Yet another .44 Mag query: help me avoid a boo-boo (mistake)

Pond, James Pond · May 24, 2013, 09:55 AM

I have been trying to settle on a hottish, but safe .44 Mag woods load. Recent developments made me question my previous recipe, and so I want feedback to avoid a potentially hazardous mistake.

Before I go on, though, a nod and a wink to the mods is in order: strictly speaking this is a follow on from another thread, but the last time I posted there I got no further feedback, and I feel this is important and so I would feel much better if I got some opinions, hence the fresh OP. That said, if you want to merge it back to the original, I have referenced it in a link below.

So here goes: in the linked thread, I asked if my chrono readings for a 4.2" Redhawk were a cause for alarm. Some had said that a significant jump in velocity was a sign of over-pressure. Others said that my FPS values, although high, were within the max readings for that bullet weight, and powder. I have since loaded and shot more charges over the chrono and I want to be sure that I don't blow up anything except the POI on my target!
Other relevant details in this thread.

Summary: PRVI 240gr FMJFN, S&B case, Fiocchi standard primer, VVN110, 1/4 turn crimp.

Chrono'd in cold temperatures (well below freezing):
19.5gr: av 1200 ft/s

20gr: av 1171 ft/s

20.5gr: av 1283ft/s

21gr: One shot not registered. Av:1311.

Chrono'd recently in warm temperatures (about 20 degrees C)
19gr: av 1158 ft/s (hi of 1217, lo of 1065: out of 10 shots about 4 were around 1100+/- FPS, 3 were over 1200, and the rest hovered around 1150, so not very consistent, at all). SD was 57! I didn't delete any shots as there was no discernible pattern. Accuracy so-so.

19.5gr:av 1201 ft/s, (hi of 1266, lo of 1116: out of 10 shots almost all were between 1195 and the HI 1266 value, and overall were more consistent than 19gr.) SD was 43. The LO shot was an out-lier and once deleted gave an AV of 1210FPS, and an SD of 33. Accuracy so-so.

20gr:av 1327 ft/s, one deleted outlier and one split case, SD 11

20.5gr:av 1346 ft/s, SD 11

21gr: too wary to try in warmer weather given the FPS increases for 20 and 20.5gr.

So on the one hand, as with the winter chrono values there is a significant velocity leap between 19.5 and 20gr in warm weather (125 FPS compared to usual increments of about 20-40FPS), with impressive velocities at 20 and 20.5gr. In winter there was another velocity jump, but this time between 19.5gr and 20gr. (110 FPS increase).
On the other hand all the values are below MAX for certain published data for that bullet weight and powder charge in a 6" barrel.

Are those faster charges just in the sweet-spot for burning, or are they getting explosive?

Sorry for the lengthy post, but I don't know what is relevant and what can be left out.

**Unclenick** · May 24, 2013, 12:04 PM

James,

I originally included the pressure caution because I worked this information from QuickLOAD. However, I've looked at Vihtavuori's data and see they go to a maximum of 22.1 grains with their cases and primers, so I removed the caution as I'm not loading that high here.

QuickLOAD thinks your 20.5 grain load would be about right if the cold loads were fired at about -15°C, in which case, at 20°C, you'd be at around 32,600 psi. If that's right, 21 grains would give you close to 35,300 psi, and 1386 fps, which is close to SAAMI maximum (36,000 psi). The CIP psi is higher (40,611 psi after conversion from Pascals) and you are projected to hit that at 21.8 grains in the 20°C environment.

In general, for revolvers, sticky extraction of fired cases is the most reliable pressure sign, and if you get that, back the load down 5% to avoid stressing the steel on a regular basis.

Pond, James Pond · May 24, 2013, 03:42 PM

Thanks for the reassurances.

Quote:

If that's right, 21 grains would give you close to 35,300 psi, and 1386 fps, which is close to SAAMI maximum (36,000 psi).

Almost 1400 FPS from a 4". To my inexperienced eye that seems insanely fast!!
I love .44 Mag!! Sooooo glad I took the Redhawk over the GP100 way back!

Quote:

In general, for revolvers, sticky extraction of fired cases is the most reliable pressure sign, and if you get that, back the load down 5% to avoid stressing the steel on a regular basis.

I don't think this qualifies as sticky extraction, but perhaps you can say otherwise. Once I've fired 6 shots and open up the cylinder, I use the ejector rod.

Typically, I feel little resistance, but I can still feel a degree of metal on metal. Basically, the cases don't feel like they'd fall out by themselves if I tipped the gun up, but nor is the ejector rod any stiffer to press than normal.

Is that sticky extraction?

Newton24b · May 25, 2013, 02:01 AM

i believe the classic definition of sticky cases is "wow, i need a hammer and a screw driver to pop them out"

your below published load date for the bullet, powder, case, and primer your using. as long as your using the same col as the manual is, dont worry. most of the time the companies use very long barrels for their testing.

example, hodgon uses a 10 inch barrel for their 357 load data in their yearly magazine edition.

May 24, 2013, 09:55 AM	#1
Pond, James Pond Senior Member Join Date: July 12, 2011 Location: Top of the Baltic stack Posts: 6,079	Yet another .44 Mag query: help me avoid a boo-boo (mistake) I have been trying to settle on a hottish, but safe .44 Mag woods load. Recent developments made me question my previous recipe, and so I want feedback to avoid a potentially hazardous mistake. Before I go on, though, a nod and a wink to the mods is in order: strictly speaking this is a follow on from another thread, but the last time I posted there I got no further feedback, and I feel this is important and so I would feel much better if I got some opinions, hence the fresh OP. That said, if you want to merge it back to the original, I have referenced it in a link below. So here goes: in the linked thread, I asked if my chrono readings for a 4.2" Redhawk were a cause for alarm. Some had said that a significant jump in velocity was a sign of over-pressure. Others said that my FPS values, although high, were within the max readings for that bullet weight, and powder. I have since loaded and shot more charges over the chrono and I want to be sure that I don't blow up anything except the POI on my target! Other relevant details in this thread. Summary: PRVI 240gr FMJFN, S&B case, Fiocchi standard primer, VVN110, 1/4 turn crimp. Chrono'd in cold temperatures (well below freezing): 19.5gr: av 1200 ft/s 20gr: av 1171 ft/s 20.5gr: av 1283ft/s 21gr: One shot not registered. Av:1311. Chrono'd recently in warm temperatures (about 20 degrees C) 19gr: av 1158 ft/s (hi of 1217, lo of 1065: out of 10 shots about 4 were around 1100+/- FPS, 3 were over 1200, and the rest hovered around 1150, so not very consistent, at all). SD was 57! I didn't delete any shots as there was no discernible pattern. Accuracy so-so. 19.5gr:av 1201 ft/s, (hi of 1266, lo of 1116: out of 10 shots almost all were between 1195 and the HI 1266 value, and overall were more consistent than 19gr.) SD was 43. The LO shot was an out-lier and once deleted gave an AV of 1210FPS, and an SD of 33. Accuracy so-so. 20gr:av 1327 ft/s, one deleted outlier and one split case, SD 11 20.5gr:av 1346 ft/s, SD 11 21gr: too wary to try in warmer weather given the FPS increases for 20 and 20.5gr. So on the one hand, as with the winter chrono values there is a significant velocity leap between 19.5 and 20gr in warm weather (125 FPS compared to usual increments of about 20-40FPS), with impressive velocities at 20 and 20.5gr. In winter there was another velocity jump, but this time between 19.5gr and 20gr. (110 FPS increase). On the other hand all the values are below MAX for certain published data for that bullet weight and powder charge in a 6" barrel. Are those faster charges just in the sweet-spot for burning, or are they getting explosive? Sorry for the lengthy post, but I don't know what is relevant and what can be left out. __________________ When the right to effective self-defence is denied, that right to self-defence which remains is essentially symbolic. Freedom: Please enjoy responsibly.

May 24, 2013, 12:04 PM	#2
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,060	James, I originally included the pressure caution because I worked this information from QuickLOAD. However, I've looked at Vihtavuori's data and see they go to a maximum of 22.1 grains with their cases and primers, so I removed the caution as I'm not loading that high here. QuickLOAD thinks your 20.5 grain load would be about right if the cold loads were fired at about -15°C, in which case, at 20°C, you'd be at around 32,600 psi. If that's right, 21 grains would give you close to 35,300 psi, and 1386 fps, which is close to SAAMI maximum (36,000 psi). The CIP psi is higher (40,611 psi after conversion from Pascals) and you are projected to hit that at 21.8 grains in the 20°C environment. In general, for revolvers, sticky extraction of fired cases is the most reliable pressure sign, and if you get that, back the load down 5% to avoid stressing the steel on a regular basis. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle Last edited by Unclenick; May 24, 2013 at 12:09 PM. Reason: Removed unecessary caution.

May 25, 2013, 02:01 AM	#4
Newton24b Junior member Join Date: February 10, 2009 Posts: 974	i believe the classic definition of sticky cases is "wow, i need a hammer and a screw driver to pop them out" your below published load date for the bullet, powder, case, and primer your using. as long as your using the same col as the manual is, dont worry. most of the time the companies use very long barrels for their testing. example, hodgon uses a 10 inch barrel for their 357 load data in their yearly magazine edition.