December 18, 2007, 10:24 PM | #1 |
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Empty Clip...or Aim?
I think you guys get the point just from the title. But i'll go over what i'm thinking any way. Vehicle situation specifically. I walk up to vehicle, suspect/driver fires rounds at me. Would it be smarter to return fire with the whole magazine, or would you be better served to take that extra second and aim while being shot at eventhough you are shooting through glass/steel and the bullet could be ricochet off course?
I'm not talking about a bad guy in house situation, mainly vehicle shoot out or car jacking ETA: I personally think it only takes one well aimed bullet to get any job done...maybe two if your pissed (rifle or pistol), thats why i carry a 1911 SA Champion and not a high-cap G21SF. but i'd like to hear your opinions, i was just watching a police training tape and it shows the officer emptying his Glock 17, and he kills the guy (approx 6-9 feet away) I KNOW ITS NOT CLIP, BUT I LOVE THE WORD
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December 18, 2007, 10:41 PM | #2 |
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IMO emptying a clip into the car could yield colateral damages by way of riccochets and overpenetration and i wouldnt recomend not aiming, unless you were very close to vehicle (a few feet) and able to just point your weapon at the BG.
give em a double tap or just a few rounds to be sure you get at least one on target, it might not look good in court if you put 15 rounds in a vehicle and kill a BG and he only fired 2 or 3 times. |
December 18, 2007, 11:19 PM | #3 |
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Always aim unless you are blind. In that case, listen, point and then empty the mag.
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December 18, 2007, 11:21 PM | #4 |
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Learn to point shoot.
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December 18, 2007, 11:35 PM | #5 |
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Its important to understand that there is no "one shot-stop gurentee" with any handgun cartridge, even a .45. Your best bet is to place your shots into 'key areas' of the threat.
Unless your in the military and the situation calls for it, you should never need to just empty the magazine blindly to supress an enemy. As a civillian you will need to be able to shoot fast and hard especially upclose, but you had better keep those rounds on target as best as you can. A well trained shooter can keep all his /her shots on target at moderate ranges about as fast as they can pull the trigger. This can be done with either point shooting or using the sights or a mix of both. You should always see what you need to see if your going to shoot. Just banging off rounds is a liabilty. |
December 18, 2007, 11:37 PM | #6 |
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Your plan, stated or otherwise, should never be to resolve the situation by emptying the magazine (not clip). The plan is to stop the threat, and do so by acting in a resonable manner, which of course can be deadly force if the situation warrants it. Spray and pray just ain't it. Use the sights, learn to aquire a flash sight picture, learn to point shoot, whatever, just train to put the lead where it is needed.
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December 18, 2007, 11:41 PM | #7 |
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Ok guys, clarifying here. I am within 10 feet, not "spraying and praying" general direction shooting. Nothing behind the target. Shots have already been fired at me, lethal force is more than warranted. My questions is do i take that extra second to line up my sights (while being shot at) for an accurate shot, or i do i point shoot?
P.S. I KNOW ITS NOT CLIP, BUT I LOVE THE WORD SO LEAVE ME ALONE (don't make me give you the reason, for it is too dirty for here at the TFL ), im not looking to get grilled, im looking for answers/opinions to a scenario
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December 18, 2007, 11:45 PM | #8 |
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At 10' you should be able to point shoot accurate shots all day. If it were me at that distance I would PS but I would be looking through my sights and seeing them in my peripheral vision while maintaining a hard target focus. If the distance was doubled I'd pick up the sights just a tad more. Doubled again (40') Im using my sights. You've got to go out and practice to see what works for you.
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December 18, 2007, 11:52 PM | #9 |
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i can pointshoot well at 10', most can. But would I be able to make an accurate enough shot fast enough before getting hit myself. Remember, i am in the open, the driver has "some" cover sitting in his car. I would also be running back to the squad car at the same time for cover. But would it be wiser to slow/stop and line up my sights, or just point shoot while running to the car for cover?
The whole reason i ask, is because i saw a video on it, and i'm not sure if what the officer did was right, but for him it worked. Obviously, it will most likely never happen to me, but it could. Biggest rule, all suspects are armed until proven otherwise
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December 19, 2007, 12:02 AM | #10 | |||
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[QUOTE]
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
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December 19, 2007, 01:19 AM | #11 |
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Focus on target, bring the gun up into your view and fire. You won't need to align the sights at that distance and it won't matter anyway.
Fire as many shots as you need to fire in order to stop the threat.
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December 19, 2007, 01:37 AM | #12 |
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Empty Clip...or Aim?
Both, and rapidly!
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December 19, 2007, 03:22 AM | #13 |
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+1 on learn to point shoot!
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December 19, 2007, 08:13 AM | #14 |
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This is an excellent example of a why to learn to point shoot.
At 6'-10', shots already fired, you don't have a extra second to find the sights, you need to hit the BG immmediatly, if only to spoil his aim. Regardless of what internet commandos say about using sights, you will focus on the threat (lets not even talk about tunnel vision or sensory exclusion). I can put rounds where I look, and 10' is inside my head shot envelope; draw and watch the rounds hit. In answer to the specific question, what you'll do is return fire immediately without even looking for the sights, the question is whether you just spray and pray, or know how to point shoot and get hits. |
December 19, 2007, 09:06 AM | #15 | |
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Quote:
You shoot to stop the threat. It my require one shot, two, six, emptying the MAGAZINE (I know it is MAGAZINE, I love the proper terminology), and maybe even reloading with a new magazine. You may accomplish it with unaimed contact shooting, point shooting, or aimed shooting. The notion that we can determine the firing solution of such a hypothetical future situation is a bit naive. It is unlikely that the situation in which a shooting will occur will be overly simple like the example. You may need aimed shooting of ever shot you have, but be unable to accomplish the task for any number of reasons. Last edited by Double Naught Spy; December 20, 2007 at 07:57 AM. Reason: Corrected for cold medicine induced grammatical errors |
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December 19, 2007, 09:42 AM | #16 |
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First priority is to get off the X! Sighted fire or point shooting doesn't much if you're dead. Return fire any which way you can while moving to the nearest available cover, and then you can assess the situation once you get there.
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December 19, 2007, 09:46 AM | #17 |
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Look at what happened in NYC. Cops panic-sprayed at a car. 50 rounds fired. Only 21 hit the car.
29 went on to hit occupied houses and a train station. Where do you think your missed shots go? Do you have any idea of the range and barrier penetration of your chosen caliber? AIM. |
December 19, 2007, 10:12 AM | #18 |
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I submit that the premis is flawed:
It is not all or nothing; too much time sighting or too much time missing. Sighted fire can come awfully quickly, measured in sub-secoind increments. Unsighted fire can be accurate enough, measured in "minute of target area."
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December 19, 2007, 01:55 PM | #19 |
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I believe you always fire 2-3 shots and then assess to see if additional shots are needed. Let me suggest three reasons that I think emptying an entire magazine is bad:
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December 19, 2007, 01:55 PM | #20 |
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Precisely what Double Naught Spy said.
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December 19, 2007, 03:00 PM | #21 |
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Move laterally and diagonally toward cover/concealment and learn to point shoot / return fire.
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December 19, 2007, 05:53 PM | #22 |
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Be sure you empty the gun and any spare magazines before assessing the situation, that way the BG in the back seat with the shotgun, has a chance to shoot back when you are empty.
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December 19, 2007, 06:05 PM | #23 |
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Seeing as how I am responsible for every bullet I fire, I will definitely be aiming my shot/s.
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December 19, 2007, 06:36 PM | #24 |
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Another scenario thread! Sorry this ones closed!
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December 19, 2007, 08:05 PM | #25 |
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I would get off a few well placed rounds while moving to cover.
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