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Old December 15, 2007, 08:44 PM   #26
Mannlicher
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Tom
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so, now that its all said and done, what do you think you would do if you were there?
honestly, part of me says i would engage the shooter and to heck with personal safety. other part of me thinks self preservation would be the way to go
Sometimes, engaging IS self preservation. I guess you have to be there to really know what you would do.
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Old December 15, 2007, 09:15 PM   #27
ROWG FROM FT WORTH
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engage the shooter

TEXASSEARAY this ROWG is with you all the way.
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Old December 15, 2007, 10:22 PM   #28
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Sometimes, engaging IS self preservation. I guess you have to be there to really know what you would do.
Absolutely.
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Old December 15, 2007, 10:26 PM   #29
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I would go after him. Marines run towards the gunfire not away from it.
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Old December 16, 2007, 10:43 AM   #30
KC135
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Fans

Were not on our birds, and yes, the water did cause a lot of smoke on takeoff Jeff. I did get a ride in a fan bird last year--quick and quiet.

J-57s--Loud?? Not near as loud as a B-36 on takeoff with 6 turning and four burning.

The problem with an active shooter has been well explored. If I cannot retreat with my charges, I will seek cover and wait, engaging if necessary.
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Old December 16, 2007, 11:08 AM   #31
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Marines run towards the gunfire not away from it.
So if you are caught between two different groups shooting at one another, which way do you run?
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Old December 16, 2007, 11:46 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by 4V50 Gary
Two concerns.

First, are you sure the person who you think is the perpetrator the actual perpetrator or is (s)he an off duty cop who is responding to the gunfire? Could (s)he also be a CCW holder like yourself?

Second, how do you ensure that you're not shot by the uniformed or off duty cops?

Better be sure of your target and then expected to be drawn upon by the police.
Come on Gary. You are TFL staff and you don't think someone could make the distinction between a crazed gunman and the police? Last I check, police don't go around gunning down people indicriminately. If someone is approaching the shooter cautiously with a weapon drawn while moving people to safety, I'm sure most people would think you were an off duty cop.

I do not advocate simply blasting away in the bad guy's general direction. There is way too much collateral damage that could occur. If I did not have a clear shot or could not get close enough, I would try and get closer or wait for the bad guy to reload and rush him.

As for the legal ramifications, I am prepared to deal with them. Of course I would get any loved ones with me to safety and I would not go rushing in like a sheep to slaughter. You guys seem to make it all or nothing here. Like I mentioned earlier, approach cautiously and look for a good shot. There will be plenty of witnesses and most malls have good surveillance systems.

As for avoiding malls, that is a little hard since I own a business in one. Malls are great places to shop since you have multiple stores in one location. You have to consider the fact that crazed gunmen can attack any crowded areas. Unless you plan on living like a hermit, just live your life and be prepared to act should the need ever arise.
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Old December 16, 2007, 12:11 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by KC135
Were not on our birds, and yes, the water did cause a lot of smoke on takeoff Jeff. I did get a ride in a fan bird last year--quick and quiet.

J-57s--Loud?? Not near as loud as a B-36 on takeoff with 6 turning and four burning.
No doubt!

I did some time at Hill AFB back when they still had a Reserve unit of 105 Thuds. I believe that was the loudest single engine jet I've ever heard. The F16's screeched and tore at the air, but those Thuds literally thundered. On rare occasion, they'd do a four-ship formation takeoff rather than the normal two-ship. Holy moly, everything on base shook.

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The problem with an active shooter has been well explored. If I cannot retreat with my charges, I will seek cover and wait, engaging if necessary.
My father-in-law says the same thing. He was a Marine in the South Pacific during WWII. Told me if he was my age or younger, then he might look for ways to flank the Omaha mall shooter if possible or prudent. But at his age, said he'd push his wife into a corner and try to gather as many people to a safe cover spot, then stand gaurd and God rest the shooter's sorry soul if he came within firing range.

Jeff
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Old December 16, 2007, 12:18 PM   #34
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These threads always depress me.
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Old December 16, 2007, 12:21 PM   #35
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I have no duty to protect anybody but my "self imposed" duty to self and family.

With that said, I will protect myself and my family, nothing more, nothing less when I'm off duty. It sounds selfish, but it's reality. Life isn't like the movies and Use Of Force Investigations SUCK, BTDT. If you are not a member of my family I am not willing to risk bancruptcy, prison, financial ruin or death for you.

If I can flee without firing a shot, that's what I will do. If my family or self is being threatened then I will respond appropriately, or I hope I do. I have "appropriately" responded in the past if that is any indication of future behavior. Just because I'm fleeing doesn't mean however that I'm not being a good witness and summoning the "On Duty" LEO's to the scene.

The only exception I will make to assisting another is in the case of an "IDENTIFIED" LEO. Other than that, you all are on your own, just like I expect to be. BTW, I'm an LEO.

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Old December 16, 2007, 07:36 PM   #36
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In that case we would run both ways, Just like we did at the Chosin resivoir and Khe Sahn and the Canal. If there is just one of us we attack one way and when that target is defeated we go the other way LOL. If you look at history its not us Marines that are in trouble when we get surrounded its the ones who surround us that have the major problem. We like it as we dont have to go looking for them LOL. Marines have a proud battle history, i am proud to have been a part of it.
Semper Fi
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Old December 16, 2007, 07:41 PM   #37
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Yes, but you are not a group of marines, but a single individual, which way do you run when the shooting is from two directions?

However, I am not surprised by the response. The recitation of mantra as an answer to a question is such that it often doesn't fit the question.
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Old December 16, 2007, 08:58 PM   #38
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Well that depends on the situation. How often are you going to be in a crossfire as a civilian?? I am not worried about it. I am not really concerned about having to engage one person much less two. Yes a terrible tradgedy did happen at a mall but millions of others shopped in in peace. The odds are almost like winning the lottery to being in a shoot out.
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Old December 17, 2007, 05:42 PM   #39
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So basically, David, what you're advocating is "Leave it to someone else," right? That if it's not your job or you don't stand to gain something from it, then don't bother?
Actually David doesn't advocate much. He does suggest that you be aware of all the possible ramifications in order to make your best decision. So no, I don't say "don't bother", I do say "better know what can happen if you decide to bother."
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"Me first" isn't what either built or made this country. Self-determination, self-reliance, courage and teamwork is what made this country and made it great.
We'll disagree. But I doubt many of those pioneer types were thinking "Gee, I can't wait to have to work like a dog and fight the Indians and the weather so I can help out my fellow man!" I question how many of the 49ers were thinking "Wow, all this gold I'm panning will sure go a long way toward improving the status of this country inthe eyes of other nations!"
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Fact is, the way we were raised and brought up, we never gave it a second thought that we'd help out.
I don't mind helping out a bit. That is quite a bit different than ruining the rest of your life, or causing your kids to go without food, or losing the house, or going bankrupt, etc. I grew up on a farm also, and believe me there is quite a bit of difference between "let's help get the hay in before the rain hits" and "let's take a chance on getting our ass shot off."
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Old December 17, 2007, 05:48 PM   #40
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My father-in-law says the same thing. He was a Marine in the South Pacific during WWII.
What? Why, surely that cannot be! According to kgpcr,
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I would go after him. Marines run towards the gunfire not away from it.
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Old December 17, 2007, 05:50 PM   #41
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Life isn't like the movies and Use Of Force Investigations SUCK, BTDT. If you are not a member of my family I am not willing to risk bancruptcy, prison, financial ruin or death for you.
Well said!
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