Double powder load

clinttbrooks · September 19, 2012, 11:31 AM

A friend loaded 1,000 shells for our upcoming dove hunting trip. He said he realized he "double powder" loaded two of the shells and was unable to find them.

I have two questions...1, is there any way to find these shells?

2, I'm shooting a 20 guage Remington pump 870, should I shoot these reloads if we can't find the double powder loaded ones?

Brian Pfleuger · September 19, 2012, 11:40 AM

1)No.

2)Hell no

3)Should I ever use this fellows reloads ever again? No.

How could he POSSIBLY know that he overcharged two, and only two, but not WHICH two? That makes no sense at all.

William T. Watts · September 19, 2012, 11:50 AM

I'd spring for factory shells, never never never take a chance where safety/damage may occur. Never trust your (friend) again when it involves ammunition, that's downright scary! William

NWPilgrim · September 19, 2012, 11:59 AM

If it were my reloads I would disassemble all 1,000. Recover what I can and figure out how to absolutely prevent that mistake in the future.

If I made a mistake on "two" that I realized later, then I could have made other mistakes and not realized them. Under no conditions should anyone shoot any of those shells.

Cannot imagine how he realized the mistake after the fact and that it was exactly two. At least he notified you.

**Mike Irwin** · September 19, 2012, 12:03 PM

Well, how did he determine that he dropped two powder charges in only two of those?

I've reloaded some shotgun over the years, about 20,000 rounds or so (but, almost all the exact same target load), and what strikes me is that in most modern loads using today's wads, if you double up on the powder charge I would think it would throw your ability to crimp the shell properly off quite a bit.

You might not even be able to get the crimp set because of the additional height of the powder makes the shot column go above the crimp line.

IF, however, he did overcharge one AND it took a normal crimp, there really wouldn't be any way of telling for sure...

Until the barrel on your shotgun blows wide open...

tkglazie · September 19, 2012, 12:09 PM

Quote:

in most modern loads using today's wads, if you double up on the powder charge I would think it would throw your ability to crimp the shell properly off quite a bit.

You might not even be able to get the crimp set because of the additional height of the powder makes the shot column go above the crimp line.

thats the same thought I had. I can see double or triple charging a .38 target load, but a shotgun shell is full when you crimp it.

Brian Pfleuger · September 19, 2012, 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Irwin

... if you double up on the powder charge I would think it would throw your ability to crimp the shell properly off quite a bit.

You might not even be able to get the crimp set because of the additional height of the powder makes the shot column go above the crimp line.

I was curious about that too but wasn't sure, having never loaded shotgun.

sgms · September 19, 2012, 12:58 PM

As for me I would break them all down. But if you really have to look for them try putting each round a a good digital scale set to grams and see if you can find the heavy ones. It will be a small difference 1 gram = 15.43 grains. Like I said I wouldn't shoot them.

clinttbrooks · September 19, 2012, 01:04 PM

Thanks for all the responses. I don't know much about reloading, but I know he uses one of the expensive reloaders that works like an assembly line, and has several hoppers holding all of your bulk supplies.

He noticed the double powder right after it happened, but the loader was dropping all of the shells into a bucket below. I'm not sure why he just didn't rake off the top layer of shells.

I think I'll take all of your recommendations and shoot some Remington ShurShots.

-Clint

mrawesome22 · September 19, 2012, 02:16 PM

^^^ Good idea.

sudo passwd root

dwhite · September 19, 2012, 02:53 PM

A farmer got tired of kids stealing his watermelons from his field so he put up a sign saying "One of these melons has been injected with cyanide. Eat at your own risk".

This worked for a few nights until one morning he found written on the sign
"Now there are TWO!".

All the Best,
D. White

wncchester · September 19, 2012, 03:16 PM

Anyone who has loaded shot shells knows it would be difficult if not impossible to double charge a shell and close it but the hazard of a double charged load is too serious to take a chance that he made a mistake about making a mistake. Buy new ammo!

If HE shoots all of them without something suddenly coming from together, fine. If not, it was his own doing so don't let him sue the loading press maker to get paid for his missing fingers and eyes.

Lost Sheep · September 19, 2012, 03:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by post #2

1)No.

2)Hell no

3)Should I ever use this fellows reloads ever again? No.

Where there's a will, there's a way.
Either an x-ray machine or, more likely, a flouroscope can show the powder charge.

Have you got friends in TSA? Medical office? Industrial Quality Control laboratory?

So, my answers are

1) probably possible but not likely
2) hell no
3) what do you mean "again"?

Lost Sheep

sidewindr · September 19, 2012, 04:09 PM

Depending on how much weight variances shotgun shell normally have, it may be possibly to weigh them all and find the ones that are the charge weight higher than the rest.

Strafer Gott · September 19, 2012, 04:22 PM

Not a threadjack, but what's the moral of this story?

YARDDOG(1) · September 19, 2012, 04:22 PM

Hope he was using Uniqe

Y/D

Edward429451 · September 19, 2012, 04:40 PM

I used 19.0 grains of Unique with 1-1/8 oz loads. An extra 19.0 grains of Unique would be enough to at least make the crimp bulge. How much did he use for a Dove load? I'd look for the bad crimps and tear them apart with a scale handy. Does he have an extra shotgun you could use that weekend?

BigJimP · September 19, 2012, 05:28 PM

No - you can't tell which ones are bad....

No - don't fire any of those shells....

Quit using this guy .......
-------------
yes, it is possible to double charge a 12ga shell with powder - and not see any physical change in the shell..not even bulging of the case.

A buddy and I did it purely as a test - to evaluate our risk/and to settle the discussion that it couldn't be done.... We were both able to double charge a 12ga Rem STS hull - using a 1oz and a 1 1/8 oz charge of shot ...and Hodgdon Clays powder.

my buddy uses a hydraulic - Spolar Gold loader / and I use a MEC 9000 HN hydraulic loader....neither loader whimpered when we did it ...none of the shells showed any deviation in the crimps ..or deforming of the hulls.

Maybe the hydraulics helped the powder compact under the wad ...not sure.
--------------
This also should not happen ! Both of our loaders auto index hulls as they go thru 6 stations...powder is dropped in #2 / then wad and shot in #3 ..and then the crimp is done in 3 stations ( 4, 5 and 6 ) at least on the MEC 9000 HN.

Any loader - when this happens / the shell can be removed as you see it for some reason ...you don't have to complete the shell. It would probably have to be human error that caused it / to put a shell with powder in it ...back into station 2 - and have a 2nd drop of powder go into the hull. The loader could jam - maybe - and a double charge might result...but any guy with experience, would have stopped it ...checked everything before he started it up again.

Just no reason for it ...and my 9000 HN produces close to 15 boxes and hour...without me breaking a sweat.../ and I reload 10,000 shells a yr easily --- when I was competing more, I loaded 30,000 or more shells a yr easily ....all for my own use - and my kids and grandkids.../ I'd never sell reloads..../ but some reloader saying - he just didn't get it stopped in time - and they dropped into the bucket...is a very poor practictioner - in my opinion.

I've been reloading for over 50 yrs ...started when I was about 10 - with both metallic and shotshells...on single stage loaders with my grandpa...and today in shotshells alone, I load 12ga, 20ga, 28ga and .410 ...and about 7 calibers for handguns in metallic ...

Double charging a hull ...would be easy to do in a single stage operation / not that easy to do in a typical auto indexing progressive machine ( if the press was clean, properly lubed, and the operator knew what he or she was doing and paying attention to what they were doing ) ! and in 50+ yrs I've never done it ...other than for this test....

running out of powder in the hopper on the press....and ending up with bloopers...is a common idiot mistake .....( and its dangerous as well ...) but not as bad as a double charge...

357gp · September 19, 2012, 08:27 PM

I wouldn't even want to be next to him when he fires those shells.

SHR970 · September 19, 2012, 08:51 PM

To repeat
1) No
2) Hell no
3) And NEVER trust this guy with your gun and body parts.

If he knows he has two double charged shells in the stack, what about the two shells that have no powder that he forgot about?

Fire a blooper, forget to clear the wad from the barrel followed by a regular shell = bad news...wrecked gun, probable body damage.

Fire a blooper, forget to clear the wad from the barrel followed by double charge = REALLY BAD NEWS.....wrecked gun and very likely severe body damage (as in missing parts).

September 19, 2012, 11:31 AM	#1
clinttbrooks Junior Member Join Date: September 19, 2012 Posts: 2	Double powder load A friend loaded 1,000 shells for our upcoming dove hunting trip. He said he realized he "double powder" loaded two of the shells and was unable to find them. I have two questions...1, is there any way to find these shells? 2, I'm shooting a 20 guage Remington pump 870, should I shoot these reloads if we can't find the double powder loaded ones? Last edited by clinttbrooks; September 19, 2012 at 11:38 AM.

September 19, 2012, 11:59 AM	#4
NWPilgrim Senior Member Join Date: September 29, 2008 Location: Oregon Posts: 2,346	If it were my reloads I would disassemble all 1,000. Recover what I can and figure out how to absolutely prevent that mistake in the future. If I made a mistake on "two" that I realized later, then I could have made other mistakes and not realized them. Under no conditions should anyone shoot any of those shells. Cannot imagine how he realized the mistake after the fact and that it was exactly two. At least he notified you. __________________ "The ultimate authority ... resides in the people alone. ... The advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation ... forms a barrier against the enterprises of ambition." - James Madison

September 19, 2012, 12:03 PM	#5
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,381	Well, how did he determine that he dropped two powder charges in only two of those? I've reloaded some shotgun over the years, about 20,000 rounds or so (but, almost all the exact same target load), and what strikes me is that in most modern loads using today's wads, if you double up on the powder charge I would think it would throw your ability to crimp the shell properly off quite a bit. You might not even be able to get the crimp set because of the additional height of the powder makes the shot column go above the crimp line. IF, however, he did overcharge one AND it took a normal crimp, there really wouldn't be any way of telling for sure... Until the barrel on your shotgun blows wide open... __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

September 19, 2012, 04:22 PM	#15
Strafer Gott Senior Member Join Date: May 12, 2011 Location: New Mexico Posts: 1,315	Musta been a lahahalarge bucket! Not a threadjack, but what's the moral of this story?

September 19, 2012, 04:22 PM	#16
YARDDOG(1) Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: GATOR COUNTRY HA HA HA! Posts: 721	Hope he was using Uniqe Y/D __________________ There's a GATOR in the bushes & She's Callin my name >Molly Hatchett<

September 19, 2012, 11:40 AM	#2
Brian Pfleuger Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Austin, CO Posts: 19,578	1)No. 2)Hell no 3)Should I ever use this fellows reloads ever again? No. How could he POSSIBLY know that he overcharged two, and only two, but not WHICH two? That makes no sense at all. __________________ Nobody plans to screw up their lives... ...they just don't plan not to. -Andy Stanley

September 19, 2012, 11:50 AM	#3
William T. Watts Senior Member Join Date: January 20, 2010 Location: Central Arkansas Posts: 1,074	I'd spring for factory shells, never never never take a chance where safety/damage may occur. Never trust your (friend) again when it involves ammunition, that's downright scary! William

September 19, 2012, 12:58 PM	#8
sgms Senior Member Join Date: May 30, 2010 Location: Arizona or Ohio depending Posts: 1,021	As for me I would break them all down. But if you really have to look for them try putting each round a a good digital scale set to grams and see if you can find the heavy ones. It will be a small difference 1 gram = 15.43 grains. Like I said I wouldn't shoot them.

September 19, 2012, 01:04 PM	#9
clinttbrooks Junior Member Join Date: September 19, 2012 Posts: 2	Thanks for all the responses. I don't know much about reloading, but I know he uses one of the expensive reloaders that works like an assembly line, and has several hoppers holding all of your bulk supplies. He noticed the double powder right after it happened, but the loader was dropping all of the shells into a bucket below. I'm not sure why he just didn't rake off the top layer of shells. I think I'll take all of your recommendations and shoot some Remington ShurShots. -Clint

September 19, 2012, 02:16 PM	#10
mrawesome22 Senior Member Join Date: November 9, 2005 Location: Ohio, Appalachia's foothills. Posts: 3,779	^^^ Good idea. sudo passwd root

September 19, 2012, 02:53 PM	#11
dwhite Senior Member Join Date: September 2, 2007 Location: Wake County, N. Carolina Posts: 379	A farmer got tired of kids stealing his watermelons from his field so he put up a sign saying "One of these melons has been injected with cyanide. Eat at your own risk". This worked for a few nights until one morning he found written on the sign "Now there are TWO!". All the Best, D. White

September 19, 2012, 03:16 PM	#12
wncchester Senior Member Join Date: December 1, 2002 Posts: 2,832	Anyone who has loaded shot shells knows it would be difficult if not impossible to double charge a shell and close it but the hazard of a double charged load is too serious to take a chance that he made a mistake about making a mistake. Buy new ammo! If HE shoots all of them without something suddenly coming from together, fine. If not, it was his own doing so don't let him sue the loading press maker to get paid for his missing fingers and eyes.

September 19, 2012, 04:09 PM	#14
sidewindr Senior Member Join Date: June 4, 2011 Location: somewhere out there Posts: 101	Depending on how much weight variances shotgun shell normally have, it may be possibly to weigh them all and find the ones that are the charge weight higher than the rest.

September 19, 2012, 04:40 PM	#17
Edward429451 Junior member Join Date: November 12, 2000 Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado Posts: 9,494	I used 19.0 grains of Unique with 1-1/8 oz loads. An extra 19.0 grains of Unique would be enough to at least make the crimp bulge. How much did he use for a Dove load? I'd look for the bad crimps and tear them apart with a scale handy. Does he have an extra shotgun you could use that weekend?

September 19, 2012, 05:28 PM	#18
BigJimP Senior Member Join Date: February 23, 2005 Posts: 13,195	No - you can't tell which ones are bad.... No - don't fire any of those shells.... Quit using this guy ....... ------------- yes, it is possible to double charge a 12ga shell with powder - and not see any physical change in the shell..not even bulging of the case. A buddy and I did it purely as a test - to evaluate our risk/and to settle the discussion that it couldn't be done.... We were both able to double charge a 12ga Rem STS hull - using a 1oz and a 1 1/8 oz charge of shot ...and Hodgdon Clays powder. my buddy uses a hydraulic - Spolar Gold loader / and I use a MEC 9000 HN hydraulic loader....neither loader whimpered when we did it ...none of the shells showed any deviation in the crimps ..or deforming of the hulls. Maybe the hydraulics helped the powder compact under the wad ...not sure. -------------- This also should not happen ! Both of our loaders auto index hulls as they go thru 6 stations...powder is dropped in #2 / then wad and shot in #3 ..and then the crimp is done in 3 stations ( 4, 5 and 6 ) at least on the MEC 9000 HN. Any loader - when this happens / the shell can be removed as you see it for some reason ...you don't have to complete the shell. It would probably have to be human error that caused it / to put a shell with powder in it ...back into station 2 - and have a 2nd drop of powder go into the hull. The loader could jam - maybe - and a double charge might result...but any guy with experience, would have stopped it ...checked everything before he started it up again. Just no reason for it ...and my 9000 HN produces close to 15 boxes and hour...without me breaking a sweat.../ and I reload 10,000 shells a yr easily --- when I was competing more, I loaded 30,000 or more shells a yr easily ....all for my own use - and my kids and grandkids.../ I'd never sell reloads..../ but some reloader saying - he just didn't get it stopped in time - and they dropped into the bucket...is a very poor practictioner - in my opinion. I've been reloading for over 50 yrs ...started when I was about 10 - with both metallic and shotshells...on single stage loaders with my grandpa...and today in shotshells alone, I load 12ga, 20ga, 28ga and .410 ...and about 7 calibers for handguns in metallic ... Double charging a hull ...would be easy to do in a single stage operation / not that easy to do in a typical auto indexing progressive machine ( if the press was clean, properly lubed, and the operator knew what he or she was doing and paying attention to what they were doing ) ! and in 50+ yrs I've never done it ...other than for this test.... running out of powder in the hopper on the press....and ending up with bloopers...is a common idiot mistake .....( and its dangerous as well ...) but not as bad as a double charge... Last edited by BigJimP; September 19, 2012 at 05:40 PM.

September 19, 2012, 08:27 PM	#19
357gp Member Join Date: April 22, 2011 Location: Long Island Posts: 20	I wouldn't even want to be next to him when he fires those shells.

September 19, 2012, 08:51 PM	#20
SHR970 Senior Member Join Date: January 24, 2011 Posts: 1,427	To repeat 1) No 2) Hell no 3) And NEVER trust this guy with your gun and body parts. If he knows he has two double charged shells in the stack, what about the two shells that have no powder that he forgot about? Fire a blooper, forget to clear the wad from the barrel followed by a regular shell = bad news...wrecked gun, probable body damage. Fire a blooper, forget to clear the wad from the barrel followed by double charge = REALLY BAD NEWS.....wrecked gun and very likely severe body damage (as in missing parts).