BP rifle question?

[Johnywinslow]

I have just recieved my second BP revolver a 51 navy sheriff (pieta) I stripped it of its blueing and plated it with a dull nickle, it looks awesome very authentic looking, Ill post picks when i get batteries for the camera, anyway I am looking for a rifle next I am torn between the hawkin .54 and the lyman plains .54 rifle. I was thinking that the lyman would be a little more accurate with the longer barel and peep sight options, but is it worth an xtra 100$ ? I was hoping to get a little info from some of u experianced rifle shooters.

[oldmaster111]

I have a Hawken rifle and it is as accurate as I can get it after experimenting with loads,patches,etc. I like the longer barrel rifles looks but love my Hawken.

[mykeal]

What brand is the Hawken?

[Hawg]

I have a Hawken and nothing wrong with it. It shoots as well as I can but I'd love to have a Great Plains. Most run of the mill Hawkens have 1:48 twist which is a fairly happy medium for both conicals and round balls but not the best for either. The GP I know can be had with a 1:66 twist which is great for patched round balls.

[4V50 Gary]

Dude, so long as the bore is good, buy used. You'll save bucks that way. You might even find a used Lyman too.

BTW, the Lyman Great Plains is closer to the Mountain Man rifle than many of the "Hawkins" rifles on the market today.

[Johnywinslow]

I was looking at the cabelas hawkin. vs the lyman GP . I like the brass on the hawkin,( witch i plan on plating to 24k gold) but the long sleek GP rifle is a real looker. can anyone tell me if there are other site options for the hawken like there is for the lyman. To be honest the site upgrades for lyman is a big selling point.

[Hawg]

Places like Track of the Wolf http://www.trackofthewolf.com/(S(te5....aspx?catID=14 and Dixie Gun Works http://www.dixiegun.com/ sell parts but they will have to be fitted. None of the current production Hawkens are anywhere near original looking. Hawkens didn't use brass mountings and the wood was much thinner. Most original Hawkens were .54's. They did make a few 50's but they were uncommon. Calibers ranges from .50 - 58

[oldmaster111]

My Hawken came from Cabelas and has been a good rifle for the last 6 years.
The same company(Investarms) makes barrels for Lyman, Traditons, Etc. I think it's a toss up of which style you like the looks of, and I would be on the lookout for a used one if you live in a larger city with pawn shops and resale gun shops. A lot of good deals have come out of pawn shops and don't be afraid to haggle. That's part of the Mountain Man spirit!

[l.cutler]

If it will make your decision easier go to Mid South Shooters supply and the Great Plains rifle is only about $370.

[Johnywinslow]

Thanks for all the info. Im in N AZ ive been to pawn shops and gunshops, couldnt find any used BP other then inlines . Im going to take a road trip down to phx. look at the new cabelas store. But I was doing some research and came across a remington "ZUAVE" military rifile .58 cal. I was courious if anyone had any experiance with it. and what i found odd was the 60 gr. load. whats with that ? it seems kinda light for such a large round and military at that. its about the same price as the lyman GP rifle.

[bobn]

even a poor hawken style rifle will out shot a good military style rifled musket. fwiw, bobn

[Hawg]

I've shot loads up to 120 grs. out of my .58 Enfield but it's not necessary and will decrease accuracy. My Enfield is accurate to minute of five gallon bucket at 300 yds. with 70 grs. behind an original style minie ball. It will also leave a hole four inches across and nine inches deep in the soft clay of a pond bank at that range

[arcticap]

A .570 caliber ball weighs 270 grains. Because it's heavier it penetrates much deeper without needing to propel it as fast. The .570 balls are also more expensive with there being only 50 to the box instead of 100 like with the .530's, which weigh 223 grains.

[Hawg]

My Minies are 460 gr. and I cast my own.

[4V50 Gary]

A round ball Hawkens will not outshoot a minie rifle - especially at long range. The incident of hits at 500 yards or more with a round ball gun were very few. It became quite easy with the minie ball gun and there's a reason why the armies of the world went to rifle muskets. Go to thehighroad.org and once there, you'll find in the blackpowder forum a thread entitled, "Bedtime Stories or Sharpshooter Tales." It has numerous accounts of long range shooting in the black powder era.

[bobn]

hm long range whitworth rifles, etc are not exactly in the same league as a issue rifled musket. the typical issue rifled musket did not shoot very accurate. they were contructed for conscript troops to load with paper cartridges without cleaning between volleys.
..... now i would admit the bullet had better exterior ballistics but the launcher(rifle) was a pos made in large numbers by firms in england or france.
.....our own sharps or remington creedmores carry forward the long range capabilty of thoose better ballastics, along with more accurate barrels, sights etc...ps i love this board for discussing different opinions, bobn

[Hawg]

There's been several accounts of C.W. soldiers making 500 yd.+ shots with Springfields and Enfields. I have an original Enfield and tho the rifling is well worn it still hits dead on at 200 yds. and groups better than my repro ever thought about doing and I can tear hell out of a five gallon bucket at 300 yds with my repro.

[Steve499]

even a poor hawken style rifle will out shot a good military style rifled musket. fwiw, bobn

Brace yourself, Bob, I'm piling on you too!

I might agree a little more had you said something like, " Generally, a GOOD patched roundball rifle will group better than a rifled musket out to a hundred yards or so"

I've seen some pretty excellent accuracy from the rifled muskets with minie balls and I own one which, loaded with a patched .570 round ball, groups better than it will with minies. Gary's going to disagree with me here about round balls from rifled muskets. I know they weren't designed to shoot round balls but the rifling twist is slow, and I believe that if one were to take 10 rifled muskets and 10 Hawkin style rifles, work up round ball loads for each, you would find there was no practical accuracy difference between them.

Minie balls are sensitive, or at least that's my experience. They are hard to properly cast and require a narrow window of powder charge weight to function as designed. But... when you get it right, as Hawg says, shots are possible at longer ranges with them than with round balls and at those ranges, they become More accurate.

If I had a chance at a Zouave in the hand as opposed to a Lyman great plains rifle in the bush, I'd take that Zouave!

[Hawg]

I wasn't intending to pile on anybody and hope I wasn't taken as such. I was just stating the facts as I see them. However YMMV. I'd go with the Zouave also.

[bobn]

lol, so there you have it johnny! two votes from the military guys and one vote from the head for the hills brigade! hm i respect any and all opinions as long as they are based on personal experiance. bobn

[Steve499]

I may well get a .54 Lyman, Bob. My gun shop has a used one I've had my eye on for a while. Unless Johnny drives to Jefferson City, Missouri and gets it first!