The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old December 23, 2007, 05:56 PM   #1
rbrgs
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 10, 2007
Posts: 163
Lights on Guns?

I know that lots of new handguns come with light rails, and there are about 100 different ways to mount a flashlight to an AR-15, but I just won't do it. To me, pointing a gun at something and then turning on the light to see what it is violates too many safety rules. What do you think?
rbrgs is offline  
Old December 23, 2007, 06:05 PM   #2
hogdogs
Staff In Memoriam
 
Join Date: October 31, 2007
Location: Western Florida panhandle
Posts: 11,069
I am in a different boat... Until recently I would have just as soon shot it out in the dark inside my home... Outside in public I see no need for a light as I have no risk of shooting my own. I am considering a pressure switch activated light for my 500 mossberg once i have a an auto loader for hunting. Until I can set aside the pump I would have to put on and remove the light each time it went from HD to hunting gun.
Brent
hogdogs is offline  
Old December 23, 2007, 06:22 PM   #3
bigghoss
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 15, 2006
Location: Pueblo, Colorado
Posts: 2,664
well I've cleared buildings in the dark without a light on my weapon and it sucks. the light drawing enemy fire isn't as big a problem as some people think because you use the momentary switch and only turn it on when you need it, you don't just turn it on and walk around with it on the whole time. my TLR-1 is bright enough to blind someone. I've also seen them used when you know a suspect is hiding somewhere to blind them while they come out and keep them from attacking you and forcing you to shoot.

it would be good to use it in conjunction with a handheld light and only use the weapon light when you are fairly certain someone is hiding somewhere and you need the gun ready
__________________
I don't collect guns, I accumulate them.
bigghoss is offline  
Old December 23, 2007, 06:23 PM   #4
EJJR
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 3, 2007
Posts: 153
Developing situational awareness and threat assessment skills aside, I feel there are def. situations where it is prudent to see what, or more importantly,who one may be forced to fire upon, before firing; even if family/bystanders are not a concern.

I can see how it could be a double edged sword though, depending on the actual light solution (ex. Is one printing as a target themselves or blinding a potential BG?), environment, etc...
__________________
Educate and inform the whole mass of the people... They are the only sure reliance for the preservation of our liberty. Thomas Jefferson

Want to learn how to shoot well? http://appleseedinfo.org/
EJJR is offline  
Old December 23, 2007, 07:14 PM   #5
rbrgs
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 10, 2007
Posts: 163
I do use a light in the dark, I just won't put it on my gun. My flashlight technique (which I actually practice at our club's biannual night shoot) involves a full size mag light on my offside shoulder. I don't clear buildings; if you have to, I'm not gonna say anything about that.
I just don't feel right about pointing the gun first, then turning on the light to see what it is.
rbrgs is offline  
Old December 23, 2007, 07:30 PM   #6
PPGMD
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 22, 2007
Posts: 348
It's best to be able to use both an off hand flashlight, and an on gun flashlight. An on gun flashlight is particularly helpful when the lead starts flying, you can fire faster, and more accurately with a gun on the light rail, then you can without.

But an offhand flashlight is better for searching.On long guns you can't use an off hand flashlight, you need it attached to the gun for all situations. For concealed carry lights on rails aren't practical though, due to the lack of holsters to accommodate different gun and light combinations. I carry a Surefire 6PL in a pocket when CCWing.

Also a target is still a threat until after you identify them as not being one. Most schools will teach you to keep your gun on target but your finger off the trigger while communicating and identifying possible intruders.

The four rules are great for the range and IPSC, but the rules are applied slightly differently when in a SD/HD situation.

Anyways I suggest you take the Surefire Low Light Operator class, it will change your opinion on how to use your flashlight in a combat environment.
PPGMD is offline  
Old December 23, 2007, 08:20 PM   #7
Tanzer
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 18, 2007
Posts: 884
I think that a tactical unit, with the duty of clearing a building or similar unit and going in as a team is trained enough to know when to use/not use a tactical light, so I leave that to their discretion. I personally do not think it would be of any advantage to me. I know my home better than anyone breaking into it, so I consider the darkness to be to my advantage. In my normal outside routine, I'll trust that my eyes are as adjusted to the darkness as any adversary, and since a tach light won't sit in a holster well, I wouldn't use it even if my 1911 did accomodate it. Heck, I don't even have night sights. I simply don't see myself in a situation that would require them. I don't see myself in a warehouse hiding behind a pillar, aiming at a BG who's hiding behind a 55 gallon drum. I can point shoot fairly well. I do however carry a small but effective flashlight.
__________________
Only the ignorant find ignorance to be bliss. Only those of us who know better will suffer from it.

Last edited by Tanzer; December 23, 2007 at 10:00 PM.
Tanzer is offline  
Old December 23, 2007, 08:30 PM   #8
hogdogs
Staff In Memoriam
 
Join Date: October 31, 2007
Location: Western Florida panhandle
Posts: 11,069
Let me say that for CC handgun situation out in public I see no need for a light. If i am attacked it will be at a firing range so close I will be at point and shoot rules. Not full sights no need to illuminate the target. In the HD situation I think I would like "one last chance" to verify my target as a BG not a groggy teenage child of mine that forgot or did not deem fit to reply when daddy goes in search of "FRIEND OR FOE". I can choose to shoot a shadow without a light so long it is obvious that it is not anywhere near the structural construction of anyone in my family. It is the possibility that the shadow may be near the same height and weight of my kids that would make me want to poke them with a light before covering the trigger. In my "search" of my home I opt not to use any light as not to draw my opponents attention prematurely. I try to decide when and where to engage my adversaries in life.
Brent
hogdogs is offline  
Old December 23, 2007, 09:28 PM   #9
James K
Member In Memoriam
 
Join Date: March 17, 1999
Posts: 24,383
Well, I was trained to use a light in the off hand, holding it in front, as well as up and away from me, on the theory that if a BG shot at the light, he might not hit me. Now, it seems that not only do people want to put lights on their guns, they want to hold the gun directly in front of their faces. If I am a BG, hiding in a big area like a warehouse, and feel I have nothing to lose, I will shoot at the light and the cop behind it will be in bad shape, as in dead. And please, I have used very bright lights in dark areas, and there is no such thing as a gun-mounted light so bright it will blind everyone anywhere in a big open area. Anyone who thinks otherwise just hasn't tried it. And anyone who thinks he can turn on a light and immediately spotlight the BG is out to lunch. He may be in front of you, or off to the side, or on a balcony, or behind a counter, or anywhere in the place; the chance of lighting him up first try is about nil.

In fact, my instructors pointed out that if possible to do so, it is best to simply turn on the regular lights. Your eyes might take a second to adjust, but so will the other guy's and with the area lit up you are on even terms. (You don't just switch on the lights and stay by the switch - you move as soon as you hit the switch.)

Jim
James K is offline  
Old December 23, 2007, 09:42 PM   #10
PPGMD
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 22, 2007
Posts: 348
The Felonious Encounters study found that having a light wasn't a liability, only in one case did the attacker fire at the light. The FBI method though sound is doesn't give you that much of an advantage over other methods when the light is used properly.

You are seriously under estimating the power of the small tactical light. The lithium powered lights are much more powerful then people give them credit for. You turn the light on identify, shoot and move.
PPGMD is offline  
Old December 23, 2007, 09:50 PM   #11
kgpcr
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 23, 2005
Posts: 955
I just dont need one. For my house my 12ga and 00buck need no light as i have night lights on
__________________
Colt King Cobra .357 Colt Anaconda .44mag
Springfield Armory .45 Double stack Loaded
XD40 service XD45 Taurus 617 .357mag
Smith M&P 40
kgpcr is offline  
Old December 23, 2007, 10:17 PM   #12
R1145
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 26, 2005
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 351
Long guns, yes...

...handguns, maybe...

In a low-light encounter, having a light on a long gun is an advantage. You're not using the light to search (Rule 2 in effect), just activating it briefly to illuminate a target (Rule 4).

I've never carried a handgun with a mounted light (our K-9 officers do, because their other hand holds the dog, right?), but I think a separate light would be more versatile.

Instead of a mounted tactical light, what about a prosthetic third arm to hold the light and still leave a hand free...?

Last edited by R1145; December 23, 2007 at 10:20 PM. Reason: added reference to Rule 4
R1145 is offline  
Old December 23, 2007, 11:27 PM   #13
woodland
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 26, 2001
Location: western wa.
Posts: 564
Hmmm. I have yet to see a techinique for using a long gun while holding a flashlight in one hand.
__________________
"There is no spoon..."
woodland is offline  
Old December 23, 2007, 11:35 PM   #14
Playboypenguin
Junior member
 
Join Date: February 27, 2006
Location: Great Pacific Northwest
Posts: 11,515
I find a firearm mounted light to be a big tactical disadvantage...especially when misused and left on full time in a low light situation.

Not only does the light immediatly give away your position to an unseen assailant, it also lets them know which direction you are facing.
Playboypenguin is offline  
Old December 23, 2007, 11:48 PM   #15
Reaperatm
Member
 
Join Date: April 19, 2007
Location: St. Louis MO
Posts: 40
Easy solution

You wanna know what the easy solution to pointing a gun at somebody with a light attached and not worry about accidently shooting them....KEEP YOUR FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER UNTIL YOU WISH TO FIRE YOUR WEAPON...case settled
__________________
A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. - John Stuart Mill
Reaperatm is offline  
Old December 24, 2007, 01:57 AM   #16
Thunderhawk88
Junior member
 
Join Date: January 14, 2007
Location: So. California, Desert style.
Posts: 745
I see no need for a light to be mounted on one of my handguns. I like the balance of my guns as they are, so IF I need a light, it'll be in my other hand.
Thunderhawk88 is offline  
Old December 24, 2007, 08:34 AM   #17
Caeser23
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 19, 2006
Posts: 242
90 lumens from my m3 is plenty of light to identify a threat in my home w/o pointing the gun directly at a burgler, those of you that think you have to aim the flashlight directly at the shadow to identify it obviously have never owned one.
Caeser23 is offline  
Old December 24, 2007, 09:11 AM   #18
Spade Cooley
Junior member
 
Join Date: June 24, 2007
Posts: 296
When its dark they can't see you. When they turn on the light they can see you. Why draw attention to yourself? I do not want anything that bulky on my gun.
Spade Cooley is offline  
Old December 24, 2007, 09:56 AM   #19
PPGMD
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 22, 2007
Posts: 348
Quote:
When its dark they can't see you. When they turn on the light they can see you. Why draw attention to yourself?
Except it's rarely that dark that neither person can see one another, instead you see a moving shadow, if it's a bad guy he knows that you are a threat, if it's a good person (just in the wrong place at the wrong time) how do you know without lighting them up?

Now if it's a bad guy where would you rather have your other hand, off fumbling with a flashlight, or on your gun allowing you to shoot more accurately, at a higher rate of fire? With a good pressure switch you can control when the light is turned on and when it isn't, or you can simply use an extended finger to work the controls.

Also most polymer guns balance well with a tac light on the rail.
PPGMD is offline  
Old December 24, 2007, 10:14 AM   #20
rampage841512
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 16, 2007
Location: Gardendale, Alabama
Posts: 665
Long gun, yes. Pistol, no. Just my opinion based on how I'd use them.
__________________
"What is play to the fool and the idiot is deadly serious to the man with the gun."
Walt Rauch,Combat Handguns, May '08
rampage841512 is offline  
Old December 24, 2007, 11:01 AM   #21
dixierifleman
Junior member
 
Join Date: November 30, 2006
Posts: 355
have you ever cleared a house using 7 Bravos? it sucks. i had a Surefire on my A4 before i got issued 14 Charlies and a PEQ15
dixierifleman is offline  
Old December 24, 2007, 11:10 AM   #22
Tanzer
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 18, 2007
Posts: 884
Quote:
Except it's rarely that dark that neither person can see one another
+1. True darkness, like you'd find in a cave, is rare. There is usually ambient light. Even deep in the woods.
Turning on the lights is a tough call. If you live alone or with just your spouse, that's one thing, but as someone else pointed out, you may have a sleep-walking teenager. Also, 98% of us will be somewhat excited/nervous. It all goes back to knowing yourself. I'm sticking with the "no light" tactic, it just works best for me.
__________________
Only the ignorant find ignorance to be bliss. Only those of us who know better will suffer from it.
Tanzer is offline  
Old December 24, 2007, 01:50 PM   #23
The Tourist
Junior member
 
Join Date: June 20, 2005
Posts: 2,348
I've never needed it, but I think I would blink mine on and off and keep moving.

If you can see the attacker, then he can see you.
The Tourist is offline  
Old December 24, 2007, 03:44 PM   #24
Stockton
Member
 
Join Date: December 22, 2007
Posts: 30
To each his/her own on weapons lights. Your individual/team training using them properly and as situation dictates should keep you from doing the right/wrong thing. Mil/Leo both prior and active service will carry the knowledge from their training in both like and dislikes. Home defense will take consideration on a individual level and things like kids, dogs,single or split level home, and a look into the mirror on your abilities. If, and, or buts..... are just that if you have never trained or gone full speed.
__________________
MAC
25TH ID/125TH SIG JTF-90 OUD
40TH BGDE/18TH CAV BRT
3RD ID/29BCT/1-184TH AA INF OIFIII
Stockton is offline  
Old December 24, 2007, 03:50 PM   #25
ssilicon
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 5, 2005
Posts: 459
Ask us what we think...

I think a light makes you the one easy to target. Flashlight on guns are only if you are going against someone unarmed, and I mean without so much as a club. In short, basically a dumb idea IMHO.
ssilicon is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:32 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2021 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Page generated in 0.06107 seconds with 8 queries