The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Conference Center > Law and Civil Rights

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old January 17, 2013, 10:46 PM   #1
dtaski
Member
 
Join Date: April 8, 2009
Location: South Cent. PA
Posts: 33
Private restaurant posting a no guns permitted sign

Guys,

I live in PA and had dinner tonight in a major national chain restaurant. They had a sign posted on the door stating,

XYZ , Inc
Bans guns on these premises.

Any idea what I could be charged with if I'm caught carrying concealed ? (with a legal CCW permit )
dtaski is offline  
Old January 17, 2013, 10:53 PM   #2
Kframe
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 18, 1999
Location: MN
Posts: 640
It varies state by state. In MN it is simple trespass IF you refuse to leave after being spotted carrying.

I don't know about PA. Maybe check here --> PA Statutes
__________________
RN - ICU
NRA - PATRON LIFE
Kframe is offline  
Old January 17, 2013, 10:54 PM   #3
Al Norris
Moderator Emeritus
 
Join Date: June 29, 2000
Location: Rupert, Idaho
Posts: 9,660
Unless the law in PA gives legal weight to such signs, the only thing that can be done (should the management see your concealed firearm (huh???), would be to ask you to leave. Failure to leave when asked may result in trespass charges.
Al Norris is offline  
Old January 17, 2013, 10:54 PM   #4
musher
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 23, 2005
Posts: 462
Depends on the laws of your state.

If you have a CCW, you should know whether you have legal obligations with respect to posted areas. You should review the relevant statutes/regulations.

In any case, if you are caught and refuse to leave when asked, you can be charged with trespass.

---I gotta learn to type faster...
musher is offline  
Old January 17, 2013, 10:56 PM   #5
kraigwy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 16, 2008
Location: Wyoming
Posts: 11,061
Why would anyone wish to support a resturant that posted such a sign?
__________________
Kraig Stuart
CPT USAR Ret
USAMU Sniper School
Distinguished Rifle Badge 1071
kraigwy is offline  
Old January 17, 2013, 10:58 PM   #6
MLeake
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2007
Location: Outside KC, MO
Posts: 10,128
According to handgunlaw.us there is no force of law in Pennsylvania unless the sign is posted in a place where Pennsylvania law would make carry illegal, anyway. If asked to leave, you must, or I would assume you could be charged with trespassing (how it is in Missouri).

BUT you should check your state's statutes, straight from the horse's mouth.
MLeake is offline  
Old January 17, 2013, 11:03 PM   #7
Willie Sutton
Junior member
 
Join Date: January 26, 2012
Posts: 1,066
Why would anyone wish to support a resturant that posted such a sign?


^^^ what he said.

Why worry? Walk down the street and eat where you are welcome.

After dropping off a business card telling them why you are not spending money there, of course.



Willie

.
Willie Sutton is offline  
Old January 17, 2013, 11:29 PM   #8
sigcurious
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 25, 2011
Posts: 1,755
Quote:
Why would anyone wish to support a resturant that posted such a sign?
Slightly unique situation, but living in Vegas almost all of the casinos are posted(no force of law). Most of the movie theaters are on casino properties, best steak I've found in town is on a casino property, events, etc.
sigcurious is offline  
Old January 17, 2013, 11:35 PM   #9
hermannr
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 24, 2011
Posts: 730
I am of the opinion that No guns, no money, is the proper response. Be sure to let management know why you are not spending your money with them...

BTW: Most major national food chains follow the laws of the state they are in. Sometimes it takes a letter to corporate to correct a local practice that is not in line with that corporate practice.
hermannr is offline  
Old January 17, 2013, 11:40 PM   #10
iraiam
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 6, 2012
Location: Lakewood, CO
Posts: 1,057
If I see one of those signs, I don't enter wether I'm armed or not. That's their policy and they are entitled to it, but I am also entitled to take my business elsewhere, which I will do every time.
__________________
NRA Lifetime Member Since 1999

"I ask, sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few public officials." George Mason
iraiam is offline  
Old January 17, 2013, 11:41 PM   #11
roashooter
Junior member
 
Join Date: December 24, 2010
Posts: 508
when a local resturant put up new sign... "no guns"....my wife and I were seated....and I asked in friendly manner...."May I speak to the manager?"

The manager appeared shortly...he was someone I had seen befor...and he plesantly asked what he could do for me.

I inquired about the new "No guns" sign at the front door.

He said he thought it was a good idea...reflecting the events in the news as of late.

I looked him straight in the eye...and made the comment........"So if a crazy individual storms in here while we are having dinner...you will gaurentee our safety?"

He kinda stammered a bit....said it would not take that long for the police to arrive.......he was finishing his sentance as I stood...my wife stood...I handed him three cents....told him it was all the business he deserved from me....we would take our money to another establishment...

the table next to us....got up and left with us...
roashooter is offline  
Old January 18, 2013, 05:52 PM   #12
Aguila Blanca
Staff
 
Join Date: September 25, 2008
Location: CONUS
Posts: 18,434
You really have to wonder what the people who put up those sign have been smoking. I mean ... seriously. The shooter at the Sandy Hook school shot out the glass to gain entry through a locked entrance door -- and these mental midgets think a sign is going to somehow be a magic talisman that will stop a gunman in his tracks at the door?

The impossibility of this succeeding is so blatantly obvious that it boggles the mind to consider that these people actually ... believe ... it.
Aguila Blanca is offline  
Old January 18, 2013, 05:56 PM   #13
manta49
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 15, 2011
Location: N Ireland. UK.
Posts: 1,809
Respect their right not to want firearms on their premises. And go somewhere else.
manta49 is offline  
Old January 18, 2013, 06:33 PM   #14
Double Naught Spy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 8, 2001
Location: Forestburg, Montague Cnty, TX
Posts: 12,715
Quote:
You really have to wonder what the people who put up those sign have been smoking. I mean ... seriously. The shooter at the Sandy Hook school shot out the glass to gain entry through a locked entrance door -- and these mental midgets think a sign is going to somehow be a magic talisman that will stop a gunman in his tracks at the door?
Of course not. They know that such a sign won't stop such people. They are trying to stop the idiot gun owns who have a need to fiddle with their guns while out and about. You know the ones, right? We discuss them here from time to time. They are the ones with guns that go off while standing in line, while in a seat in a movie theater, while standing at the checkout at Walmart in AZ, or that shoot a toilet in an eatery in Utah.

If they thought such signs would stop bad guys, then they would just put up a no robbery sign or no bad guy, but they don't do that.

Examples...
http://thefiringline.com/forums/show...charge+walmart

This next guy hurt himself, a toilet, and a woman.
http://jonathanturley.org/2009/01/19...jr-restaurant/

http://www.clarksvilleonline.com/201...n-two-injured/

This guy managed to hurt a total of 4 people...
http://dfw.cbslocal.com/2012/07/24/t...llas-wal-mart/

So folks think that by not allowing guns, the chances of something going wrong are reduced. Never mind they they occur at an extraordinarily small fraction amount of the time, even compared to bad guys robbing the place.
__________________
"If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher." -- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011
My Hunting Videos https://www.youtube.com/user/HornHillRange

Last edited by Double Naught Spy; January 18, 2013 at 06:42 PM.
Double Naught Spy is offline  
Old January 18, 2013, 07:17 PM   #15
honkytonkrolltide
Junior Member
 
Join Date: November 28, 2012
Posts: 4
I agree with everyone that said they don't give these places their business. This has been a practice of mine all my life. I can remember as a kid, walking in somewhere with my dad and immediately turning around at the door. I was maybe six, I asked him what we were doing and he calmly said, "if I can't protect myself or you (me) in this place then I'm not giving them a dime". I guess that resonated, and it's been my practice ever since. I've been carrying since I was 21 and have yet to be asked to leave a "non-posted" establishment. I'm from Tennessee and allowed to open carry there, and I'm hardly given a second glance.
honkytonkrolltide is offline  
Old January 18, 2013, 07:25 PM   #16
Aguila Blanca
Staff
 
Join Date: September 25, 2008
Location: CONUS
Posts: 18,434
Quote:
Originally Posted by Double Naught Spy
Of course not. They know that such a sign won't stop such people. They are trying to stop the idiot gun owns who have a need to fiddle with their guns while out and about. You know the ones, right? We discuss them here from time to time. They are the ones with guns that go off while standing in line, while in a seat in a movie theater, while standing at the checkout at Walmart in AZ, or that shoot a toilet in an eatery in Utah.

If they thought such signs would stop bad guys, then they would just put up a no robbery sign or no bad guy, but they don't do that.
I disagree. I don't think restaurant and theater owners who aren't "gunnies" are even aware of such incidents. I think they actually believe that putting up a "No guns allowed" sign will somehow prevent robbers with guns from entering their premises.
Aguila Blanca is offline  
Old January 18, 2013, 08:05 PM   #17
Punisher_1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 16, 2012
Location: Florida
Posts: 136
Just remember to leave when asked. It may not be a simple Misdemeanor Trespassing if you even stay to argue and you are carrying. It would be an "armed" Trespassing in Florida and a Felony violation. Once a person of authority asks you to leave you have to exit. Delaying exiting to talk is the trespassing part.
Punisher_1 is offline  
Old January 18, 2013, 11:25 PM   #18
rwilson452
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 10, 2004
Location: Tioga co. PA
Posts: 2,647
Quote:
Unless the law in PA gives legal weight to such signs, the only thing that can be done (should the management see your concealed firearm (huh???), would be to ask you to leave. Failure to leave when asked may result in trespass charges.
If you enter such a place and don't leave when ask you may be charged with trespass. If you enter suh a place that you know posted. You may be charged with defiant trespass, a more serious offense.


A good place to look for information on PA gun laws is pafoa.org.
__________________
USNRET '61-'81
rwilson452 is offline  
Old January 19, 2013, 08:45 AM   #19
Qtiphky
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 11, 2008
Location: Upper Michigan, above the Mackinac Bridge
Posts: 568
Sign=No Business from me

If I see a sign, I do not patronize them. There are enough places that I need to avoid due to federal law, that entering an establishment by choice with a sign that says no one in here is armed and ready to defend themselves, to me, just doesn't seem logical. Banks, federal buildings, schools, hospitals, -there are plenty of other restaurants or whatever that will not question my rights to carry. Those other places are inconvenient to disarm and leave it in the vehicle, I don't need another one.
Qtiphky is offline  
Old January 19, 2013, 09:50 AM   #20
AH.74
Junior member
 
Join Date: October 13, 2008
Location: Hermit's Peak
Posts: 623
Quote:
I disagree. I don't think restaurant and theater owners who aren't "gunnies" are even aware of such incidents. I think they actually believe that putting up a "No guns allowed" sign will somehow prevent robbers with guns from entering their premises.
I think this is accurate, but it is also an innate fear of having any guns present whatsoever. These people are sure that there is an element of danger in just having them around.
AH.74 is offline  
Old January 19, 2013, 12:46 PM   #21
Double Naught Spy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 8, 2001
Location: Forestburg, Montague Cnty, TX
Posts: 12,715
Then why don't they put up "No robberies allowed" signs? Guns are not the only tools used for robberies, LOL.
__________________
"If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher." -- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011
My Hunting Videos https://www.youtube.com/user/HornHillRange
Double Naught Spy is offline  
Old January 19, 2013, 01:26 PM   #22
Evan Thomas
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 7, 2008
Location: Upper midwest
Posts: 5,631
By and large, business owners aren't dumb. They know the signs aren't going to prevent them from being robbed. The main reason for posting such signs: liability... liability... liability.

They're not keen on being sued in the event one of those gun-fiddling fools comes in, has a negligent discharge, and injures someone. Also, many businesses -- banks, for example -- have a standard policy that employees are not to resist if they are robbed: they'd much rather the tellers just hand over the money than get caught in the middle of a gunfight. There are both liability and workers' comp. concerns there... (actually in both those cases) -- so they'd rather not have armed customers who may want to play hero in such a situation. Not everyone with a concealed carry permit necessarily has training in using deadly force in such situations, so from the point of view of a business, it's a valid concern. (As far as I'm aware, in most jurisdictions even off-duty police officers are taught not to intervene with force in such situations -- and they do have training.)

Robbery is what they're concerned about -- that's more likely by far than some sort of rampage shooting. They're just playing the odds on keeping their employees safe, and their own exposure as low as possible: if it's just a matter of money, hand it over and write it off.

Just respect the sign and move on.
Evan Thomas is offline  
Old January 19, 2013, 01:40 PM   #23
Mike Irwin
Staff
 
Join Date: April 13, 2000
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 41,374
What restaurant, please?

Why not identify such a location so people like me, who are from central Pennsylvania and are frequently back can avoid it?
__________________
"The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza

Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.
Mike Irwin is offline  
Old January 19, 2013, 05:23 PM   #24
AndyWest
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 14, 2011
Posts: 627
I don't understand the hostility toward these signs. It's just a private citizen asking you to respect his wishes. Don't get me wrong, I'd prefer to carry everywhere I go. But if a friend or family member asks me not to carry, or smoke, or swear in their home, I don't.

Of course I also completely support going elsewhere if you don't agree with those wishes. But I see no problem with the signs on private property.
__________________
Shoot smart. Shoot S-Mart.
AndyWest is offline  
Old January 19, 2013, 08:38 PM   #25
WyMark
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 10, 2011
Location: Wyoming
Posts: 647
Quote:
Of course not. They know that such a sign won't stop such people. They are trying to stop the idiot gun owns who have a need to fiddle with their guns while out and about. You know the ones, right? We discuss them here from time to time. They are the ones with guns that go off while standing in line, while in a seat in a movie theater, while standing at the checkout at Walmart in AZ, or that shoot a toilet in an eatery in Utah.

If they thought such signs would stop bad guys, then they would just put up a no robbery sign or no bad guy, but they don't do that.

Examples...
http://thefiringline.com/forums/show...charge+walmart

This next guy hurt himself, a toilet, and a woman.
http://jonathanturley.org/2009/01/19...jr-restaurant/

http://www.clarksvilleonline.com/201...n-two-injured/

This guy managed to hurt a total of 4 people...
http://dfw.cbslocal.com/2012/07/24/t...llas-wal-mart/

So folks think that by not allowing guns, the chances of something going wrong are reduced. Never mind they they occur at an extraordinarily small fraction amount of the time, even compared to bad guys robbing the place.
And this one, in a local Starbucks:
http://www.wyomingnews.com/articles/...l_12-28-11.txt


I'm probably twice as likely to be shot by an idiot than by a bad guy.

I don't understand the issue with the signs either, it's private property and if they don't want guns on it then that's their business. I have the choice of either leaving my gun outside or going elsewhere.

This has been discussed here before, and I still believe that your property rights trump my 2A rights every time.

P.S. - This one too, from today:
http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index...at_medina.html

And this, also today:
http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/n...,6098861.story

If you take your gun to a gun show to sell, and you're too stupid to clear it before you go in, then maybe you don't need to own guns after all. In fact that's the one gun control measure I could really get behind: an IQ test.

Last edited by WyMark; January 19, 2013 at 08:46 PM.
WyMark is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:02 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2021 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Page generated in 0.07872 seconds with 10 queries