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Old December 24, 2007, 04:21 PM   #26
STLRN
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I think a light makes you the one easy to target. Flashlight on guns are only if you are going against someone unarmed, and I mean without so much as a club. In short, basically a dumb idea IMHO.
Outside if you left it on for extended periods of time, than maybe. I know it has been tested in the shoot house during training time and time again with simunitions. When entering a darken room or structor, the light is over powering and people who would shoot back are normally blinded or dazzled by it.

If you are strobing it while you move, you also tend to give them vertigo and loose perspective on angles to shoot back.
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Old December 24, 2007, 05:24 PM   #27
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Outside if you left it on for extended periods of time, than maybe. I know it has been tested in the shoot house during training time and time again with simunitions. When entering a darken room or structor, the light is over powering and people who would shoot back are normally blinded or dazzled by it.
Sounds just like guys that go to karate and then talk about how they can handle any street tough they run into beacuse they KNOW how it would all go down in their own mind. Real life can be different.

A good friend of mine, a blackbelt (and also a cop BTW), wanted to show me how I could not hold him in a head lock. Well, I showed him that I COULD hold him in a headlock. Now I am a pretty strong guy but it was admittedly an effort to keep hold of him. All he could say afterwards was that I "cheated" because I worked around back behind and to the side of him in such a way that none of his techniques were successful (he tried at least 3 different methods if memory serves). He said how that in a "real street" situation he would be held in such a way that his techniques would always work for him. I just pointed out to him that fighters don't give a damn about what he expects them to do, and that in a real situation I would have allowed myself to hold on tighter and ACTUALLY CHOKE HIM, but I had to avoid that with him. Anyway, you remind me of my friend! Take that anyway you you wish, but remember he is my friend so it isn't meant to be an insult.
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Old December 24, 2007, 05:35 PM   #28
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ssilicon,

There is a big difference between a sport meant for competitions, and training for combat under the watchful eyes of instructors that have forgotten more about gun fighting then most of us will ever learn. One constant thing across most training schools is that white light used properly is a tactical advantage.
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Old December 24, 2007, 06:18 PM   #29
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ssilicon

I am active duty US Marine, a combat shooting instructor and have involved on two way ranges several times against people trying to kill me and my fellow Marines. I don't think anything, I was relaying what I have seen dozens of times before in shoot houses when using lights against other with simunitions. The few times I have done it for real, I couldn't ask the people the receiving end of the lights what they thought, either because of not speaking their language and the only reason I didn't shoot them off the bat, was they were covering their eyes with their hands and I saw no reason to or they were unable to talk afterwards.
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Old December 24, 2007, 07:28 PM   #30
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Light with the gun is one of the most stupid act. You will quitely telling the BG in the dark that "Hey guy! can you see me, I am here shoot at me now".
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Old December 24, 2007, 07:52 PM   #31
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I agree. In instances where you are trying to obtain complete stealth a flashlight would be just hazardous to your health. Now if I am on the team coming through your door at 2am in the morning with my buddies while you are asleep then yes a 100+ lumens in your face will get the exact reaction I want. A homeowner might want to wait before turning that flashlight on till he knows its the right time to get the upperhand. Its only a tool and yes you would be stupid to incorprate it in the wrong scenario at the wrong time.
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Old December 24, 2007, 08:35 PM   #32
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ok michigun

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Light with the gun is one of the most stupid act. You will quitely telling the BG in the dark that "Hey guy! can you see me, I am here shoot at me now".
thats a pretty damn stupid statement. im sure youd just as soon not know who you shot in the dark.

for combat, its a great thing. they already know we are on the way once the door goes down. my surefire was a very useful tool in combat. you just need to know how to use it properly in a HD scenario. i doubt many people have NVGs and a PEQ on their home defence weapon, but a surefire, if used properly and with the right timing, would be useful. chances are your not gonna sneak up on the perp. if its dark, youll fumble over things, so there goes the "stealth" and not lettin the BG hear you. also, you dont have the light on the whole time, you listen for where he is, make your way there, and spotlight him. its far a stupid act in the right hands.
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Old December 24, 2007, 10:43 PM   #33
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You will quitely telling the BG in the dark that "Hey guy! can you see me, I am here shoot at me now".
Except for the fact that unless you are out in the middle of no where in a new moon, both people can see the shadows, only the bad guys knows for sure that you aren't on his side. While you are trying to figure out if that's an intruder, or just your dumb teenager trying to get a cup of water.

Hope you make the right choice.
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Old December 24, 2007, 11:25 PM   #34
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I am active duty US Marine, a combat shooting instructor and have involved on two way ranges several times against people trying to kill me and my fellow Marines. I don't think anything, I was relaying what I have seen dozens of times before in shoot houses when using lights against other with simunitions. The few times I have done it for real, I couldn't ask the people the receiving end of the lights what they thought, either because of not speaking their language and the only reason I didn't shoot them off the bat, was they were covering their eyes with their hands and I saw no reason to or they were unable to talk afterwards."
Well then, as a Marine you certainly should be familiar with the vlaue of cover and concealment. Carying a beacon of light is just about as far away from, and in fact has an entirely OPPOSITE effect of concealment. I don't see the point of continuing to argue it. I'm glad that you and your brother devil dogs came out on top. I just am convinced, that in defense of my home, holding a flashlight while unknown assailant(s) are in my home makes me more of a target then them. And if the bad guys came into my home with flashlights, I think my 12 gauge would make quick work of whoever holds it. But then my home is familiar to me so I know where I'm going etc. I haven't had to test that yet but my money is on not being the beacon in lighthouse.

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Old December 25, 2007, 12:40 AM   #35
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I've never needed it, but I think I would blink mine on and off and keep moving.

If you can see the attacker, then he can see you.
I would love to see all these people in the "on and off" school do that in real life. Once you turn your light on your night vision is gone. You turn it off and try to move around you are going to be blind. Seeing is always going to be better than not seeing.
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Old December 25, 2007, 06:52 AM   #36
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I would love to see all these people in the "on and off" school do that in real life. Once you turn your light on your night vision is gone. You turn it off and try to move around you are going to be blind. Seeing is always going to be better than not seeing.
I have done it several times, it is pretty easy. Light doesn't change your short term memory of what is several feet in front of you.
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Old December 25, 2007, 06:56 AM   #37
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It is only a beacon if people are several hundred feet away from you, up close it is too blinding for them to see.

Human reaction to when they are are sitting in the dark and something that bright in shined in their vicinity is to squint and cover their eyes. I have seen guys with rifles and pistols time and time again, not be able to effectively get off a shot when a light was turned on in their vicinity. Go ahead and believe you do what every, however you aren't going to.
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Old December 25, 2007, 09:41 AM   #38
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It is only a beacon if people are several hundred feet away from you, up close it is too blinding for them to see.

Human reaction to when they are are sitting in the dark and something that bright in shined in their vicinity is to squint and cover their eyes. I have seen guys with rifles and pistols time and time again, not be able to effectively get off a shot when a light was turned on in their vicinity. Go ahead and believe you do what every, however you aren't going to.
Yes, I will. And a light is a beacon at 20 feet as much or more than it is at 120 feet. With a light like that, they see you coming long before you see them in many instances. Hell, why do you think SpecOps use night vision instead of flashlights? Is it because they want to waste more money and have stuff hanging in front of their face? Or is it because it let's them SEE WITHOUT BEING SEEN? We OWN the night my friend.

Though I was never an infantryman I am ex-military. I bring this up for this point... As I think back to those many years ago I realize how many notions and beliefs I had that I have long since come to a better understanding of. What I am trying to say, is there are often adjendas beyond what you may be aware, and methods are sometimes optimised for those. Stay alive and best of luck.
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Old December 25, 2007, 09:51 AM   #39
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Hell, why do you think SpecOps use night vision instead of flashlights? Is it because they want to waste more money and have stuff hanging in front of their face? Or is it because it let's them SEE WITHOUT BEING SEEN? We OWN the night my friend.
You don't know what you are talking about SF have lights on their rifles. I have worked with enough ODA and task force guys to know that for sure. Where do you think the first surefire lights entered the inventory? You don't clear buildings on googles, they give you poor depth perception and throw off your angles of fire.

You use goggles for some situations may be like clearing on objective during an assault or on a static OP/LP, but not when you go into buildings or after you enter the kill zone of an ambush, you go on white light. When you are on goggles, you need to have a laser pointer to exploit there usage and most people don't go nights vision sights on weapons except for belt feeds.
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Old December 25, 2007, 11:01 AM   #40
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well i am in the Infantry, and i know all the Recon and MARSOC guys have M4s with the front grips with the lights built into them. clearing houses with NVGs on SUCKS. the 7Bravos were just plain heavy and awkward. the 14Charlies arnt as bad, you only use one eye with them, but they are still awkward, and the focus on them sucks. for nighttime patrols outside, they work OK. but for CQC, id take my surefire over NVGs.
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Old December 25, 2007, 04:11 PM   #41
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For my circumstance i am ready to add a light to a gun. I do not need to flash it on and off. I can navigate my home fully in the dark without bumping anything. It is STRICTLY a SAFETY feature as is the safety on my gun. When my gun goes up in the RTF position it is still on "safety". I am not going to flip it to fire ready until I have my target in my sights. A pressure switched light can be lit milliseconds before i trip the safety to be sure I have an intruder in front of me.
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Old December 26, 2007, 09:34 AM   #42
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Lights

Just my in-experienced opinion. I thinks Law Enforcement has a need for lights searching for thugs in the brush, or clearing a warehouse. However, they have radios, back up, and myriad other things a civilian does not have. When a civilian needs a pistol, he need it "right now!". He also needs a pistol that handles well. I understand about 80% of the time he needs it to handle a conflict within 3 feet. Lights preclude this - they un-do everything engineered into pistol handling. As an aside I have hunted all my life. Many, many times returning after dark. I almost never needed or wanted a light. I always had one that I shined in a circle to keep from getting shot by other hunters though. But for movement, they always restrict your vision to the cone of light. You are night blind outside of that. I traveled better without one even in the woods. If I was in a situation and need a light I would prefer one in the off hand. In most situations I envision. I don't think I'd turn a light on until I knew what I was going to light up. I would not wander around with a light on. In short for a civilian there's a place for a light - just not hung on your pistol. As I said, just my opinion that is NOT based on experience in conflict.
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Old December 26, 2007, 04:36 PM   #43
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Lights are our friend in a self defense situation. An armed bad guy is going to shoot at a shadow or a light, it doesn't make any difference. The point is that YOU, as a responsible gun owner, MUST know your target and what's behind your target before pulling the trigger.

Is the target a threat or a mistaken identity (teenager, cop, whatever).

Is the target armed? If so, with what?

Does the target have a hostage?

What's behind the target?

What's in front of the target?

Another advantage is blinding a target. EVERYBODY reacts the same way when a bright light is pointed at their eyes; they either put their hands over their face, turn their head, or close their eyes for at least a second. That buys valuable time for the person behind the light to determine the correct course of action.

I have a light on the gun and a separate tactical light. I can determine when the light is on or off with a small motion of my finger.

If anything, it's foolish to try to defend yourself in the dark when you refuse to use a light.
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Old December 26, 2007, 04:49 PM   #44
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I know that lots of new handguns come with light rails, and there are about 100 different ways to mount a flashlight to an AR-15, but I just won't do it. To me, pointing a gun at something and then turning on the light to see what it is violates too many safety rules. What do you think?
I think you either have no idea what a proper flashlight will do or no idea how to use it. You do NOT need to point a surefire at someone to light them up. It is bright enough to light the majority of a room simply by pointing it at the floor or ceiling. You will be much faster and more accurate with a weapon mounted light than without. And it is pretty darn hard to hold a flashlight in one hand and operate your AR15 effectively with the other.

There is a reason that SWAT teams and military units are using weapon mounted lights.
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Old December 26, 2007, 07:29 PM   #45
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They said to angle the gun down at a 45 degree, and you'll see just fine without sweeping any friendlies.
Exactly! There is enough bounce of the light (with a good quality light like a surefire) to light up the whole room.

About a year or two ago, a home owner here in Massachusetts returned early from a trip. I guess he was tired, because he set off his own alarm. He heard an intruder, fired on him, and hit him. Unfortunately, the intruder was a police officer. Sure would have been a good thing if he'd had a weapon-mounted light and had identified his target before firing...
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Old December 26, 2007, 08:36 PM   #46
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Lights such as a Surefire are a good thing for identifying a preceived threat and shooting if necessary. A light in the hand though is much more versatile then one mounted on a gun. There are several techniques for shooting with a flashlight in your support hand. I would recommend those over a light on a handgun.
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Old December 27, 2007, 12:00 AM   #47
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What's all this nonsense with the light being a beacon and walking around with the light on? [sarcasm] You really think running around with the light on constantly is a bad idea? you suppose, Einstein?[/sarcasm].

You get a boogie monster silhouette in your sights, flash your light to check what it is and fire if it is indeed said boogie monster. Done in 1-2 seconds. You don't go waving the bloody thing around like you're a 5 year old scared of the dark going to the bathroom at night. There's no realistic place dark enough that you have to use the light to search. The light is there to blind/identify your target after it's already in your sights.

Ridiculous... I can't believe I jumped into this one.
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Old December 27, 2007, 10:46 AM   #48
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Quite a range of responses.

I think in the world of self-defense, you need to identify your threat, if that means a brief ID with the light before you move, then shoot, it seems wise. How you use a light is piviotal and can in some cases give you an advantage (if bright enough) to temporarily blind the opponent and misdirect your location (gotta move). A deer in the headlights can be good.

A weapons mounted light on a long gun can be handy, and often just a good tail cap flashlight and a Harrie's (or other practiced style) technique is nice combo.
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