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Old December 1, 2007, 12:52 AM   #26
BillCA
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Take your left (leading) leg and bring it hard right, across your body while taking a "long step" to the right. Your right leg bends and you drop to that knee, right foot hasn't moved but of course it's now on it's toe.
Thanks, Jim. Now both my back and my knee hurt!
Maybe I'm doing it wrong but it just felt awkward as heck to me.

What I think you're getting at is that you are (essentially) using the left leg to turn your body to the right, then pick up "normal" gait from there, dropping to a knee (ouch) if needed.

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Another question: what does an Isosceles-type shooter do to move laterally?
Though some instructors don't recommend it, I use a side-step "shuffle". Move the right foot first and as you move to that foot, the left foot moves to where the R-foot was or just beyond. It's not as fast but it takes me out of line of the shooter. The main issue here is if your right foot snags (curb, tree root, etc.) you can go down.

This works better for me because I can keep better aim as I move versus trying to twist my upper body.
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Old December 1, 2007, 11:12 AM   #27
ISC
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firing while moving is a valid technique, but there are limitations, mostly dictated by safety and friendly fire considerations
.
It isn't cover, that was well stated by a previous poster. This technique would actually be suppressive fire.
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Old December 1, 2007, 11:23 AM   #28
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Canuck... that's the point. adapting military Small Unit Tactics to personal self defense rarely works.

J. March,

Most people, regardless of training, revert to isosceles under stress, we know this from empirical evidence (dash cams, etc), and as you've alluded to, it is harder to move laterally while shooting in that position... another reason that I don't advocate shooting & moving.

-RJP
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Old December 1, 2007, 11:27 AM   #29
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I still agree with you, Rob, that a side step while drawing, then shoot, is a great compromise for most shooters.

Just as an exercise in theory, do you believe you (personally) can make good upper body hits while moving laterally?

If so, isn't this the best of both worlds?
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Old December 1, 2007, 11:52 AM   #30
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Rob..neither Fairbairn not Sykes were talking about the military use of a pistol when first teaching this method of shooting.
This advice was for police and armed civilian use of handguns.
Others here are also dead wrong about the accuracy of this technique--especially when used in conjunction with point/target/combat/focused shooting.
I have students making rapid fire COM/head shots while rapidly closing in within a few minutes of training.
And I stress the use of one hand shooting--which makes lateral movement a lot smoother and natural.
Not to mention making the same excellent hits possible while moving in any and all directions.
It is also the method of choice of the Israeli's when distance/cover is not an option.
It is also the method of choice that I learned from Phil Singleton (of S.A.S fame) for CQB and that my friends learned from Eric Haney ( Delta Force) and Mel Perry ( also of S.A.S.)
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Old December 1, 2007, 08:27 PM   #31
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Movement Inside of the Fight Continuum

"The fight will be what the fight will be." There is a definite fight continuum and inside the fight continuum there are a number of other continuums. There is of course, 7677's sight continuum there is a reaction continuum, and a movement continuum. There are even lesser continuums including grip, trigger, etc. but let's concentrate on the main three.

React as you need to react, move as you need to move, and see what you need to see within the context of the specifics of the fight. This is very straight forward and simple, yet each of these are intertwined. Each works in conjunction with the other and each has an effect on the other. The dynamics of the fight will be dictated by your position in the reactionary curve, the proximity of the threat, and the urgency of the situation. How you deal with the specifics of the fight will depend on your mindset, experience, training and skill level.

When it comes to training and skill level, I believe that we should strive to be as well rounded and versatile as possible. To understand the fight continuum and to cover as many bases as possible within that continuum, there needs to be a priority set on "the most likely situations." But training should not stop there. In regards to the movement continuum, I have broken the skill sets into four categories.

Stand and Deliver

Controlled Movement

Dynamic Movement

"Get the heck out of dodge" Movement

Stand and deliver is the entry level skill set. This is where you nail down your fundamentals. You should have stand and deliver skills down cold to truly excel in the skill sets that follow. Many very good men have come home after very tough nights with stand and deliver skills.... a few of them right here on this forum. One should not discount this skill set when it is used within the correct context of the fight.

Controlled movement is an intermediate skill set and would include the groucho (duck walk,) the side step (crab walk,) and "just walk." Controlled movement has it place also. When the urgency is lower and the proximity/distance requires more precision (sighted fire.)

Dynamic movement is the "high priority" movement that I referred to earlier. This is where you will most likely find yourself. Dynamic movement excels when you are behind in the reactionary curve, the proximity is close, and the urgency is high. This movement can range from "faster than a walk," to a jog, to a stride, to a run, and finally to a sprint. This type of movement really works well within the reaction continuum and the sight continuum. The use of threat focused skills takes this skill set well beyond what has been considered "possible" in the recent past. One handed skills are a "must" with dynamic movement.

“Get the heck out of Dodge” movement is simply sprinting to cover without engaging until you are behind cover. This has its place, especially in the military. Its use by a civilian defender is becoming less and less necessary due to the huge advancements in dynamic movement shooting over the past year. If cover is a couple of yards away.....by all means get to it! But do not die trying to get to something that is just too far away.

One should be well rounded. Prioritize your training to the "most likely situation." Work the other areas of the fight continuum, so that if you find yourself in a specific circumstance you will be comfortable there. Stay within the safety level of your skill level, but strive to improve each time out. Find, explore, and push your limitations within the fight continuum.
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Old December 1, 2007, 09:11 PM   #32
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As an instructor that specalizes in point shooting and dynamic movement I have sought out and trained with some of the best guys in the nation. Last month, I trained with Matt Temkin for the second time. Matt and I have batted this topic around on a number of occasions, with him on one side and me on the other. As I progress....as I teach more and more students....I am slowly beginning to see things Matt's way. The biggest factor in this change of heart comes down to the "type" of student that seeks out my courses. I tend to get the most motivated and highly skilled students. They are also extremely aggressive and very serious individuals.

One thing that these "top" students have made very clear to me is that "they are who they are." They were born a certain way and for them to not act as their instincts tell them would be next to impossible. These guys are born hunters/meateaters.....their mindset is that of "rightous indignation."

These guys and some of the guys that were in Matts course last month were the inspiration for my last "Who Are You?" article.

Not only does it matter "Who are you" but "what is your skill level." The guys that Matt, 7677, Gabe, and I train have the skill level to make solid hits with dynamic movement (not controlled movement) out to seven yards while moving dynamically to every direction on the clock.

This may be a relatively new skill set but it is an accurate, reliable, effective and efficient skill set. The "Dynamic Movement Draw Stroke" allows for hits on target area at the same time as a stationary draw stroke. It all comes down to the knowledge and the skill level.

Of course, nobody is saying that "dynamic movement" hits are "as accurate" as stationary hits. But, no one is making that claim threat focused hits are as accurate as sighted fire hits either. What we have here is an excellent balance of speed (of the shots and of the movement) and accuracy.

This is not suppressive fire, this is fast and accurate shooting with dynamic movement. All it takes is knowledge, training, skill level, and most of all......an open mind.
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Old December 1, 2007, 10:01 PM   #33
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Sorry for the repost guys, but this is pertinient to the conversation. Training with Matt for the second time, along with a few of my repeat students, and the conversations at the dinners is what inspired this article.

Who are you?


Over the last seven years there has been some major advancement in the art when it comes to the world of the gun. This is predominantly due to the realization that “one size does not fit all” and that the “situation” is the dictating factor when it comes down to choosing a tactic or technique to deal with a life threatening encounter. It is plain to see that the facts are that the situation dictates the strategy, the strategy dictates the tactics, and the tactics dictate the techniques. The technique based training of the past locked us into a “one size fits all” mentality that simply does not stand up under open minded scrutiny and much less inside of force on force.

As we look at the situation, one of the key components of this situation comes down to “who are you?” As we look at this question we immediately think of the most obvious aspects of it. We think about age, physical ability, size, and training. Of course, these are very important aspects of your personal situation. One aspect, that is less obvious, but none the less important, is your mindset. The question needs to be ask “who are you” in regards to the mental aspect of the fight. What has your past experiences and performances been in physical altercations? Are you aggressive or passive by nature? Did you immediately take the fight to the opponent or hesitate due to denial. Did you only go on the defensive?

These are all very important questions. But the reality is that many people have never had to answer these questions. For those of us that are not as lucky, we have a basic idea of who we are. For really unlucky people and the professionals, there is enough experience to know exactly who they are.

The reason that this question is so important is so that you can prioritize your training to take in account exactly who you are. If you know yourself to be very aggressive, you can train aggressive action as a known priority. This will not only fit your situation very well but it will also further entrench this natural desire to take the fight to the adversary. By ingraining this deeper and deeper, you will recognize the situation, for what it is, earlier and respond quicker. It is my belief that this is what we see in some of the old timers that have prevailed numerous times with stand and deliver skills or while advancing aggressively. Gunfighters such as Fairbairn, Sykes, Bryce, Jordon, and Askins were born hunters/meat eaters that knew exactly who they were and trained with this knowledge to the point that they were “in the fight” before the Average Joe would even know that a fight was eminent. This ability to recognize the fight early and respond to it with decisive aggressive action leaves options of tactics and techniques open that simply are not available to the Average Joe.

You may also know yourself as someone that can shift gears to aggressive action, but only after a slight hesitation. This is where many moderately trained civilians would find themselves. This knowledge can help you prioritize your training to something that gets you off of the line of attack, at a subconscious level, to give yourself some time for the conscious mind to catch up and go on the offense. This is where getting off of the X really shines. The forward oblique’s and parallel tracking works very well for this type of mindset. Visualization while training can improve this hesitation. You need to tap into that inner animal, the one that simply works off of indignation. Visualization of protection of my wife and kids brings me closer to the decisive aggressive action that some of the top gunfighters in history have used to prevail. Reality is that my wife and kids do not even have to be present for this mindset to be enacted. Any attack on me is an attack on my wife and kids.

You may also know yourself as someone that will only act defensively, someone that will simply not go on the offense. While I do not agree with this type of mindset, as an instructor I have to understand that this may be the makeup of some of my students. Skills such as rearward movement or fighting to cover can be taught as their priority tactic. As I give them those skills, I do my best to convey to them the importance of a winning mindset and the option of more aggressive tactics and techniques.

As I said earlier, many people have not had to answer the question of who they really are. For these people it is important to train yourself to be as well rounded as possible. It is also important to work on ingraining a winning mindset. Force of force courses can help you begin to determine who you are. Visualization while training is a very important aspect in cultivating this aggressive winning mindset.

When we look back on the old timers that were so successful in there numerous gunfights, one thing is perfectly clear. They had the mindset to not only win, but to aggressively destroy the threat. They did not shoot to stop. They did not shoot to defend. They shot to effectively obliterate the threat. This is what made the tactics and techniques that they chose to use, as effective as they were.

They knew exactly who they were. They trained and fought with this absolute knowledge.


So the question bears repeating, “Who are you?”
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Old December 1, 2007, 10:16 PM   #34
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Charging the guns as it where was always a move taught to me to break a fight or protect some one who was in your control or care.

Can't say I agree with all the postings , but agree they have some merit,, but I'll stick with what I was taught


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Old December 2, 2007, 02:14 AM   #35
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Running FOF scenarios has shown me that while rapidly advancing may win the day getting off line wins more of them. YMMV.
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Old December 2, 2007, 02:50 AM   #36
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Sykes, Fairbairn and others are speeking of scenarios were there is not going to be a trial after the fact. The act of pressing the attack may be viewed from a jury box, described by a lawer (who was not there) as over agresive. Getting off the line and seeking cover may be the best advice for the average joe.
Another point is the "profesional" gun fighters being able to identify a fight early ,worked "back in the day". Not so good now with litigation to consider? Draw too early, who is the agresor?
"If you were in fear of attack why did you advance"? The what ifs are never ending.
That said FOF practice is a good idea if you can find it or do it your self.
It is a concern that worying about legal consequences may cause one to pause too long.

Last edited by grey sky; December 2, 2007 at 04:03 AM. Reason: spelling
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Old December 2, 2007, 08:24 AM   #37
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Sad to say that getting off the line and seeking cover are rarely an option in the typical gunfight.
I also have been taught to shoot while moving in at an angle and that is another option in tight quarters.
After working in the courts for 28 years I have yet to see a case where the type of weapon or the tactic became an issue.
In the real world--as opposed to the gun rags--what matters is wheither or not the shooting was justified
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Old December 3, 2007, 01:13 PM   #38
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In the real world--as opposed to the gun rags--what matters is wheither or not the shooting was justified
Excellent point.

It is true that how you went about the shooting can influence peoples' perceptions of whether the shooting was justified, but on the whole, the question should be: Is this shooting justified? Can I avoid shooting, without harm to innocents or myself?
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Old December 3, 2007, 02:43 PM   #39
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Also true about the real world is that while the shooting involing the intended target may be ruled justified the one(s) resulting from the errant rounds may not. Something to think about when evaluating "acceptable rates of accuracy."
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Old December 4, 2007, 07:19 AM   #40
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Sine the police have a lousy hit rate I would like to hear your suggestions as what to do when up close and personal.
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Old December 4, 2007, 10:00 AM   #41
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Considerations

Marine Corps infantry doctrine calls for 'assaulting the ambush'. The only possible chance for survival in an ambush is to attack the ambushers. This has been shown to disrupt the ambush and break the attack.

However, outside a combat zone this may not be the best course of action. I can see where moving toward an attacker and firing rapidly in the direction of the attacker may not be the best course of action in a shopping mall during the Christmas shopping season.

I have long held tactics must be fluid and adaptable to the current situation. While I was a Border 'Troll in a rather desolate area of Southern California, I could do things I cannot do now working inside at Los Angeles International Airport.

Mr. Matthew Temkin asks the very valid question:
Quote:
Since the police have a lousy hit rate I would like to hear your suggestions as what to do when up close and personal.
The only possible answer is "Shoot quickly and don't miss."

Police have a lousy hit rate (and that is correct) for two reasons.

Reason number one is departments look at training as a budget item. Firearm qualification and training are done in a fashion to get most of the troops 'qualified' for lawsuit purposes while spending as little money as possible. That's just a fact of life for taxpayer funded organizations. Troops at the range are not on the job.

Reason number two is most law enforcement people are not shooters and look at firearms as a required evil at best. Most lawmen (women) will never fire their weapons except at the range and most simply don't take lethal self-defense seriously. (The lawmen who attend this forum are the exception, I should think.)

No hobbyist falls into reason number two; most work seriously at overcoming reason number one. The fact is, non-police firearms owners have a much better over all 'score' for shooting villains - and the proper villain - than police in general.

My own theory of gunfighting is this: Stay alert for coming problems. Anticipate what can happen and from where an attack may come. Be competent with one's equipment.
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Old December 4, 2007, 10:36 AM   #42
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MT,
Archie answered that one about as well as I could. The support offered by LEO administrators and the skill level among LEOs varies considerably, to say the least. I've found that also true of military, contractor, security force, etc personnel. The best are very good. The average, not so much.

You're offering up some of history's "very good," by the way. But that doesn't mean what worked for them will work for everyone, or that if operating today, given the available pool of resources, that that their tactics and advice would remain the same.

---
On miss rates:

Having a ___% miss rate is unacceptable.
Training to allow for it, more so.
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Old December 4, 2007, 02:39 PM   #43
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Obviously not all, perhaps most, military techniques are completely inappropriate for civilian use.

I assume Archie was talking about reacting to a near ambush. Maybe the marines do it differently, but we drop, seek immediate cover, throw a grenade, fire a couple rounds to suppress while we wait for it to go off, then assault.

For a far ambush we seek cover and lay down supporting fire for the element not in contact while they manuever on the enemy.

Neither of these is a viable option for a civilian who has been ambushed in a built up area.
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Old December 9, 2007, 01:18 AM   #44
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Each case is different. I would love a guy to come at me shooting rather than standing still and taking better aim. I loved the Iraqi's spray and pray. Marines just took a bead and plunked them. An AK47 is a great weapon but that was not a good tactic. I saw a Marine in a trench that ran his weapon dry pull his Kbar and run at a guy who while holding an AK turned tail to run another Marine made sure he did not get far. I would never want to take on a guy with a gun when i only had a knife but at that precise second that was his best option.
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Old December 10, 2007, 12:36 PM   #45
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A good practitioner should be able to draw while moving and get two A-zone hits also while moving laterally, creating several feet in distance between you and the adversary, all in under two seconds.

We teach that in any ballistic encounter, there are at least two targets, you and the BG. We want the student to be the toughest target to hit, and that is the moving target.
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Old December 10, 2007, 09:34 PM   #46
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Yes the Marines taught us to attack the ambush but not to be stupid. Cover fire move, cover fire move. attack but do it right!
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Old December 11, 2007, 11:10 AM   #47
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L'audace, l'audace...Toujours l'audace!
That was many years ago. Now the Surrender Monkeys say "J'abandonne,j'abandonne... Toujours j'abandonne"

Hope that's right.
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