need to make a detailed statement, and if a police officer requests one of you then it is at that time you need to invoke your right to speak with your attorney. You will have fulfilled the investigator's basic need for information and you will have avoided painting yourself into a corner with sketchy or false details. One of the most common phenomena under stress is sensory exclusion - meaning that you will not immediately be able to recall everything that happened, even if it was in your direct line of sight. In fact, research shows that what you will most likely remember will be chunks and disjointed pieces. Do not attempt to work through that while still sitting on the sidewalk 10 minutes after being forced to defend your life.
And finally - do not make written statements for the police. Work through your attorney to prepare a written statement which can be supplied to the investigator and whoever else wants it.
If the police give you grief over it and ask you why you won't give them more information or sign a written statement, your reply should be something along the lines of, "Officer, for the same reasons that you won't make an official statement after a shooting without involving your union attorney."

We all have a responsibility to understand exactly what it is that we're telling people to do, and this is definitely one of those topics that is less appropriate for emotional opinions and more appropriate for responsible, sensible advice. The real message should not be "Don't talk to the police" because that's just going to cause problems. The real message should be that once you have given sufficient information to the investigator you need be careful about signing anything.

[Jeff22]

Psycho-Physiological Responses to Danger:

Under normal, non-stressful conditions, the body is under the control of the parasympathetic nervous system. Under conditions of stress or danger, the body switches to the control of the sympathetic nervous system. This happens when the cerebral cortex in the brain senses danger, and sends out nerve impulses along the sympathetic branch of the body’s nervous system. These nerve impulses cause a number of specific effects, including:
 accelerated heart rate
 increased blood pressure
 increased blood flow to large muscle groups
 increased muscular tension in the lower back, neck, and shoulders
 increased respiration
 increased audio and visual perception
 decreased sensitivity to pain
 increased blood sugar, which increases short-term energy
 stimulated adrenaline secretion

[Jeff22]

Body Alarm Reaction/Fight or Flight Syndrome
 Fine motor coordination significantly impaired. Trembling begins first in the weak hand, then in the strong hand, then in the knees.
 Tachypsychia (Greek for “the speed of the mind”) – the distortion of the way that the mind perceives the passage of time. Events may either speed up or slow down. In a life-or-death situation, the mind kicks into overdrive, perceiving much more information than is customary. This causes the perception that things are happening in slow motion, even though you – and your opponent – are probably moving faster than you ever have before. Tachypsychia can work in reverse (“it all happened so fast”). In general, the more experienced and highly trained a person is, the more likely it is that the person will experience Tachypsychia. A person who is experienced in confrontation is less likely to be surprised by sudden action, and more likely to respond with super-heightened awareness. An “average” person who is an accidental witness to a dramatic event (like a car accident or a shooting) will usually perceive that events happened with great speed, because they were caught by surprise and unaccustomed to such situations.
 Tunnel Vision – the mind focuses on the deadly threat to the exclusion of much of one’s ordinary peripheral vision. It appears as if one is looking at the threat through a tunnel, and it requires conscious effort to see more than a few degrees to the right or left or up or down. This is why officers are drilled in physically turning their head and checking their environment after firing, even in practice. Physically turning the head helps break up the effect of tunnel vision. Also, tunnel vision explains why in practice using picture targets, in role playing simulations using paintball guns and in real gunfights why so many participants are hit in the hands and forearms. The hands contain the firearm or knife or club that is the threat, and the operator visually locks on to the threat object to the exclusion of all else.
 Auditory Exclusion– a kind of stress induced deafness. Auditory exclusion is largely a function of the brain’s cortex. The brain has kicked into the fight or flight reflex, focusing on the threat and screening out everything extraneous to immediate survival. One is still – physically – seeing and hearing as usual, but the brain is screening lots of things out.
 Cortical Perception – Under stress, the cortex of the brain automatically focuses on that information most critical for survival and discards the rest. Some detail may be recalled later, but if short-term memory didn’t pick it up, it may be lost forever. VERY COMMON in stressful situations of all kinds.
 Precognition – this has to do with having seen something so many times that you “see it coming” before the un-threatened observer – such as a witness – does. The connection with the fight or flight reflex is that in a deadly threat situation the mind draws on memory resources that are not typically activated. Precognition is a response to a subconsciously perceived clue, and is the scientific explanation of a “hunch”. Precognition is the subconscious recognition of an impending threat – recognizing precursors to certain behaviors or events, sometimes without realizing what your have recognized.
 Denial Response – caused by an overload of the mind’s emotional control resources. An example: you get a totally unexpected phone call telling you that a close family member has died. Your first response may be denial that the event even occurred. Very common. A police officer just involved in a shooting may say, “My gun went off” instead of “I shot him”. Remember, there is justification when acting in self-defense, but there is no justification for an unintentional act!


 Amaurosis Fugax – a stress induced temporary blindness. While “visual white out” is relatively rare, what is commonly called “hysterical blindness” is less so. The eyes have seen something so terrifying that the brain refuses to see it anymore. This is much more likely to happen to the untrained, to those unprepared to deal with potential violence or sudden danger. One result of amaurosis fugax often causes the actor to flee the scene of the incident. In criminal investigation, the assumption is that flight equates with guilt, and that a person who did right will stand his ground to explain as need be; the person who flees does so because there is culpability involved.
 Psychological Splitting – the more highly trained and experienced a person is, the more apt he or she is to experience this. When you have trained something to the point that you can perform automatically – coupled with some event that triggers the fight or flight reflex – the body moves so fast that the conscious mind can’t keep up. This can result in the altered perception of watching oneself do something. If you experience this, you would be well-served not to mention it in the initial debrief to the investigators: unless they’re unusually experienced or well trained, they may think you’re crazy.
 Excorporation – out of body experience, the highest manifestation of psychological splitting. This is most commonly seen on operating tables after clinical death, and is often combined with the perception of the “white tunnel of light”. It is also seen in gunfights with persons who think they are about to die. Its cause is that the survival instinct is taking all bodily senses into overdrive and into a state of hyper-perception. In this state, the mind can generate 3-D images from sounds and recollected sights. Even when the body is unconscious, the ears can still hear and the eyes (if they are still open) can still see. Even at clinical death, the brain may live for another 8 to 10 minutes.
 State of Fugue – a somnambulant, zombie-like state. Rarely seen.
 Cognitive Dissonance – a state of confusion. Common manifestations include remembering events out of sequence, or trivial things being retained and important things being lost to short-term memory immediately after the incident. Under stress, the mind processes more information faster than usual, and sometimes gets perceptions mixed up. (In this case, the mind can be compared to a camera with a motor drive, taking photos of the action. Because of the stress reaction, the brain "mixes up" these "photos" out of sequence when storing the images in the short term memory).


PRE-COGNITION: The scientific explanation of a "hunch" -- perception of cues that indicate that a particular event is about to occur. This perception may be made by the subconscious mind, which may make it hard to explain later! For example, you are facing a potential threat that suddenly moves, dropping his right shoulder and bringing his elbow back as though beginning the draw stroke. Your subconscious mind may recognize these actions as consistent with a suspect attempting to draw a concealed handgun, and you may react before your conscious mind has "caught up".

DENIAL RESPONSE: The verbal reaction to a sudden, unexpected traumatic event. For example, a person may employ justified deadly force and shoot an attacker, and then under the stress of the incident make the statement "The gun just went off" even though their firing the gun was an intentional act.

As a general rule, under stress your perception of distance will be impaired. You may perceive the threat to be 10 feet away, but in actuality he was 30 feet away.

Under stress, you will not have an accurate recollection of how many rounds you fired. If you fire more than two rounds, the chances are you will completely lose track of how many rounds were expended. This is often called the "shoot two -- reload six" phenomenon.

[ArcherAndShooter]

I like the advice about having an attorney on retainer. I have a question, though. How do you go about finding one who understands and is sympathetic to 2nd amendment issues? The ABA is a pretty liberal organization, and I don't know of other resources, as I've never had the need before, so I've never looked.

Also, how much should we expect to pay as retainer fees, and what do you get for that fee?

Thanks in advance.

[brickeyee]

"I think that most of this "don't say anything without an attorney" debate is really generated by people who either fear or dislike police officers."

The police are not the ones who will be making the determination about prosecuting.
That task will fall to a local District Attorney, who may or may not be sympathetic (and it even may depend on the election cycle).
The police are agents of the state and obligated to report anything they see or hear to the DA.

I think your problem is you have never been involved in any type of legal proceedings.
You are not required to help someone who will then provide evidence against you. Period. Even if the police have all the sympathy in the world and fully agree it was a ‘clean shoot’, they are not the arbiters.

All you need is a gung-ho DA and you will be spending a fortune paying your attorneys. Why damage your case?
I was personally told by a DA in Arlington, Virginia that any shooting in the county will result in your arrest. Period. The police are forced to obey this (and I have no doubt they will).

[pickpocket]

Originally Posted by brickeyee

I think your problem is you have never been involved in any type of legal proceedings.
You are not required to help someone who will then provide evidence against you. Period. Even if the police have all the sympathy in the world and fully agree it was a ‘clean shoot’, they are not the arbiters.

All you need is a gung-ho DA and you will be spending a fortune paying your attorneys. Why damage your case?

With all due respect - I think you skipped the rest of my post; thereby missing the point.
I fully explained the difference between the "don't say ANYTHING" paranoia that is being espoused in many posts here and the need to tell the investigating officer SOMETHING if for no other reason than that you don't want the first pieces of information coming from witnesses who may be sympathetic to the person who just got shot or who may not have seen the whole thing take place and are filling in sketchy pieces with what they 'think' they saw.

The decision to prosecute will come from the DA, but the indictment will come from either a judge or a grand jury, depending on your jurisdiction. You will have an opportunity to tell your story, so as long as you avoid signing your name to a statement without your attorney involved you are fine. It doesn't hurt to give a very simple statement to the investigating authority.

To advise otherwise shows either a complete lack of regard for the investigative process or, at worst, a total disrespect for the police who will be conducting the investigation. At best, it shows an inadequate understanding of the legal process.

[brickeyee]

"You will have an opportunity to tell your story, so as long as you avoid signing your name to a statement without your attorney involved you are fine."

Dead wrong. What you say is fully admissible.

"To advise otherwise shows either a complete lack of regard for the investigative process or, at worst, a total disrespect for the police who will be conducting the investigation. At best, it shows an inadequate understanding of the legal process."

The legal process is that you are not required to say anything. Not one word.
The police do not make the decisions.
you remember the Miranda warning? You think the Supreme court does not understand the process?

"Anything you say can be used against you."

Get it?
To hell with convincing a policeman you have done nothing wrong.
They are not in any position to help you, and in a very strong position to harm you.
They DO NOT MAKE THE DECISIONS.

Ask your attorney. He will tell you to say NOTHING.
But he does not understand the investigative process or the law either I guess.

[mvpel]

To hell with convincing a policeman you have done nothing wrong.
They are not in any position to help you, and in a very strong position to harm you.

And as has been demonstrated in a variety of cases from around the country, they actively work to harm you.

[pickpocket]

You are blatantly ignoring my points and choosing to provide responses that have nothing to do with the arguments I have made.

I never indicated that what you told the investigators would not be admissible in court. I stated that you will either go before a grand jury (or a judge for a preliminary hearing, depending on your State) and THEY will determine if there are criminal elements in your case. Not the police, not the DA.

I never suggested that we have any obligation to convince the police that we have done nothing wrong - quite the opposite. Rather than go back through it, I will refer you to my original post.

Attorneys know the law very well - to imply that I don't understand that is juvenile. However, attorneys get paid by the hour their advice will ALWAYS be to never make a single move without them.

Let's look at it this way - if you take a hard line and refuse to tell the police ANYTHING without your attorney then I submit that you are severely limiting their choices when it comes to whether or not you should be arrested. It harms nothing to say "This man tried to stab me and I shot him in self-defense." If that's the truth, then I do not see how that simple statement being admissible in court can harm your case.

Like I said, ultimately is's up to you - the individual - what path to take. My advice stands, and it's worth what you paid for it - it matters not one bit to me if anyone follows it.

Originally Posted by mvpel

And as has been demonstrated in a variety of cases from around the country, they actively work to harm you.

References, please.

[Baba Louie]

There's no one right or wrong answer that's going to cover all of the potential situations you might find yourself using deadly force to protect your life. Home, office, car, parking lot, walking your dog, etc.; each are different enough and may or may not have credible witnesses nearby who saw or heard anything of use.

I'd say it's a given that, you will (probably) lose the weapon used to defend your life.

Cops have heard "It was self defense" before. They might be a tad bit cynical... then again, if you're in your p.j.'s at 0 dark thirty in your own front room...

You'll probably get a free ride downtown until the authorities decide they know reasonably well what happened, who is whom and what is what... an attorney could be useful here, neh?

You'll probably never get a ride in your attorney's mercedes/bmw/porshe/jaguar that you're going to help him pay for.

Hopefully you'll be alive and unhurt physically. Your mental anguish might take a hit or two as will your savings account.

What's right for you may not work for me. One size does not fit all. There's some great advice in the above posts worth thinking about. I plan on doing so.

[brickeyee]

"I stated that you will either go before a grand jury (or a judge for a preliminary hearing, depending on your State) and THEY will determine if there are criminal elements in your case. Not the police, not the DA."

Do you understand who decides to bring the case before the judge or grand jury?
The first step in prosecution falls to the DA.
Nothing goes before a judge or grand jury without a DA putting it there.
As the accused you may not even be offered the opportunity to appear before the grand jury or the judge.
Statements by witnesses and police alone may be presented.
You may not even be notified the proceedings are occurring.

Self defense is an affirmative defense. You will be admitting to the charge of homicide, and then pointing to mitigating factors that make it justifiable or excusable (these are the Virginia words; other states use other words/phrases).
This is not territory to enter without a knowledgeable attorney standing with you.
Can a simple description harm you? Easily.
Can a simple description help you? Probably not.

Do you want to listen to a policeman testify you were ‘so calm and cool you could give him a statement after shooting someone in cold blood’?

[pickpocket]

Agree to disagree. To continue this would be unproductive.