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Old December 2, 2007, 04:09 PM   #26
kgpcr
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Some people cant wait to shoot some thing. I would not start lobbing bullets at my car. it did nothing to me to deserve it. I would kick the **** out of the one who stole it but not start shooting.
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Old December 2, 2007, 05:19 PM   #27
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There are times when "call 911 and let the cops handle" it is the best response.
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Old December 2, 2007, 07:11 PM   #28
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Is there a person in the car? Yes? Then you're shooting at a person!

Is your life in danger? No? Then you can't shoot at the person!
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Old December 2, 2007, 07:19 PM   #29
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My CCW instructor made it crystal to the class you are only justified in shooting if your or someone else's life in in danger.

There's no way this is justified. You simply do not shoot except in defense of a life.

To me, it's common sense. You try to shoot out the tires, find out it's a repo man, you're charged with wanton endangerment, brandishing, and about a dozen other offenses. Thousands of dollars in legal fees, criminal charges, and a million dollar civil suit over a stupid car.
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Old December 2, 2007, 07:49 PM   #30
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Now wait a minute

You’d be willing to shoot up your own car. Kind of takes the fun out of a good police chase doesn't it. Let them shoot the car up. They can usually find a way to do it semi-legally. I doubt you could.
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Old December 2, 2007, 08:55 PM   #31
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That would not be legal in Florida unless you feared immediate death of grave bodliy harm. And, firing a weapon is governed by laws that are not the same as CCW, so you'd probably face charges for discharging the gun. You'd be better off calling 911.
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Old December 2, 2007, 09:22 PM   #32
stephen426
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ISC
It depends on the State. In Florida we have something called the castle doctrine that says that we have the right to protect our home and property. Its the same in some other states. In some places like Ma. you are required to flee your own home through a window rather than protect it.
Please... If you have no clue what you are talking about, don't make yourself look stupid. Since when did the castle doctrine give one the right to protect their property with deadly force? Deadly force is only justified when your life or someone you are defending are facing death or serious bodily harm unless lethal force is used to prevent it. The castle doctrine just gives you the right to do so without having to retreat when you are in you home or place of business. With the new law, you do not have to retreat, even if you are in public, before defending yourself with deadly force. This is of course based on the fact that you did not start the confrontation and that you have a legal right to be where you are.

Please look something up before spouting off you opinions next time.

By the way, +1 on LoJack. If they are experienced car thieves, you might help locate a bunch of stolen cars. Professionals will usually leave cars in ramdom parking lots for several days to see if they are equipped with LoJack. Either that, or they will put the cars in containers and ship them off ASAP (usually to South and Central America).
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Old December 2, 2007, 09:43 PM   #33
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No, you can't legally shoot at the vehicle. The thief is fleeing and neither you nor anyone else is in danger. If you were to shoot and kill the BG or someone who would a grand jury and jury view the case when YOU left the vehicle running.
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Old December 2, 2007, 11:39 PM   #34
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I wouldn’t shoot even if legal to do so. If a bullet bounces off and kills an innocent, you are responsible.
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Old December 3, 2007, 01:37 AM   #35
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Quote:
Please... If you have no clue what you are talking about, don't make yourself look stupid. Since when did the castle doctrine give one the right to protect their property with deadly force? Deadly force is only justified when your life or someone you are defending are facing death or serious bodily harm unless lethal force is used to prevent it. The castle doctrine just gives you the right to do so without having to retreat when you are in you home or place of business. With the new law, you do not have to retreat, even if you are in public, before defending yourself with deadly force. This is of course based on the fact that you did not start the confrontation and that you have a legal right to be where you are.

Please look something up before spouting off you opinions next time.
Stephen I found your comment to be rude and offensive. You could have made the same point without being an ass.
This is the Florida State statute that says use of force is permissible to stop or prevent a forcible felony:
http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=Ch0776/SEC012.HTM&Title=->2007->Ch0776->Section%20012#0776.012
776.012 Use of force in defense of person.--A person is justified in using force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other's imminent use of unlawful force. However, a person is justified in the use of deadly force and does not have a duty to retreat if:

(1) He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony; or

(2) Under those circumstances permitted pursuant to s. 776.013.


Here is the definition of a forcible felony:
http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=Ch0776/SEC08.HTM&Title=->2007->Ch0776->Section%2008#0776.08
776.08 Forcible felony.--"Forcible felony" means treason; murder; manslaughter; sexual battery; carjacking; home-invasion robbery; robbery; burglary; arson; kidnapping; aggravated assault; aggravated battery; aggravated stalking; aircraft piracy; unlawful throwing, placing, or discharging of a destructive device or bomb; and any other felony which involves the use or threat of physical force or violence against any individual.

I will admit that the situation as presented by the original post is not a cut and dried case of an imminent threat, but this:

Quote:
OK placing others in danger.
Let's say the trunk is full of High powered rifles and shotguns and body armor. Now granted in this situation i wouldn't have been iresponsible enough to leave the car running and accesable. Or even if it's just one gun.
crosses that threshold in my opinion.
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Old December 3, 2007, 01:44 AM   #36
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I don't think too many states allow for protection of property, only human life in the instance of grave bodily harm or certain death.

And to the guy in Fla... read the laws better before you end up in big trouble. The Castle Doctrine limits you to ONLY your home within its 4 walls, and they include an attached garage. The original poster's scenario played out in his driveway, and then as the car was driving down the street. In Fla he would not have been justified.

Also as detailed in his account... you cannot shoot a fleeing suspect for any reason whatsoever. Not at any time, not anywhere. Period.
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Old December 3, 2007, 02:36 AM   #37
ISC
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man I even posted word for word the exact statute. It doesn't say anywhere that it has to be in your home.

I'm not saying that he'd be justified shooting, I know I wouldn't shoot personally, but I am saying that he'd have a case to defend himself in court, especially if he could make the case that he felt threatened due to his guns being in ths vehicle.

My last post was an attempt to show that Florida statutes do permit the use of force to prevent a forcible felony, which includes carjacking, robbery, etc.

I did this in response to the guy that said force cannot be used to protect property.

Does that break it down enough?
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Old December 3, 2007, 07:04 AM   #38
shamus005
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Quote:
In general I would recommend not shooting at all in situations where deadly force is not warranted.
Agreed. You have no reason to shoot in that situation. Behaviors like that make all firearms owners look bad and will only hurt YOU legally. Do NOT do it!
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Old December 3, 2007, 12:12 PM   #39
revance
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Keep in mind there are a lot of car parts that bullets like to bounce off of.

There have been several stories in the news (one in the past couple weeks) where police have fired on cars and the bullets have ricocheted and struck people (the most recent story the officer was hit).

Just another reason why its not worth it.
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Old December 3, 2007, 12:22 PM   #40
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Probably not legal 1st off, and 2nd,

EVERY round you fire is YOUR responsibility, where it goes and what it does when it gets there is YOUR problem. And take out the driver by mistake, and every where that car goes is your problem too - just not worth it as described.
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Old December 3, 2007, 12:27 PM   #41
CrazyIvan007
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Someone stealing and driving off with your vehicle does not present a clear and present threat of bodily injury.

Now, if you or someone defenseless were standing in front of the car and the perp decided to try to run you/them over, then I would say you are legally able to shoot in self defense.
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Old December 3, 2007, 12:46 PM   #42
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This is so stupid it is funny. Seriously, are you here trolling for HCI and Sarah Brady?

Quote:
Let's say the trunk is full of High powered rifles and shotguns and body armor. Now granted in this situation i wouldn't have been iresponsible enough to leave the car running and accesable. Or even if it's just one gun.
You forgot the suitcase nuke.

If you are such an idiot that you would leave all that in a car running with the keys in it and the doors unlocked the whole of society would be better served by you simply shooting yourself before you go on to arm more criminals.

In SOME states you MAY be coverred by law for shooting at your car in such a case. The safest legal and moral justification in all 50 states for the use of lethal force has and always will be to stop the immediate assualt with deadly force upon an innocent party (safest if this is yourself or immediate family). I know you want to run out into the street firing away like Mel Gibson in Lethal Weapon but that is almost universally NOT the intelligent thing to do.
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Old December 3, 2007, 12:48 PM   #43
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Maybe it was commandeered by the police...haven't you ever seen "Hollywood Homicide"?
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Old December 3, 2007, 12:55 PM   #44
Musketeer
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ISC stated:
Quote:
776.08 Forcible felony.--"Forcible felony" means treason; murder; manslaughter; sexual battery; carjacking; home-invasion robbery; robbery; burglary; arson; kidnapping; aggravated assault; aggravated battery; aggravated stalking; aircraft piracy; unlawful throwing, placing, or discharging of a destructive device or bomb; and any other felony which involves the use or threat of physical force or violence against any individual.

I will admit that the situation as presented by the original post is not a cut and dried case of an imminent threat, but this:
Stephen is right.

Sorry "involves the use or threat of physical force or violence against any individual." does not in any way cover some person driving away from you with your car which you left the keys in and doors unlocked. You come back and see your car driving away. No confrontation took place. No threat of lethal force was made. You could have left a fully auto M60 and 2,000 rounds of ammo in the trunk but NO THREAT was ever made by the theif.

I have faced a REAL carjacking in FL and it is very different than the stupid scenario posted. Real carjackings are what the law was made to address, not morons who leave their keys in running, unlocked cars!
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Old December 3, 2007, 01:01 PM   #45
Glenn E. Meyer
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Hello - 911. My car has been stolen so I shot it full of holes. Please tell the officers to look for a car full of bullet holes!

What, officers are coming to my house and I should lie down on the lawn?

----------

Hello, AllFarm Insurance. My car was stolen. I shot it full of holes so that it can be easily identified. The police found it down the street.

Now can you send an adjuster to tell me how much it will cost to replace all those major panels on the body and new seats? What about the blood?

What? You won't pay? What you are cancelling my policy? What do you mean that if you just let the car go and not shoot it, you would have paid off its fair value?

-------

Listen, wife - How many times do I have to tell you why I shot up our truck!! You think I'm stupid - what about your momma?
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Old December 3, 2007, 01:46 PM   #46
markj
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Quote:
It would be a different story if there were a child or another person still inside
Now that scares me..... shoot at a fleeing car with a kid inside?
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Old December 3, 2007, 04:38 PM   #47
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The question's been asked and answered, almost unanimously. Don't shoot your car, unless you've donated it to Knob Creek .

On to more productive things.

Closed.
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