Simulating Stress

[xMINORxTHREATx]

So I was wondering if there are anything specific you guys do to simulate the stress and adrenaline of a self defense situation while doing drills?

I've tried doing push ups and pull ups then drawing and firing, I've tried doing front/back/go's then drawing and firing, I've even tried holding my breath for a long time then drawing and firing. Still didn't make a difference.

I've noticed that instead of being pure adrenaline, its more of exhaustion that I feel. I can't seem to find anything that really makes my blood pump enough to simulate a real SD situation, short of having some Drill Sergeants in my face threatening to kick my behind.

[Wag]

I understand that you and inject adrenaline doses in order to accomplish this.

--Wag--

[xMINORxTHREATx]

Pulp Fiction?

[Glenn E. Meyer]

It's well known that emotions need a physical and cognitive component. Just doing exercise or injecting a drug that alters bodily responses isn't enough.

Studies show that simulation and FOF training are the most efficacious as you need the cognitive component also if you really want stress.

Just physical stress can cause performance to increase a touch and then decrease. But the modern training research says you need the realistic stress component.

Most civilian gun fights (as compared to military) probably aren't going to have extreme physical exhaustion as a component.

[xMINORxTHREATx]

"Most civilian gun fights (as compared to military) probably aren't going to have extreme physical exhaustion as a component."

I understand that, I was hoping that by doing these workouts immediately before shooting I would get an adrenaline rush or be shaky or something along those lines, but all that happened was I was out of breath (which may have SOME training advantages)

[Jim March]

About eight times in my life I've been close enough to death to have the whole world "slow down" and other really weird stuff go on. What I tend to call an "overdrive" state. It's saved my bacon at least some of those times.

You *cannot* simulate it. Trust me. Ain't no way.

In my personal experience, it is NOT just a normal adrenaline dump!!!

Fine motor skills are *retained*, contrary to a lot of what you'll read. (I know this for a fact because six of those cases happened while piloting motorcycles, in which I was able to use throttle, brake and clutch with my hands perfectly.) Emotions go flat. But I could still make moral judgements, based on the one such case that was (more or less) "combat related". (Quotes because they backed down.)

It's not AT ALL the same as "berzerker rage". I hit *that* once at age 12, swore never ever again. Absolutely horrible, that...and a real good way to get killed. The whole "watch your six" concept goes flying out the window on fire with burning crap taped to it's butt. Ghaaa. No. Bad idea. Don't ever go into a fight full of rage. Ever.

Anyways.

In the correct "overdrive" state, it's triggered by a threat to human life - seven times it was mine, once it was somebody else's out of those eight. Either is OK. Takes under a second to get into it, the "peak" will last between five and thirty seconds tops, then you "crash" afterwards for at least five minutes. When you look at the speed, severity and "peakiness" of this rise/peak/crash cycle and compare it to any other known drug, you become very VERY afraid of screwing around with this for kicks or even practice. Makes crack cocaine look mild as hell, whatever it is that's doing all this (likely some sort of cocktail). It is nothing whatsoever to play with!!!

You CAN recycle rote muscle memory while in that state...in other words, something you've done a bajillion times and can do well, you'll be able to do better. Your muscle memory drills aren't thrown out. If they were I wouldn't have been able to pitch a 450lb motorcycle near-sideways at 40mph in the rain and pull back out of it 4ft to the right to dodge a car. Or do any number of other really intense stuff on two wheels . So yeah, by all means keep your shooting practice up, your draw-and-fire drills (unloaded if you don't have access to your own range or some nearby empty wilderness), etc.

But...the "add stress for realism" movement...yeah, I don't think so. There ain't NO SAFE WAY you could simulate the stress I've seen.

No way in hell.

[war_elephant]

In the police academy we take the recruits 6 at a time, for a brief run, about 1/2 mile. On the return, we have them sprint the last 100 yards and then right to firing line to shoot. We also have instructors yell at them while they are shooting.
Now a word of caution. DO NOT try this without a well trained instructor. SAFETY first. Do NOT unholster to fire until you are on the firing line and it is safe to do so. Also make sure you are in good physical condition. :barf:

Dont just have someone scream at you, while you are shooting. This is a PLANNED exercise, have instructor give some thought to this, maybe 2 targets at 20 yards, spaced about 10 feet apart. 2 rounds at each target, and then repeat.
Other than being shot at, this is about the best stress inducer I know of. You can vary this by using barricades or different positions. Speed is NOT the key here, ACCURACY is. Take you time and make your shots count. The more you do these type of drills, the better/faster you will shoot.

[GUNSITE]

There is no substitution for the thought/stress of someone trying to kill you in plain language. I've seen guys with weapons in their hands trembling during searching/building entries, that kind of stress can't be duplicated in any simulator, or training scenarios.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

While the real deal is hard to duplicate, I wonder why most critical incident and fighting services do realistic simulations and the research supports that folks who go through such do better in the real deal?

Also, those who went through such - usually say it aided them.

There is science behind this as well as anecdotes.

[Slopemeno]

Try a first season of USPSA competition in front of the "Peanut Gallery"

[ChuckS]

Gunsite said:

There is no substitution for the thought/stress of someone trying to kill you in plain language. I've seen guys with weapons in their hands trembling during searching/building entries, that kind of stress can't be duplicated in any simulator, or training scenarios.

Well said.

But I've wondered if "cross-training" would help and how much.

By cross-training I mean doing other adrenaline activities such as
bungy jumping, sky/scuba diving, rappelling, rock climbing, white water rafting, even big game hunting, etc. All provides an adrenaline rush and requires action and decision making under stressful situations. There is physical exertion and a time limiting element with the dynamics of varied and changing hazards.


Would there be a benefit? Your thoughts?

[booker_t]

Hire me to stand next to you at the range. Before each course of fire, you let me throw a few haymakers at your jaw and ribs.

I charge $250/hr for these specialized services. A small investment into something that may save your life one day.

Edged weapons and waterboarding is extra. Inquire for further details.

[xMINORxTHREATx]

Jim March, the "over drive" mode I have experienced as well, ironically also on a motorcycle. I'm not really wanting to get into it that far, I don't want to become numb to that level. Just keep myself on my toes.


Glenn E. Meyer,
The "realistic simulations" I went through in the Army really did help me. Not too long after I got back from AT one year there was a big accident on my construction site. Part of a wall that the masonry crew was putting up collapsed inward and 13 people were on the other side of it. I went into this blank state where the only thing I could think of was my CLS (combat life saver) training.

I'm hoping to keep this level retention with firearms. Now that I mention it, I probably should take a refresher course on my med stuff soon, too.

[Don P]

Stress. I would say that the best you can get "without" some one shooting back would be IDPA, USPSA, STEEL CHALLENGE.
All 3 are competition shooting and IDPA is all geared around self defense.
It's amazing what the sound of the "BEEP" will do to a shooter at the line.

[xMINORxTHREATx]

IDPA huh. I'm going to check into that right.... now

[Dwight55]

Minor Threat, . . . if you are a "competetive" sort of person, . . . then the competition can simulate some of it, . . . but only up to a point.

I have been through the "real deal" a few times, . . . and no two of them were the same. The first time, . . . I had a script down as far as what to do under "X" situation, . . . "X" happened, . . . I executed per script, . . . when the smoke died down, . . . I was basically normal a couple minutes later.

If you go seriously into a "role playing" competition, . . . where you immerse yourself in the persona of the shooter in IDPA type shooting, . . . you'll feel it coming as you step up to the starting line.

The key is to trick youself into believing "YOU" are the one in this situation, . . . gotta get out, . . . gotta get out, . . . do it right, . . . do it right, . . . hurry, . . . hurry, . . .

Again, . . . it's not the same, . . . but it will absolutely help. It is the driving force behind FOF, . . . role playing, . . . scenarios, . . . etc. Making it as believable (in your MIND) as possible is why the military goes through such drawn out and hyped up war games.

Getting into a small team type paint ball competition may also help you.

May God bless,
Dwight

[xMINORxTHREATx]

I would love to get a few people and buy some Delta 68 pistols and do some scenarios. Problem is finding people who are interested to do it, in my area.

[Don P]

I think paint ball would not be the best choice for training.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Minor - you started an excellent thread. I see you are in Cincinatti?

How about TDI - http://www.tdiohio.com/.

Never been there but I met one of their instructors who seems a competent guy and well centered.

Here's an IDPA link for Ohio. = http://www.defensivepistol.org/

Good luck.

[Bartholomew Roberts]

I was actually just having a similar discussion with another TFL member in a different thread.

There was an interesting line of thought in that thread that I thought relevant to this one:

You wrote
Quote:
You've got to create a stressful situation first before people can work on remaining calm during one.

But that is simply not true. Creating a stressful environment is ONE way to help people stay calm during stressful events. Think outside the box, what are other ways to train people to stay calm? I've had my men do "mental rehearsals" and visualization exercises before live fire events. They called it "woosa" time (from the Bad Boyz movies) but it worked. Relaxing speeds up performance.

I thought this made an excellent point that mindset and remaining calm are something that can be trained on almost 24/7. The only place I would disagree with it is to say that it seems to me that many people benefit from "stress innoculation" style training, so at some level it seems that people need to have the level of stress increased.

To me it seems that it is much like any other type of training, if your training is entirely within your comfort zone, you probably aren't getting the most value out of the time you spend. It seems to me that pushing the boundaries to see where your calm starts to break down is an important aspect of training and mindset.

[booker_t]

Interesting dichotomy.

In training, we're striving to artificially create a genuine fight or flight response, to a level that degrades performance and cognitive function.

But through training, we try to also give ourselves the tools to handle stressful situations, so that response is moderated, allowing good judgement and physical performance as if the external stressors were not present.

Two efforts that are diametrically opposed on the one hand, yet intimately related on the other.

[Jimro]

You don't want stress in your training, you want to train your mind to deal with stress.

Stress will not make you faster or more accurate. Stress will make you a functionally retarded version of yourself.

In the military we have had some success using "hollywood explosions" during training to provide stressors to participants. I don't know how much of an option that is for you. But the goal for that training is to "up armor" the brain to avoid PTSD, not to increase performance under stressful situations. By making training look and feel like combat, Soldiers and Marines have a reference point in their brain to place combat when it actually happens, in theory lowering the rates of PTSD among veterans.

http://vox.fastcompany.com/1696703/h...ts-laser-explo

http://www.military.com/entertainmen...arine-training

Your best bet is to practice relaxation techniques and visualize the successful outcome of your training. It is free, and will help you calm yourself when you DO get an adrenaline dump from stress. Trust me, when the fecal matter hits the oscillating cooling device your body will default to it's lowest level of training, so if you train to be calm, deliberate, and smooth, that is how you will perform.

Jimro

[Jimro]

In training, we're striving to artificially create a genuine fight or flight response, to a level that degrades performance and cognitive function.

No, in training we are trying to master skills that we can use in "fight/flight/freeze" situation. Because fighting and fleeing are two good options when it comes to conflict, the option that we don't want to happen is "freeze". We want to AVOID losing cognitive function.

Running away is a completely legitimate option. I mean really, who WANTS to get in a gunfight? Training is just building the tools into your toolbag to respond to bad situation.

But what if the bad situation is coming across a stabbing victim on your walk home from work? Freezing in that instance is a normal reaction for most people, if you remain calm you can call 911 on your cellphone, begin to deliver first aid, etc.

Training to deal with stress isn't just about guns.

Jimro

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I think we are talking at slight cross purposes.

1. The idea of stress training is to bring people up to a point that can induce a freeze or panic flight. But folks can learn abilities that can automatically switch in to avoid these nonproductive responses. Not that a rationally decided freeze or run isn't useful. It's the nonrational ones that are not useful.

Repetition of such allows the person to know that they can function and get through or avoid the automatic nonuseful response. Techniques to reduce stress during the incident can be taught.

2. About PTSD, that takes a bit of time to develop and diagnose, so if someone uses it for an immediate response, that's incorrect. It's not the immediate response if that was meant. However, there is evidence that training in stress reduction can aid in processing the event successfully and reducing the later onset of PTSD. Dealing with actual PTSD takes some form of therapy - usually in the cognitive behavioral paradigms. Interestingly, the popular immediate Critical Incident Stress Debriefing isn't that useful

[WANT A LCR 22LR]

Don P
"" I think paint ball would not be the best choice for training. ""

Because why? I'd think it would offer good training or at least some fun. ( I've never tried it though )


On another note, while shooting isn't involved, how about auto racing to give yourself some stressful situations?( sports car or oval track not drag ) On a smaller scale there is something called Autocross / Solo 2. This is where a small road race course is set up in a large parking lot and cars run one at a time. Speeds are sub 60 mph so all you need is any safe car and a helmet. What is important here is that you must go from sitting in the line to full on for about a minute then back to waiting you turn, no warm up laps, you must go bang right now. This rapid transition to full on seems what you are looking for.

Or if that isn't possible, some sports car tracks offer driving classes from basic high end street driving ( no not how to use a turn signal but how to_realy_ drive a car ) to full on under pressure anti terrorism barrier crashing / evasive maneuvers / PITing the car in front of you. ( I did this one )

Or how about a video game that gets things going?