|
Forum Rules | Firearms Safety | Firearms Photos | Links | Library | Lost Password | Email Changes |
Register | FAQ | Calendar | Today's Posts | Search |
|
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
August 4, 2011, 12:27 PM | #1 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: August 16, 2007
Posts: 2,153
|
Less recognized aspect of societal damage from gun control
What started out as an OT comment on another forum might make for an interesting topic of it's own:
Quote:
Last edited by maestro pistolero; August 4, 2011 at 01:00 PM. |
|
August 4, 2011, 03:03 PM | #2 |
Junior member
Join Date: March 25, 2011
Posts: 463
|
This would not be a problem if military service was compulsory where everyone trained on firearms. State and local governments and their respective agencies which opposing guns would be forced to stand down or be replaced with friendlies.
|
August 4, 2011, 03:32 PM | #3 |
Senior Member
Join Date: July 29, 2010
Location: The ATL (OTP)
Posts: 3,946
|
With freedom comes responsibilities and I fear more and more Americans are more than willing to give up freedom to avoid the responsibilities it brings.
__________________
A major source of objection to a free economy is precisely that it ... gives people what they want instead of what a particular group thinks they ought to want. Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. - Milton Friedman |
August 4, 2011, 03:37 PM | #4 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 29, 2007
Location: Everett, WA
Posts: 6,126
|
Quote:
Pick an event and then pick your signs of failure. The foundation of the Federal Reserve is a popular one and so is the killing of the 2nd Bank of America. It's a bit more difficult to pick those signs of our sliding into heck in a hand basket. But just a bit. Loose social mores is popular, crime relative to some ideal is another. The key to all of them is some ideal that the writer holds up for his audience. "Remember when we were all god fearing patriotic Americans, respectful of the rights of others and observant of our civic duties"? In this instance I'd like to point out that in many states there have been reductions in gun control. Would the writer care to illustrate the surge in respect for authority in those states? |
|
August 4, 2011, 03:41 PM | #5 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: August 16, 2007
Posts: 2,153
|
Quote:
|
|
August 4, 2011, 06:25 PM | #6 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 29, 2007
Location: Everett, WA
Posts: 6,126
|
Quote:
How about in those areas where there never were onerous gun laws, such as Alaska or Vermont? Are those places noticeably more trusting of government? Personally I do think America has descended into a morass. I just don't think there is one cause and I don't believe gun laws is one of the several causes. |
|
August 4, 2011, 06:57 PM | #7 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: August 16, 2007
Posts: 2,153
|
Quote:
As a result, all that some segments of the population know about guns are that they are the tools of criminals, and they don't get to see what responsible keeping and bearing looks like. That part of their upbringing is missing. In other words, being taught and cultured in the responsible bearing of arms brings with it rich lessons that is part of what is denied to society when the right is infringed. You are reframing it in terms of respect for authority and that was never my point. Last edited by maestro pistolero; August 4, 2011 at 09:23 PM. |
|
August 4, 2011, 08:42 PM | #8 | |
Member in memoriam
Join Date: April 26, 2002
Location: Colorado
Posts: 1,649
|
Quote:
__________________
No tyrant should ever be allowed to die of natural causes. |
|
August 4, 2011, 10:09 PM | #9 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 4, 2009
Location: Frozen Tundra
Posts: 2,414
|
Quote:
Its a sad state of affairs...
__________________
Molon Labe |
|
August 4, 2011, 10:41 PM | #10 |
Junior member
Join Date: November 12, 2000
Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado
Posts: 9,494
|
Well, the television show COPS makes it very plain that our nations Law Enforcement industry leans heavily on scare tactics and has zero respect for the citizenry.
|
August 4, 2011, 11:30 PM | #11 |
Senior Member
Join Date: June 21, 2011
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 117
|
The government is not to blame. The only powers the government has are those powers given to it by the people, or in the Feds case, the States via the people through their elected officials, or through complacency via inaction and silence.
We the people don't seem to have a problem giving up our freedoms for a little bit of comfort and or a feeling of security. Most of this countries issues cannot be traced to one source, however, the public education in this country over the last 40 years, along with the liberal takeover of higher education, has born some horrendously rotten fruit. Couple that with the epidemic of narcissism in this country and we have a bunch of morons who could care less about freedom and more about what they can get for free. A stupid and dumb population are easily controlled and manipulated. This is the place we find ourselves, those of us who are aware enough, and it is a sad thing that we have lost so much of our culture to progressivism. But, the battles that have been won on behalf of the 2nd Amendment give me hope that some of it can be turned around. In words of the great Buz Lightyear, "Never give up, never surrender." I have toddlers. Give me a break. |
August 5, 2011, 12:06 AM | #12 | |||||
Senior Member
Join Date: November 29, 2007
Location: Everett, WA
Posts: 6,126
|
Quote:
I am trying to get you to frame your argument. Implicit in your first graph is a loss of trust. Quote:
You repeat the theme here. Quote:
One of the foundations of a trusting relationship is that it is reciprocal. That's why I used the phrase citizen's loss of trust in government. So you leave me with two choices, either the citizens of America are untrustworthy or the citizens have lost faith in government. I believe the former is simply wrong and the latter is self evident. Quote:
Quote:
Were they and was their sacrifice somehow less than those raised with guns? How many times do we have to hear about the good Samaritan before we realize that people outside our tribe can also be amongst the just? Chicago was a pretty nasty place starting before the last century. Back when there were no gun control laws. Sinclair Lewis among others documented a society that had little that was sacred, trustworthy, honorable, or responsible. They knew the fragility of life largely because it was so cheap. Fast forward a few years and Chicago is ruled by America's most infamous mobster. Citizens were free to buy civilian versions of the BAR or Thompson. Sacred trust, responsibility, etc are in little evidence. Compared to those times modern Chicago is a shining city on a hill. So in short gun ownership and gun rights, good. Gun control as a root of other societal problems, not so much. |
|||||
August 5, 2011, 03:32 AM | #13 | |||||||||||
Senior Member
Join Date: August 16, 2007
Posts: 2,153
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
First, most states do not infringe on the right to a degree that demonstrates a fundamental mistrust of the populace. So we aren't talking about the 'citizens of America' en total. Second, I never said the citizens of America have lost faith in Government, although if true, it would be hard to blame them. On the contrary, approximately half of the country generally believes government to be the solution to most societal shortcomings. But that view is either evidence of, or reinforces the belief that folks really can't be trusted by the government to handle even the most basic duty of keeping their family safe from harm, which necessarily includes the exercise of the 2A rights. Quote:
Sacred trust, because I believe innocent life is sacred (feel free to disagree). We trust each other not to misuse the right. Honor, because being trustworthy with lethal force is honorable. When a parent teaches a child to shoot it inevitably communicates a sense of worthiness, and trust between the parent and the child. The fragility of life, because learning muzzle and trigger control inevitably calls to mind to the preciousness and vulnerability of human beings. The responsibility that comes with gun-culture socialization. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Last edited by maestro pistolero; August 5, 2011 at 03:38 AM. |
|||||||||||
August 5, 2011, 09:30 AM | #14 |
Senior Member
Join Date: April 14, 2009
Location: Sunny Southern Idaho
Posts: 1,909
|
Academically speaking, I also don't believe that gun control, in and of itself, is a root cause for whatever disintegration of our society may be taking place. Perhaps, in the quest to find a simple, yet pithy, homily to describe what's happening, this will do:
"Familiarity breeds contempt." The corollary to that is probably something along the lines of "use it or lose it." If you don't exercise your freedoms, it becomes pretty easy to tolerate losing them. It happens all the time with First Amendment rights, but there are plenty of First Amendment organizations who fight against those who would take those rights and try to educate those who are apathetic about them (the contemptuous ones). Of course, you don't hear them called "free speech nuts" and I think that's because nobody can be killed with words (I say that cynically, of course.) Defenders of the Second Amendment are gun nuts, of course, because too many people have elected to ignore their Second Amendment right, so it's easy to sit idly by and watch it taken away. It's not an inconvenience to them, so it's not worth defending. The Fourth Amendment is perilously close to gaining Second Amendment status in that regard - "Why should you object to me searching you if you haven't done anything wrong?" You're not "soft on crime" if you defend that right, but it's getting to be a tough sell. I don't have children, so I don't know what's being taught in schools about the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. I know that my niece and nephews don't seem to have a very good grasp of either, so that makes me assume that they're typical of what both school and parents are teaching these days.
__________________
Well we don't rent pigs and I figure it's better to say it right out front because a man that does like to rent pigs is... he's hard to stop - Gus McCrae |
August 5, 2011, 10:51 AM | #15 |
Senior Member
Join Date: September 26, 2005
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 6,141
|
I'm not sure which liberties we aren't trusted with that is referred to in the first post. In any event, there isn't much trust anymore, apparently, one way or the other. Or is this another thread about how someone doesn't like government, meaning the government that got elected. I suppose that means you have a problem with elections, provided your candidate wasn't elected. Too bad the loser didn't have a brother who was a governor somewhere.
Or is it another thread about how all values, rights and priveliges hang on just part of one admendment to the constitution? Remember, it was written to provide, in a way, for the militia, because the didn't trust standing armies back then. But the little problem is that the milita is an arm of the government. Can't have it both ways. Maybe another problem is that our memory isn't long enough. I don't remember when we were all god fearing patriotic American,s respectful of the rights of others and observant of our civic duties. To some, god fearing only counts if you belong to the same church or denomination. Other religions are, apparently, godless, just like communism, socialism, social-democrats, whigs, tories, and I don't know wht all. Some people, I seem to recall, basically had no rights at all.
__________________
Shoot low, sheriff. They're riding Shetlands! Underneath the starry flag, civilize 'em with a Krag, and return us to our own beloved homes! Buy War Bonds. |
August 5, 2011, 11:23 AM | #16 | |||
Senior Member
Join Date: August 16, 2007
Posts: 2,153
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Last edited by maestro pistolero; August 5, 2011 at 02:47 PM. |
|||
|
|