Misfires

Doodlebugger45 · August 10, 2009, 10:41 PM

I just got back from a shooting session with my 7 mm mag. I shot 20 rounds of the same ammo and got 3 misfires. All were identical loads. All brand new Winchester brass. All using 62.0 gr of H4831. All shooting 139 gr Hornady SP.

All of them using CCI LRM primers. All seated using a RCBS hand primer. They all felt the same when loading to me. After loading, I even ran my finger across all the rounds to assure they felt uniform. After shooting, the 3 that misfired had a very very strong indent on the primer. Actually the indent looked deeper than the fired rounds, I guess because the charge didn't go off and slightly flatten the head and primer. One of them I tried to fire again, but it did no good.

I have fired some other 7 mm mags that I've reloaded with only one exception before these. I had used Wolf primers before but now I'm using the CCI primers just to see what difference there was. Yeah, actually, the loads tonight with the CCI primers were ever so slightly better. Not enough to get excited about, but the main thing is I have never ever had any misfires in any rifle or pistol cartridges I have reloaded. I double checked to see if I could see or feel any difference between these 3 rounds compared to unfired rounds. I could not tell any difference at all.

Like I said, all 3 of these rounds had very strong deep indents on the primers.

BTW, I'm shooting them out of a Browning BLR.

Is it the primers or is it me?

Shoney · August 11, 2009, 02:11 PM

There are a couple of things that come to mind.

The primer was seated too deeply crushing the anvill.

or

I would hazard the guess that it is the primer, if it didn't fire on the second firing, the seating being proper.

The best thing is to call 1-866-286-7436 or use our Ask CCI on-line form.
http://www.cci-ammunition.com/default.aspx

Doodlebugger45 · August 11, 2009, 02:24 PM

Thanks.

I have double checked the 3 misfire rounds as well as all the other remaining unfired rounds. All of them are seated just barely below flush with the case. Maybe a couple thousandths or so below the case.

I left a message on their help line in the hopes that they call me back. I want to know if they have any ideas about something that maybe I did wrong. If not, I'm thinking they might want to know about the problem. I can't see any numbering on the box that would tell me the lot number, but they still might have some ideas.

In the meantime, I think I'll go back to the Wolf primers that I have.

glicerin · August 11, 2009, 10:36 PM

Were your cases perfectly dry, no liquid cleaners remaining, no oil on your fingers, no media left in flash hole? Very few primers ever misfire. Good luck

Shoney · August 11, 2009, 10:50 PM

glicerin

The primer manufacturers have a coating on their primers that is impervious to oils and moisture for a fairly long time. The coating also resists solvents in small quantities for short durations.

There have been many members of this forum, including myself, that have tested the validity of your concers, and found them to be false when using modern primers.

Longdayjake · August 12, 2009, 12:01 AM

My guess is that they were just bad primers. The only other thing I have seen do this is a weak firing pin spring. The only time I have seen that is from old wwII guns and/or rusted springs.

SL1 · August 12, 2009, 07:00 AM

Occassionally when seating primers, I have noticed one with a missing anvil. I have never loaded one with a missing anvil, so I am just assuming that it would not fire. So, first question is whether you observeed anvils in all of your rounds as you seated primers.

Another suggestion is to pull the bullets from the 3 misfires and see what has transpired inside the case. Is the powder still new-looking, or are there indications that it has been exposed to some weak flame? Coating loss or granules stuck together mght indicate a primer that fired extremely weakly.

Finally, I would CAREFULLY decap the misfires and see if there is an anvil in each.

SL1

abber · August 12, 2009, 08:53 AM

I have never had a primer failure, but that is what it sounds like. Not enough variables to call it anything else, IMHO.

Dannyl · August 12, 2009, 10:32 AM

Hi,
Apart from the possibility that the flash-hole could have been blocked by tumbler media, it is very likely a bad batch of primers.

From what you tell me I do not believe that you have seated them too deep.

For what it's worth I have been using CCI primers for my rifle since I bought it in 96, they have always performed very well, so I am not sure that you need to get rid of them so soon.

Perhaps it is worth you while speaking to the factory and maybe sending them some, could be that they will replace them for you?

Brgds,
Danny

**Unclenick** · August 12, 2009, 10:54 AM

Doodlebugger45 and Dannyl,

Read this thread. Click on Hardcase's link to the ST article on primers. In that article pay particular attention to primer seating depth and bridge thickness. Interesting how critical seating depth is.

GeauxTide · August 12, 2009, 11:31 AM

I, too, have loaded with CCI primers for 40 years and have experienced only 3 misfires.

Doodlebugger45 · August 12, 2009, 11:39 AM

The CCI factory rep called me back. He seems to think it's a case of not seating the primers deep enough. They are just barely below flush right now. But he said for some reason, even though they "feel" right, they might not be absolutely seated as far as possible. He said it was more common for that to happen in brand new brass as opposed to used brass. He suggested that I really "lean" on the primers when seating them with the hand primer tool.

He told me a couple interesting things. He said that all their primers are triple-checked by human eyes after they make them. And according to him, the actual figures as far as having a "bad" primer is 1 in 3 million.

All in all, it was a pleasant conversation, and the gist of it was "whatever it is, it's something that YOU did, not CCI". LOL

I guess I'll try a few more and see what happens. This time I'll try some once-fired brass.

**Unclenick** · August 12, 2009, 11:47 AM

Doodlebugger45,

Another thought: have you done any case prep work on these cases? I find that if I run a depth uniforming cutter followed by the Wilson primer pocket profile cutter for their case trimmer, primers slide in and find bottom much more easily. Even running commercial brass through my Dillon swager helps with primer pocket tightness.

Per the other thread I referenced in my last post, I find CCI primers harder to seat than most others, and needing all the help they can get, primer pocket-wise.

SL1 · August 12, 2009, 11:52 AM

makes me doubt the theory that the primers were just not seated deeply enough. Especially in a rifle. And, with a big dent in the primer.

But, you can try then with second, third and fourth strikes and be sure. There is just a small amout of movement possible to cushion the firing pin strike, so they have to bottom-out and fire eventually if that is the only problem.

SL1

August 10, 2009, 10:41 PM	#1
Doodlebugger45 Senior Member Join Date: April 15, 2009 Location: Wyoming Posts: 1,717	Misfires I just got back from a shooting session with my 7 mm mag. I shot 20 rounds of the same ammo and got 3 misfires. All were identical loads. All brand new Winchester brass. All using 62.0 gr of H4831. All shooting 139 gr Hornady SP. All of them using CCI LRM primers. All seated using a RCBS hand primer. They all felt the same when loading to me. After loading, I even ran my finger across all the rounds to assure they felt uniform. After shooting, the 3 that misfired had a very very strong indent on the primer. Actually the indent looked deeper than the fired rounds, I guess because the charge didn't go off and slightly flatten the head and primer. One of them I tried to fire again, but it did no good. I have fired some other 7 mm mags that I've reloaded with only one exception before these. I had used Wolf primers before but now I'm using the CCI primers just to see what difference there was. Yeah, actually, the loads tonight with the CCI primers were ever so slightly better. Not enough to get excited about, but the main thing is I have never ever had any misfires in any rifle or pistol cartridges I have reloaded. I double checked to see if I could see or feel any difference between these 3 rounds compared to unfired rounds. I could not tell any difference at all. Like I said, all 3 of these rounds had very strong deep indents on the primers. BTW, I'm shooting them out of a Browning BLR. Is it the primers or is it me?

August 11, 2009, 02:11 PM	#2
Shoney Senior Member Join Date: February 21, 2002 Location: Transplanted from Montana Posts: 2,311	There are a couple of things that come to mind. The primer was seated too deeply crushing the anvill. or I would hazard the guess that it is the primer, if it didn't fire on the second firing, the seating being proper. The best thing is to call 1-866-286-7436 or use our Ask CCI on-line form. http://www.cci-ammunition.com/default.aspx __________________ I pledge allegiance to the Flag - - -, and to the Republic for which it stands….Our Forefathers were brilliant for giving us a Republic, not a democracy! Do you know the difference??? and WHY?http://www.wallbuilders.com/LIBissue...les.asp?id=111

August 11, 2009, 10:50 PM	#5
Shoney Senior Member Join Date: February 21, 2002 Location: Transplanted from Montana Posts: 2,311	glicerin The primer manufacturers have a coating on their primers that is impervious to oils and moisture for a fairly long time. The coating also resists solvents in small quantities for short durations. There have been many members of this forum, including myself, that have tested the validity of your concers, and found them to be false when using modern primers. __________________ I pledge allegiance to the Flag - - -, and to the Republic for which it stands….Our Forefathers were brilliant for giving us a Republic, not a democracy! Do you know the difference??? and WHY?http://www.wallbuilders.com/LIBissue...les.asp?id=111

August 12, 2009, 08:53 AM	#8
abber Senior Member Join Date: January 15, 2008 Location: PRK Posts: 735	I have never had a primer failure, but that is what it sounds like. Not enough variables to call it anything else, IMHO. __________________ I ain't got no safe queens. I shoots em all...

August 12, 2009, 10:32 AM	#9
Dannyl Senior Member Join Date: April 20, 2009 Location: Cape Town - South Africa Posts: 627	Sounds like a bad bach of primers to me Hi, Apart from the possibility that the flash-hole could have been blocked by tumbler media, it is very likely a bad batch of primers. From what you tell me I do not believe that you have seated them too deep. For what it's worth I have been using CCI primers for my rifle since I bought it in 96, they have always performed very well, so I am not sure that you need to get rid of them so soon. Perhaps it is worth you while speaking to the factory and maybe sending them some, could be that they will replace them for you? Brgds, Danny

August 11, 2009, 02:24 PM	#3
Doodlebugger45 Senior Member Join Date: April 15, 2009 Location: Wyoming Posts: 1,717	Thanks. I have double checked the 3 misfire rounds as well as all the other remaining unfired rounds. All of them are seated just barely below flush with the case. Maybe a couple thousandths or so below the case. I left a message on their help line in the hopes that they call me back. I want to know if they have any ideas about something that maybe I did wrong. If not, I'm thinking they might want to know about the problem. I can't see any numbering on the box that would tell me the lot number, but they still might have some ideas. In the meantime, I think I'll go back to the Wolf primers that I have.

August 11, 2009, 10:36 PM	#4
glicerin Member Join Date: October 9, 2006 Location: Northern Ontario Posts: 36	Were your cases perfectly dry, no liquid cleaners remaining, no oil on your fingers, no media left in flash hole? Very few primers ever misfire. Good luck

August 12, 2009, 12:01 AM	#6
Longdayjake Senior Member Join Date: August 11, 2009 Posts: 619	My guess is that they were just bad primers. The only other thing I have seen do this is a weak firing pin spring. The only time I have seen that is from old wwII guns and/or rusted springs.

August 12, 2009, 07:00 AM	#7
SL1 Senior Member Join Date: November 8, 2007 Posts: 2,001	Occassionally when seating primers, I have noticed one with a missing anvil. I have never loaded one with a missing anvil, so I am just assuming that it would not fire. So, first question is whether you observeed anvils in all of your rounds as you seated primers. Another suggestion is to pull the bullets from the 3 misfires and see what has transpired inside the case. Is the powder still new-looking, or are there indications that it has been exposed to some weak flame? Coating loss or granules stuck together mght indicate a primer that fired extremely weakly. Finally, I would CAREFULLY decap the misfires and see if there is an anvil in each. SL1

August 12, 2009, 10:54 AM	#10
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	Doodlebugger45 and Dannyl, Read this thread. Click on Hardcase's link to the ST article on primers. In that article pay particular attention to primer seating depth and bridge thickness. Interesting how critical seating depth is. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle Last edited by Unclenick; August 12, 2009 at 11:43 AM.

August 12, 2009, 11:31 AM	#11
GeauxTide Senior Member Join Date: April 20, 2009 Location: Helena, AL Posts: 4,424	+1 Dannyl I, too, have loaded with CCI primers for 40 years and have experienced only 3 misfires.

August 12, 2009, 11:39 AM	#12
Doodlebugger45 Senior Member Join Date: April 15, 2009 Location: Wyoming Posts: 1,717	The CCI factory rep called me back. He seems to think it's a case of not seating the primers deep enough. They are just barely below flush right now. But he said for some reason, even though they "feel" right, they might not be absolutely seated as far as possible. He said it was more common for that to happen in brand new brass as opposed to used brass. He suggested that I really "lean" on the primers when seating them with the hand primer tool. He told me a couple interesting things. He said that all their primers are triple-checked by human eyes after they make them. And according to him, the actual figures as far as having a "bad" primer is 1 in 3 million. All in all, it was a pleasant conversation, and the gist of it was "whatever it is, it's something that YOU did, not CCI". LOL I guess I'll try a few more and see what happens. This time I'll try some once-fired brass.

August 12, 2009, 11:47 AM	#13
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	Doodlebugger45, Another thought: have you done any case prep work on these cases? I find that if I run a depth uniforming cutter followed by the Wilson primer pocket profile cutter for their case trimmer, primers slide in and find bottom much more easily. Even running commercial brass through my Dillon swager helps with primer pocket tightness. Per the other thread I referenced in my last post, I find CCI primers harder to seat than most others, and needing all the help they can get, primer pocket-wise. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

August 12, 2009, 11:52 AM	#14
SL1 Senior Member Join Date: November 8, 2007 Posts: 2,001	The failure to fire with a "second strike" makes me doubt the theory that the primers were just not seated deeply enough. Especially in a rifle. And, with a big dent in the primer. But, you can try then with second, third and fourth strikes and be sure. There is just a small amout of movement possible to cushion the firing pin strike, so they have to bottom-out and fire eventually if that is the only problem. SL1