The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old November 9, 2007, 07:58 PM   #26
Silentarmy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 13, 2007
Location: Bountiful, Utah
Posts: 355
I am in favor of training Mandatory to receive and possibly a continuing education program. There are few things more dangerous than untrained clowns running around packing loaded weapons with little or no training on how to strip, load, or maintain such weapon much less how to put rounds on target! I took the most expensive and extensive course available for my permit (when you left, you put a check and a stamp on the envelope and mailed it) and it covered much more than the states requirements! Did I need this? Well, I served 13 yrs with the Armed forces and 4 yrs as Civilian LEO and I certainly didn't need more weapons or marksmanship training but what I learned were the laws of my respective state, Reciprocity (or not) of surrounding states, where I could NOT carry legally, and even some of the Moral and Psychological issues of carrying and possibly using a gun in SD scnario. I left that class more informed and to be quite honest, More afraid of the fact that pending BCI approval, some of those disruptive, conspiracy theorist, mentally unstable Jacka$$es in the room with me might also be out there armed! I am Pro 2A rights but having worked around too many Psychos (for real) I believe there has to be some screening and in depth training required (and by screening I don't mean through the court system after one of these geniuses has had an altercation and whipped out an Unchambered/chambered gun and muzzled a crowd of people cuz they were coming to eat his brains). I have friends who lost their permits (and gun) after brandishing when they "got scared" and all I could do is shake my head. YOUR "right to carry" ENDS where anothers right not to have to worry about some crazy packing a gun BEGINS! That is not opinion BTW but Pure fact! (If you don't believe me, a Judge will one day set you straight)
Continuing education is a responsible thing to do. I am not saying make it mandatory but certainly offer it as an option upon renewal of permits and at least take that dusty revolver out of the purse or glovebox, Throw away the corroded Green ammo and drop it in a sonic cleaner for a few mins! I believe (this is an opinion) that concealed carry is a responsibility of Every Non-criminal citizen of this country Unless you are found mentally unstable!(how many stable people do you hear about shooting up a school or mall etc...). Felons, You gambled with your civil rights and LOST! Deal with it or risk going back to see that Ben Dover guy you met in prison.
Peace Out!

Good Topic Wild. Thanks
__________________
"No one will Ever buy that PLASTIC gun!"
Steve Gallenson, Early 1980's
"Those Who live by the sword get Shot by those of us who don't"
"What we learn from History is that we do not learn from History!"
Silentarmy is offline  
Old November 9, 2007, 08:12 PM   #27
ZeSpectre
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 4, 2007
Location: Shenandoah Valley
Posts: 3,276
Quote:
What I don't understand is why anyone would buy a gun without learning how to use it safely. That just doesn't make any sense.
Sadly I think it's because many Hollywood brainwashed people are pretty sure it's a magic talisman that will "automagically' protect them once it's in the house (or else it's a bloodthirsty monster that will corrupt the house, eat the dog, and piss on the couch)
ZeSpectre is offline  
Old November 9, 2007, 08:17 PM   #28
Thunderhawk88
Junior member
 
Join Date: January 14, 2007
Location: So. California, Desert style.
Posts: 745
I am fully in favor of mandatory training for CCW, provided that the training is the same for everyone. Familiarity with the laws is good, but more emphasis should be placed on a minimum proficiency. All we had to fire was 10 rounds/5 yards with a reload along the way. No score was kept; we just had to hit the target.
Thunderhawk88 is offline  
Old November 9, 2007, 08:19 PM   #29
RoadkingLarry
Member
 
Join Date: October 28, 2007
Posts: 20
I've never seen the government get its hands into anything and make it better.

That said the only "mandatory" training I'd like to see would be some kind of firearms safety and familiarization training in K-12 (Eddie Eagle on steroids)

Unfortunately the average American is pretty much a booger eating moron and we are pretty much just stuck with that.
RoadkingLarry is offline  
Old November 9, 2007, 08:42 PM   #30
Malexander
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 3, 2007
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
Posts: 118
Gotta say that I think it's insane to not require a uniform minimum standard of firearms proficiency.

Hell, when I joined the University rifle club last year it takes 2 months of training before they'll even let you shoot solo. And this is a rifle club for pete's sake!

Handguns are very easily abused and you've got to remember that for every 99 good responsible owners, like those we generally find of TFL, there are 1 or 2 idiots or psychos. Gotta weed out those guys.

I understand the concerns some of the other posters have that it would simply be used as a means to make CCW more difficult to attain, but I think in the long run, better training is likely to lead to a better public image of CCW holders. Move us away from the image some have of gun owners being nutty weirdos about to commit the next school shooting and towards an image of responsible defenders of public order.
Malexander is offline  
Old November 9, 2007, 09:03 PM   #31
lockedcj7
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 15, 2007
Posts: 1,215
I'm not opposed to mandatory training for CCW on either moral or practical grounds. In SC, the training isn't done by the government but they have established the minimum criteria. Private (approved) instructors provide training which keeps the cost down due to competition. Heck, even the local technical college offers the course. My wife and I both went through it. It was 4 hours of legal, 4 hours of gun safety, handling, etc and then a range session on a different day. IIRC, they required 50 rnds to qualify including draw-and-fire and reloads. The ranges were from 3 yds out to 25 yds.

I do think there are extenuating circumstances where a judge should issue a temporary CCW along with an order of protection or TRO. A court appointed LEO could provide 15 min. worth of instruction on safety, load-n-unload, and shoot-don't shoot. In that situation, there isn't time for full-featured training and requiring it would be an "undue burden" on the applicant.
__________________
To a much greater extent than most mechanical devices, firearms are terribly unforgiving of any overconfidence, complacency or negligence.
lockedcj7 is offline  
Old November 9, 2007, 09:03 PM   #32
meanoldman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 14, 2000
Posts: 218
You have to take a driving test to get a driver's license. Yuu have to take exams to be a licensed nurse, lawyer or physician. You should have to take a test (class) to carry a pistol. There are too many unsafe, ignorant idiots out there wanting to carry for all the wrong reasons.

David
meanoldman is offline  
Old November 9, 2007, 10:43 PM   #33
Yellowfin
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 7, 2007
Location: Lancaster Co, PA
Posts: 2,311
That is true, except the problem is, meanoldman, that too many people consider anyone who even wants to own a firearm as being the unsafe, ignorant idiots and would use that standard to exclude everyone.
Yellowfin is offline  
Old November 9, 2007, 11:33 PM   #34
WhiteFeather93
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 16, 2005
Location: Oley Pa
Posts: 281
:barf::barf::barf:

Good people oughta be armed when and where they will.
Either we are equal or we are not.
__________________
"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity" -Freud
"A democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where fifty-one percent of the people may take away the rights of the other forty-nine." -Thomas Jefferson.
WhiteFeather93 is offline  
Old November 9, 2007, 11:47 PM   #35
obxned
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 30, 2007
Location: OBX, NC
Posts: 1,128
I personally think that training and lots of regular practice are of great benefit. However, I don't think a lot of mandatory training should be a requirement for someone before they can exercise their right to stay safe and alive.

In NC, you are required to take a 1 day course to get your CCP. The morning is spent in class learning the law and your responsibilities, followed by a test. This is the real meat of the course.

The afternoon is live fire, about 100 rounds. While the distances and time allowances are such that great shooting ability is not required, it does give the instructors a chance to see if you can load and operate your firearm safely.

I think this is a fairly reasonable requirement. When I took the course, it cost $50 and included a free lunch.
__________________
“If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth.” Ronald Reagan

I'm a proud member of a North Carolina Committee of Safety
obxned is offline  
Old November 10, 2007, 12:12 AM   #36
ATW525
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 14, 2005
Location: Concord, NH
Posts: 2,723
There's no training requirement for getting a CCW here in NH and it's a non-issue. The fact of the matter is that people serious about it will take the time to seek out training. The people aren't that serious end up leaving their gun at home in the sock drawer because they can't be bothered to carry it. Mandatory training is a pointless "feel good" measure that serves no practical value except to complicate the process of exercising one's rights.
ATW525 is offline  
Old November 10, 2007, 01:57 AM   #37
Silentarmy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 13, 2007
Location: Bountiful, Utah
Posts: 355
Whitefeather, I think that was how Sulemon Tolevich felt as he entered a mall not far from my home and Killed 6 men, women, and teens, as well as injuring 4 more at random with a shotgun and various other guns. He was a good kid, just ask his Mom! Either you are EQUALLY Psycho, or you are not. The only opponents to training are the ignorant few who somehow believe they inherited the power of the Voodoo magic from Uncle Daddy so they can't be taught anything they don't already know.
Luckily, the TRAINING of an off duty officer put an end to such a spree as the body count climbed. If one is to believe that only cops need to train, then lock up your guns at home and let those well trained officers protect you always!
__________________
"No one will Ever buy that PLASTIC gun!"
Steve Gallenson, Early 1980's
"Those Who live by the sword get Shot by those of us who don't"
"What we learn from History is that we do not learn from History!"
Silentarmy is offline  
Old November 10, 2007, 02:33 AM   #38
DonR101395
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 30, 2005
Location: NWFL
Posts: 3,031
Morally I'm opposed because I don't believe the government should be regulating CCW or anything else related to firearms.
Practically I'm opposed because it should not cost more than the price of a gun and ammo in order to be able to defend yourself with a firearm.

All that being said, I also believe that you should pay dearly if you fail to get yourself properly trained and harm others through negligence.
DonR101395 is offline  
Old November 10, 2007, 02:50 AM   #39
Wildalaska
Junior member
 
Join Date: November 25, 2002
Location: In my own little weird world in Anchorage, Alaska
Posts: 14,172
Quote:
I also believe that you should pay dearly if you fail to get yourself properly trained and harm others through negligence.
Small comfort to a dead kid and a grieving family

WildooohkenyouarefallinintothetrapofplayingonemotionsjusthoughtidpointoutwhatahypocriteiambeforesomeoneelsedoesAlaska TM
Wildalaska is offline  
Old November 10, 2007, 03:04 AM   #40
DonR101395
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 30, 2005
Location: NWFL
Posts: 3,031
Quote:
Small comfort to a dead kid and a grieving family

Sorry Wild, but nobody guarenteed a safe life, but a little piece of paper guaranteed your right to arms shall not be infringed.


DonthepeskyBORgetsinthewayofasafelifeforjunior101395
DonR101395 is offline  
Old November 10, 2007, 03:16 AM   #41
Wildalaska
Junior member
 
Join Date: November 25, 2002
Location: In my own little weird world in Anchorage, Alaska
Posts: 14,172
But see, now you are off the subject

It isnt a legal question per the OP

WildthreadriftalertbwaaaaadangerdangerAlaska TM
Wildalaska is offline  
Old November 10, 2007, 06:39 AM   #42
Billy Sparks
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 10, 1999
Location: Winston-Salem, NC 27105
Posts: 745
Quote:
All that being said, I also believe that you should pay dearly if you fail to get yourself properly trained and harm others through negligence.
But if there is no required training how would you know your actions had moved into the realm of negligence? I am talking about your didn't realize that your states laws said X or Y about the use of deadly force.

Also this would have to be one a state and local level. I would not want to have to go to Gunsite, et al for training. The reason is that altough they would give me top notch weapon handleing training they could not tell me (with certainty) diddly about NC laws.
Billy Sparks is offline  
Old November 10, 2007, 08:59 AM   #43
Hallucinator
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 7, 2007
Posts: 396
I'm of two minds about this. I grew up around people who knew guns, and they never had accidents. In those days, there was no need for training, because gun safety and courtesy was a tradition.

Unfortunately, that tradition is gone. Although, most people who are legal gun owners are responsible enough to learn gun safety whether or not it is mandatory, there are others who have no idea what they're doing. Somebody who gets a gun for self defense and doesn't practice is a hazard to themselves and others. I think the training is important.

Getting gun safety embedded in the muscle memory is really an advantage. Even if you are being absent minded, chances are your body remembers to keep the finger off the trigger and to keep the muzzle pointed in a safe direction. The only way to achieve this is through repetition.

Unfortunately, we live in a culture where people have to be told what to do. Therefore I believe training in gun safety has to be mandatory, just as background checks are necessary to keep psychotics from getting guns. It's a sad state of affairs, but all you have to do is observe what goes on in the world of street kids with guns to know how serious the situation is.
__________________
Sig 226, 228, 229, 232. XD45 Tactical. Smith Model 60 Chief's Special. Smith 1911. Mossberg 930 SPX.

How we behave as gun owners is important. Posturing and threatening does not serve us well in the public eye.
Hallucinator is offline  
Old November 10, 2007, 10:45 AM   #44
Rob Pincus
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 9, 1998
Location: Hotels
Posts: 3,668
This is a very slippery slope.....

I believe everyone should be responsible enough to get training, but I don't like the idea of the gov't mandating what that training should consist of.

Colorado went to a very low level of required training a few years ago. I do not do the $50/4 hr "state minimum" course that many of the local instructor types do on the weekends. Technically, the state says that a qualified instructor only has to document that the applicant has "demonstrated competency" with a firearm.

When people call Valhalla about training for permits, we tell them that if they take our 2 or 3 day concealed carry tactics course, we will consider writing a letter to their Sheriff based on their performance.

-RJP
Rob Pincus is offline  
Old November 10, 2007, 11:26 AM   #45
brickeyee
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 29, 2004
Posts: 3,351
When the Virginia 'shall issue' law was in the legislature the training issue was brought up.
Since training had already been used to deny permits under the old 'may issue' system a uniform (but very lax) standard was passed.

§ 18.2-308. Personal protection; carrying concealed weapons; when lawful to carry.
G. The court shall require proof that the applicant has demonstrated competence with a handgun and the applicant may demonstrate such competence by one of the following, but no applicant shall be required to submit to any additional demonstration of competence:

1. Completing any hunter education or hunter safety course approved by the Department of Game and Inland Fisheries or a similar agency of another state;

2. Completing any National Rifle Association firearms safety or training course;

3. Completing any firearms safety or training course or class available to the general public offered by a law-enforcement agency, junior college, college, or private or public institution or organization or firearms training school utilizing instructors certified by the National Rifle Association or the Department of Criminal Justice Services;

4. Completing any law-enforcement firearms safety or training course or class offered for security guards, investigators, special deputies, or any division or subdivision of law enforcement or security enforcement;

5. Presenting evidence of equivalent experience with a firearm through participation in organized shooting competition or current military service or proof of an honorable discharge from any branch of the armed services;

6. Obtaining or previously having held a license to carry a firearm in the Commonwealth or a locality thereof, unless such license has been revoked for cause;

7. Completing any firearms training or safety course or class conducted by a state-certified or National Rifle Association-certified firearms instructor;

8. Completing any governmental police agency firearms training course and qualifying to carry a firearm in the course of normal police duties; or

9. Completing any other firearms training which the court deems adequate.

A photocopy of a certificate of completion of any of the courses or classes; an affidavit from the instructor, school, club, organization, or group that conducted or taught such course or class attesting to the completion of the course or class by the applicant; or a copy of any document which shows completion of the course or class or evidences participation in firearms competition shall constitute evidence of qualification under this subsection.

Is is strictly a safety requirement.
Virginia has NO statute law governing deadly force (it is ALL case law).
The 'Virginia Gun Owners Guide' is available and covers the basics of the case law very well.
With over 140,000 permits there have not been any significant problems.
brickeyee is offline  
Old November 10, 2007, 11:35 AM   #46
DonR101395
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 30, 2005
Location: NWFL
Posts: 3,031
Quote:
But see, now you are off the subject

It isnt a legal question per the OP
It's absolutely a legal question. When you start talking about the government mandating anything it becomes a legal issue.


Quote:
But if there is no required training how would you know your actions had moved into the realm of negligence? I am talking about your didn't realize that your states laws said X or Y about the use of deadly force.

Also this would have to be one a state and local level. I would not want to have to go to Gunsite, et al for training. The reason is that altough they would give me top notch weapon handleing training they could not tell me (with certainty) diddly about NC laws.

They don't teach you all of the state laws regarding car ownership in drivers ed. Ignorance of the law is no excuse.
I'm not against training, I'm just against govt mandated training. I spend $1500-$2000 a year on training courses of various types. I don't expect others to go to that level, but I don't want to the govt telling me I need to spend that money on training either.
DonR101395 is offline  
Old November 10, 2007, 11:42 AM   #47
Thunderhawk88
Junior member
 
Join Date: January 14, 2007
Location: So. California, Desert style.
Posts: 745
Quote:
Sorry Wild, but nobody guarenteed a safe life, but a little piece of paper guaranteed your right to arms shall not be infringed.
Oh please! Mandatory training for CCW does not infringe on your right to bear arms, but it does provide a slight assurance that you are not a putz with a gun.
Thunderhawk88 is offline  
Old November 10, 2007, 11:43 AM   #48
CajunBass
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 6, 2005
Location: North Chesterfield, Virginia
Posts: 4,765
Sure. Go ahead. Support manditory training. Then watch them start raising the standard of what they consider "trained." Pretty soon a Gunsite graduate won't qualify.

That's exactly the kind of thinking that got us the gun control laws we've got now. "It's just a reasonable restriction. They'll stop now."

Keep the camels nose out of the tent.
__________________
For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:16 (NKJV)
CajunBass is offline  
Old November 10, 2007, 11:49 AM   #49
DonR101395
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 30, 2005
Location: NWFL
Posts: 3,031
Quote:
Oh please! Mandatory training for CCW does not infringe on your right to bear arms, but it does provide a slight assurance that you are not a putz with a gun.
Really, there is mandatory training to get a driver's license for a teen and I see plenty of putz's behind the wheel.
It's a feel good measure that people let be put into legislation to get CCW permit bills passed. It absolutely infringes on your right to bear arms. Without the mandatory training you can not carry and that is an infringement.
DonR101395 is offline  
Old November 10, 2007, 03:49 PM   #50
David Armstrong
Junior member
 
Join Date: January 24, 2005
Location: SW Louisiana
Posts: 2,289
Quote:
Id love to go get professional training, but i just cant afford it.. I know alot of other people are put off by the cost as well. Every time i mention training at the range, they seem excited about it. But once i mention the cost of some of the schools, they loose all that excitement and say, something to the effect of i cant afford that.
The answer to that problem is contact some of the travelling trainers and see how much it would cost for them to come to you and your range to put on a training program. You might be surprised how inexpensive the cost can be. Feel free to contact me in private message if you want and I'll put you in touch with some of them.
David Armstrong is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:38 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2021 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Page generated in 0.11372 seconds with 8 queries