Former Civic Hero Now Labeled a Vigilante, for his latest use of his Revolver - Photo

LanceOregon · May 27, 2010, 09:54 PM

Roger Witter is a 48 yr old man who lives next to the infamous Rockwood neighborhood of Gresham, OR, which is adjacent to Portland. Witter has an Oregon Concealed Handgun License, and was lauded as a hero last year, when he intervened with his revolver and rescued a man who had been badly beaten on the head with a hammer in Rockwood. A long time resident of the area, Witter has watched the Rockwood neighborhood deteriorate rapidly in recent years, as drugs and gangs have fueled ever increasing crime.

This past Tuesday night, Witter was shopping in the local AT&T store, when two young black males stole Apple iPhones from the store, and ran off. Witter ran off after them, and witnessed the thieves getting into a getaway car. At this point, he fired two rounds from his revolver, in an attempt to shoot out one of the front tires of the vehicle.

Witter's attempt to take out the tire failed. When police arrived, they promptly arrested Witter, and took away both his firearm and his license to carry. Initially, the police charged Witter with four crimes: unlawful use of a weapon, reckless endangerment, disorderly conduct and unlawful discharge of a weapon within city limits.

However, the judge hearing his case threw out two of the charges, and he now only faces two misdemeanors: disorderly conduct and discharging a firearm inside city limits. The local Sheriff has stated that Witter's CHL will not be returned to him, even if he is found to be not guilty.

The liberal local media in Portland has been having a field day with this story, with many labeling Witter as being a "Vigilante". They condemn him for being irresponsible, and not obeying the law.

Gun owners have been split over this controversy, with some supporting Witter, but others saying that the Oregon CHL does not make a person a police officer, and that Witter went too far in chasing after the crooks, and trying to shoot the getaway car's tire out.

While Witter awaits trial, and has been forced to hire an attorney, both of the two young black male thieves remain at large in the community.

What is your take on this? Did Witter show bad judgment? Was he reckless and irresponsible? Does he deserve to face charges? Oregon toughened its CHL law in recent years, and now just a misdemeanor conviction will bar a person from getting a license. So if convicted, Witter will never be able to get a CHL again.

Here is a photo of Witter being interviewed by the press:

Their are many aspects to this case that anyone who has a CHL law should take into consideration and think about. Would anyone here ever fire a gun at a fleeing thief? Does a minor crime like that justify pulling your weapon and firing? On the other hand, what if it had instead been a murder that Witter had witnessed? Would that then have made him opening fire OK?

Here is a detailed news report including a video interview with Witter:

http://gresham.katu.com/content/man-...ice-arrest-him

And here is an editorial in Today's Portland Oregonian newspaper, criticizing Witter for his actions:

http://www.oregonlive.com/opinion/in...ith_a_gun.html

And here is one of the examples of the media labeling Witter a vigilante.

http://www.katu.com/news/local/94974914.html

Tell me, would you say that he is a "vigilante" ?? Or is the media just trying to sensationalize the story?

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Lavid2002 · May 27, 2010, 09:59 PM

IMHO....

A gun is deadly force. Not something you use to shoot out tires with. Sure its a fine use for it, but....

Worst case scenario
*He could have killed one of the thieves
*Could have killed someone else if the bullet missed its intended target (Which it did)
*If he did hit the tire the thieves would have tried to run (You know they would have) and could have caused an accident
*He could have escalated the incident and thieves could have shot back

Best case scenario
*He hits the tire, the thieves surrender until police arrive.2 I phones are saved....what...300 bucks?

He shouldn't have shot.

-Dave

johnwilliamson062 · May 27, 2010, 10:03 PM

Even if he hit the tire, it isn't going to stop the bullet. That bullet is going to ricochet off the pavement or wheel or something and go who knows where. It isn't a safe shot to stop a car, especially over a couple of I-phones.

I can't believe he chased after the two guys. What an idiot. If he absolutely feel the need to chase after them he can't go any farther than following them and reporting location to police unless they are a threat to someone. Being a threat three minutes ago doesn't work.

Maromero · May 27, 2010, 10:04 PM

Vigilante: One who takes or advocates the taking of law enforcement into one's own hands.

According to the dictionary he is.

For two iPhones?

LanceOregon · May 27, 2010, 10:08 PM

So I assume that everyone here would vote for a conviction, if you were a member of the jury in his upcoming trial?

If so, how long should his sentence be?

.

vranasaurus · May 27, 2010, 10:17 PM

You use a gun to defend your life or the life of another. Rarely if ever is deadly force appropriate to stop the theft of property. Firing a gun in this situation was the wrong answer.

zxcvbob · May 27, 2010, 10:58 PM

Quote:

So I assume that everyone here would vote for a conviction, if you were a member of the jury in his upcoming trial?

If so, how long should his sentence be?

Yes. $100 fine and 6 months probation.

johnwilliamson062 · May 27, 2010, 11:03 PM

I would have no problem putting a felony on his record so he can never have a CCW or even own a firearm again.
Jail time and such should be minimum statutory sentence in my mind.

gc70 · May 27, 2010, 11:09 PM

Quote:

Did Witter show bad judgment? Was he reckless and irresponsible? Does he deserve to face charges?

Yes, yes, and yes.

Quote:

So I assume that everyone here would vote for a conviction, if you were a member of the jury in his upcoming trial?

Yes.

Quote:

If so, how long should his sentence be?

I would favor a maximum fine and probation.

**Mike Irwin** · May 28, 2010, 12:45 AM

"At this point, he fired two rounds from his revolver, in an attempt to shoot out one of the front tires of the vehicle."

INCREDIBLY bad form on his part, and an act that only serves to give the rest of us (who hopefully exercise better situational judgment and restraint) a very bad image.

Gary L. Griffiths · May 28, 2010, 12:50 AM

Under the circumstances, even a police officer would not be justified in using deadly force under Tennessee v. Garner. Shooting to stop petty thieves (really, shoplifters, if I read the story right) is irresponsible. He should have gotten their license # and provided as good a description of them and their vehicle as possible to police.

Don't know that he should be ineligible for further CCW, but he certainly used poor judgment in this situation.

Kreyzhorse · May 28, 2010, 06:34 AM

He used terrible judgement and I certainly support the charges filed against him. As far as punishment, I'm okay with whatever is handed down.

Having a CCW license entitles you to act appropriately with your firearm and that's it. Attempting to shoot out tires doesn't fall into that it area.

Bartholomew Roberts · May 28, 2010, 06:40 AM

Quote:

Did Witter show bad judgment? Was he reckless and irresponsible? Does he deserve to face charges? Oregon toughened its CHL law in recent years, and now just a misdemeanor conviction will bar a person from getting a license. So if convicted, Witter will never be able to get a CHL again.

Yes. Yes. Yes. Frankly, I think a strong argument can be made that Witter shouldn't have a CHL again if he doesn't realize that trying to shoot out tires with your pistol is an inappropriate use of deadly force in a situation that didn't call for it at all.

Witter (and CHL holders in general) are lucky as hell that one of those rounds that missed the tire didn't end up in some bystander - If you think the press is bad now, just imagine that.

BillCA · May 28, 2010, 06:51 AM

Quote:

"At this point, he fired two rounds from his revolver, in an attempt to shoot out one of the front tires of the vehicle."

Methinks he's using Hollywood movie tactics here.

Revoke his CHL, fine him $250 and six months probation and force him to get chewed out by Clint Smith at Thunder Ranch.

Double Naught Spy · May 28, 2010, 06:55 AM

Quote:

The liberal local media in Portland has been having a field day with this story, with many labeling Witter as being a "Vigilante". They condemn him for being irresponsible, and not obeying the law.

Certainly Witter was irresponsible and didn't obey the law, but he wasn't a vigilante.

Quote:

Vigilante: One who takes or advocates the taking of law enforcement into one's own hands.

According to the dictionary he is.

Taking the law into one's own hands is not the definition of vigilante. It is commonly misused in that manner, but that is not correct. By this definition, the acts of self defense and protecting one's own property would be considered vigilanteism, which they are not.

Quote:

a member of a volunteer committee organized to suppress and punish crime summarily (as when the processes of law are viewed as inadequate)

Quote:

A Vigilantee is an unauthorized person who conduct a trial on the accused persons with or without collecting evidences or ascertaining the truth and confer punishment to the accused considering the depth of crime involved. A Vigilantee is not legally authorized person to do such trials and order punishments. They get the authority from social status, knowledge, wealth, reputation, physical power etc

.

He was not trying to exact justice from the thieves without due process.

Quote:

n owners have been split over this controversy, with some supporting Witter, but others saying that the Oregon CHL does not make a person a police officer, and that Witter went too far in chasing after the crooks, and trying to shoot the getaway car's tire out.

If there are folks supporting what Witter did, maybe they shouldn't have CHLs either given they don't seem to understand the law. It is hard to make proper legal decisions when you don't understand the law.

**Mike Irwin** · May 28, 2010, 08:26 AM

"Having a CCW license entitles you to act appropriately with your firearm and that's it."

It doesn't entitle us to act appropriately.

It OBLIGATES us to act appropriately.

Musketeer · May 28, 2010, 09:00 AM

Idiot.

Fine him $500 - $1,000 and probation for 6 Months. Not a felonny because I do not believe it warrants loosing all rights to firearms ownership.

Loss of CHL for a minimum of 2 years and may only reapply after completion of a suitable course coverring the use of force. LFI1 comes to mind.

**Mike Irwin** · May 28, 2010, 09:02 AM

I'd really have to say that Witter is lucky that he wasn't charged with attempted murder or assault with a deadly weapon.

Maromero · May 28, 2010, 10:23 AM

Quote:

Taking the law into one's own hands is not the definition of vigilante. It is commonly misused in that manner, but that is not correct. By this definition, the acts of self defense and protecting one's own property would be considered vigilanteism, which they are not.

I believe there is a significant diference between taking the law into one's own hands and taking law enforcement into one's own hands. They are two different things but I could be mistaken.

NavyLT · May 28, 2010, 11:03 AM

He did wrong.

LanceOregon · May 28, 2010, 11:08 AM

Quote:

If there are folks supporting what Witter did, maybe they shouldn't have CHLs either given they don't seem to understand the law. It is hard to make proper legal decisions when you don't understand the law.

Well, the main problem is that some parts of the Portland Metro area are going to hell. Drugs and gang activity are fueling increased violence and a lot more theft. It has got worse in the last couple of years for sure. Unemployment is extremely high, and one in five Oregonians is now on food stamps.

The police are hamstrung, though, as every time a black man is shot, there are charges of racism, and even large public protests. The Reverend Jessee Jackson even came to Portland this past February, to lead a major protest rally, charging the police with racism.

Here is a photo of Jackson appearing last February with leaders of the Portland Black Community, condemning the police for racism:

Even more recently, the mayor of Portland ( a very liberal gay Democrat ), fired the police chief of the city, who happened to be a woman. But he did not fire her over problems with handling the increasing crime. She was instead fired due to the outrage over these incidents of alleged police wrongdoing. So the liberal mayor ( who has even publicly admitted to having a sexual relationship with an 18 yr old intern after initially lying about it and denying it ever happened during his election campaign ) cares more about addressing the issue of police brutality, than he does the crime situation.

The folks on the more conservative side of the political spectrum in the Portland Metro area are getting a bit frustrated with the whole mess, I do believe. They are such a minority, though, that they cannot influence matters politically. Anyway, I think that may be why some have made comments in support of Witter. People are feeling frustrated, and don't feel that the government is doing enough about crime.

P.S. - Gresham, the city where this incident with Witter took place, is right next to Portland, and is part of the Portland Metro area. It really is all one contiguous metro area. You really cannot even notice when you go from one city to the next, unless you pay close attention to signs.

P.P.S - The liberal Portland City Government does not even support the right of any citizens to have a Concealed Handgun License. But they can't do anything about it, as state law has precedence.

.

LanceOregon · May 28, 2010, 11:18 AM

Quote:

I'd really have to say that Witter is lucky that he wasn't charged with attempted murder or assault with a deadly weapon.

Well, the judge that Witter appeared before felt differently. He dropped the two most serious charges, and left only the two most minor misdemeanors.

I don't know what Witter's attorney may have said in court to argue for the dismissal of the additional charges. Perhaps Witter's lack of any police record played a role.

Remember that a year ago Witter was hailed as being a hero for coming to the aid of a man who had been badly beaten with a hammer, and was covered in blood.

.

**Mike Irwin** · May 28, 2010, 11:21 AM

Police start the charging process by arresting for violation of certain sections of the law, and the prosecuting attorney formalizes those charges in a charging document.

So, as I said, it's lucky Witter wasn't charged with attempted murder or assault with a deadly weapon.

That would have made his treatment at the hands of the press, and treatment of gunowners in general, probably a lot worse.

"Remember that a year ago Witter was hailed as being a hero for coming to the aid of a man who had been badly beaten with a hammer, and was covered in blood."

This second incident makes it seem as if Mr. Whitter might have a touch of "superman syndrome."

LanceOregon · May 28, 2010, 11:27 AM

Quote:

Police start the charging process by arresting for violation of certain sections of the law.

So, as I said, it's lucky Witter wasn't charged with attempted murder or assault with a deadly weapon.

I fully understand that. But the judge who Witter appeared before did not even support the much lesser charges the police made of unlawful use of a weapon and reckless endangerment.

So if the judge felt that those far lesser charges were not appropriate, then how on earth could he have ever agreed with assault with a deadly weapon or attempted murder??

.

rjrivero · May 28, 2010, 11:44 AM

He would have been much better off taking down a license plate number and direction of travel. Shooting at a fleeing car? This man has been watching too many movies.

He's lucky that the two charges have been dropped. He'll loose his gun and license for sure. I can't say I disagree with that either. We don't need another mall ninja out there.

May 27, 2010, 09:54 PM	#1
LanceOregon Junior member Join Date: May 10, 2008 Location: Oregon Posts: 2,774	Former Civic Hero Now Labeled a Vigilante, for his latest use of his Revolver - Photo Roger Witter is a 48 yr old man who lives next to the infamous Rockwood neighborhood of Gresham, OR, which is adjacent to Portland. Witter has an Oregon Concealed Handgun License, and was lauded as a hero last year, when he intervened with his revolver and rescued a man who had been badly beaten on the head with a hammer in Rockwood. A long time resident of the area, Witter has watched the Rockwood neighborhood deteriorate rapidly in recent years, as drugs and gangs have fueled ever increasing crime. This past Tuesday night, Witter was shopping in the local AT&T store, when two young black males stole Apple iPhones from the store, and ran off. Witter ran off after them, and witnessed the thieves getting into a getaway car. At this point, he fired two rounds from his revolver, in an attempt to shoot out one of the front tires of the vehicle. Witter's attempt to take out the tire failed. When police arrived, they promptly arrested Witter, and took away both his firearm and his license to carry. Initially, the police charged Witter with four crimes: unlawful use of a weapon, reckless endangerment, disorderly conduct and unlawful discharge of a weapon within city limits. However, the judge hearing his case threw out two of the charges, and he now only faces two misdemeanors: disorderly conduct and discharging a firearm inside city limits. The local Sheriff has stated that Witter's CHL will not be returned to him, even if he is found to be not guilty. The liberal local media in Portland has been having a field day with this story, with many labeling Witter as being a "Vigilante". They condemn him for being irresponsible, and not obeying the law. Gun owners have been split over this controversy, with some supporting Witter, but others saying that the Oregon CHL does not make a person a police officer, and that Witter went too far in chasing after the crooks, and trying to shoot the getaway car's tire out. While Witter awaits trial, and has been forced to hire an attorney, both of the two young black male thieves remain at large in the community. What is your take on this? Did Witter show bad judgment? Was he reckless and irresponsible? Does he deserve to face charges? Oregon toughened its CHL law in recent years, and now just a misdemeanor conviction will bar a person from getting a license. So if convicted, Witter will never be able to get a CHL again. Here is a photo of Witter being interviewed by the press: Their are many aspects to this case that anyone who has a CHL law should take into consideration and think about. Would anyone here ever fire a gun at a fleeing thief? Does a minor crime like that justify pulling your weapon and firing? On the other hand, what if it had instead been a murder that Witter had witnessed? Would that then have made him opening fire OK? Here is a detailed news report including a video interview with Witter: http://gresham.katu.com/content/man-...ice-arrest-him And here is an editorial in Today's Portland Oregonian newspaper, criticizing Witter for his actions: http://www.oregonlive.com/opinion/in...ith_a_gun.html And here is one of the examples of the media labeling Witter a vigilante. http://www.katu.com/news/local/94974914.html Tell me, would you say that he is a "vigilante" ?? Or is the media just trying to sensationalize the story? .

May 27, 2010, 09:59 PM	#2
Lavid2002 Senior Member Join Date: April 6, 2007 Posts: 2,568	IMHO.... A gun is deadly force. Not something you use to shoot out tires with. Sure its a fine use for it, but.... Worst case scenario He could have killed one of the thieves Could have killed someone else if the bullet missed its intended target (Which it did) If he did hit the tire the thieves would have tried to run (You know they would have) and could have caused an accident He could have escalated the incident and thieves could have shot back Best case scenario *He hits the tire, the thieves surrender until police arrive.2 I phones are saved....what...300 bucks? He shouldn't have shot. -Dave __________________ Math>Grammar

May 27, 2010, 11:03 PM	#8
johnwilliamson062 Junior member Join Date: May 16, 2008 Posts: 9,995	I would have no problem putting a felony on his record so he can never have a CCW or even own a firearm again. Jail time and such should be minimum statutory sentence in my mind. Last edited by johnwilliamson062; May 27, 2010 at 11:52 PM.

May 28, 2010, 12:45 AM	#10
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	"At this point, he fired two rounds from his revolver, in an attempt to shoot out one of the front tires of the vehicle." INCREDIBLY bad form on his part, and an act that only serves to give the rest of us (who hopefully exercise better situational judgment and restraint) a very bad image. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

May 28, 2010, 12:50 AM	#11
Gary L. Griffiths Senior Member Join Date: April 7, 2000 Location: AZ, WA Posts: 1,466	Under the circumstances, even a police officer would not be justified in using deadly force under Tennessee v. Garner. Shooting to stop petty thieves (really, shoplifters, if I read the story right) is irresponsible. He should have gotten their license # and provided as good a description of them and their vehicle as possible to police. Don't know that he should be ineligible for further CCW, but he certainly used poor judgment in this situation. __________________ Violence is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and valorous feeling which believes that nothing is worth violence is much worse. Those who have nothing for which they are willing to fight; nothing they care about more than their own craven apathy; are miserable creatures who have no chance of being free, unless made and kept so by the valor of those better than themselves. Gary L. Griffiths (Paraphrasing John Stuart Mill)

May 27, 2010, 10:03 PM	#3
johnwilliamson062 Junior member Join Date: May 16, 2008 Posts: 9,995	Even if he hit the tire, it isn't going to stop the bullet. That bullet is going to ricochet off the pavement or wheel or something and go who knows where. It isn't a safe shot to stop a car, especially over a couple of I-phones. I can't believe he chased after the two guys. What an idiot. If he absolutely feel the need to chase after them he can't go any farther than following them and reporting location to police unless they are a threat to someone. Being a threat three minutes ago doesn't work.

May 27, 2010, 10:04 PM	#4
Maromero Junior member Join Date: January 21, 2009 Location: Outside the continental U Posts: 752	Vigilante: One who takes or advocates the taking of law enforcement into one's own hands. According to the dictionary he is. For two iPhones?

May 27, 2010, 10:08 PM	#5
LanceOregon Junior member Join Date: May 10, 2008 Location: Oregon Posts: 2,774	So I assume that everyone here would vote for a conviction, if you were a member of the jury in his upcoming trial? If so, how long should his sentence be? .

May 27, 2010, 10:17 PM	#6
vranasaurus Senior Member Join Date: November 16, 2008 Posts: 1,184	You use a gun to defend your life or the life of another. Rarely if ever is deadly force appropriate to stop the theft of property. Firing a gun in this situation was the wrong answer.

May 28, 2010, 06:34 AM	#12
Kreyzhorse Senior Member Join Date: April 12, 2006 Location: NKY Posts: 12,463	He used terrible judgement and I certainly support the charges filed against him. As far as punishment, I'm okay with whatever is handed down. Having a CCW license entitles you to act appropriately with your firearm and that's it. Attempting to shoot out tires doesn't fall into that it area. __________________ "He who laughs last, laughs dead." Homer Simpson

May 28, 2010, 08:26 AM	#16
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	"Having a CCW license entitles you to act appropriately with your firearm and that's it." It doesn't entitle us to act appropriately. It OBLIGATES us to act appropriately. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

May 28, 2010, 09:00 AM	#17
Musketeer Senior Member Join Date: September 12, 2005 Posts: 3,733	Idiot. Fine him $500 - $1,000 and probation for 6 Months. Not a felonny because I do not believe it warrants loosing all rights to firearms ownership. Loss of CHL for a minimum of 2 years and may only reapply after completion of a suitable course coverring the use of force. LFI1 comes to mind. __________________ "Religions are all alike - founded upon fables and mythologies." Thomas Jefferson "The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason." Benjamin Franklin

May 28, 2010, 09:02 AM	#18
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	I'd really have to say that Witter is lucky that he wasn't charged with attempted murder or assault with a deadly weapon. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

May 28, 2010, 11:03 AM	#20
NavyLT Junior member Join Date: January 25, 2006 Location: Oak Harbor, WA Posts: 1,719	He did wrong.

May 28, 2010, 11:21 AM	#23
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	Police start the charging process by arresting for violation of certain sections of the law, and the prosecuting attorney formalizes those charges in a charging document. So, as I said, it's lucky Witter wasn't charged with attempted murder or assault with a deadly weapon. That would have made his treatment at the hands of the press, and treatment of gunowners in general, probably a lot worse. "Remember that a year ago Witter was hailed as being a hero for coming to the aid of a man who had been badly beaten with a hammer, and was covered in blood." This second incident makes it seem as if Mr. Whitter might have a touch of "superman syndrome." __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

May 28, 2010, 11:44 AM	#25
rjrivero Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2008 Location: NW Ohio Posts: 1,399	He would have been much better off taking down a license plate number and direction of travel. Shooting at a fleeing car? This man has been watching too many movies. He's lucky that the two charges have been dropped. He'll loose his gun and license for sure. I can't say I disagree with that either. We don't need another mall ninja out there.