fewer rounds ok?

[625]

I would like to know if anyone has ever heard of a case where someone’s self defense handgun ran out of ammo because their gun only held 5-8 rounds, and ended up critically wounded or dead. I'm strictly talking about civilian self-defense. I have a 5-shot J frame and would like to know what my chances are at running out of ammo if I ever have to use it. Assume that I am a good but not great shot. Would my chances of being hit by lightning be greater? Don't get me wrong, I love full-cap guns, but they tend to be too large for me to conceal in the warmer months.

[Purdue_XD40]

wondering if you have enough or will have enough ammo, is like asking should i wear the black or red boxers when you get up in the morning, what do you think you will need? and most importantly what are you comfortable with?

[CarbineCaleb]

I think this is one of those questions that everyone can have an opinion on, but noone can truely answer. There are an awful lot of variables:

- How many attackers?
- How close are they? cover?
- What are they armed with?
- How big/fat/tough/angry?
- How good is your shooting at that moment?
- Where are you able to hit him/them?

You will only know the answers to those questions after the incident, if and when it happens.

With the 5 shot revolver you described, if you are (somehow) able to shoot very well at that moment, I'll bet you can take down two guys. On the other hand, from the anecdotes I've heard, and FBI stats I've read, few people shoot well at this sort of time. For example, recently on another thread someone described taking on a small black bear (190lb) with a revolver, I had the impression face to face distance - he emptied the 5-shot revolver, and only got two hits, one of which was in the foot - not trying to criticize, this seems to be common.

While I'm sure the 5-shot can do it with cool marksmanship, it wouldn't hurt to have a few more round. I am a full-sized handgun guy, so I don't really look at that end of the scale, but I believe that a well designed compact 9mm can hold more rounds than a comparably sized revolver.

[Shooter 973]

I'd hate to die for failure to have the ability to shoot back. I always carry extra ammo when I go Deer hunting or Duck hunting or even Rabbit hunting, and my life is not on the line then!!!Carrying a few more rounds give me more peace of mind. If you don't feel like ya need that peace of mind don't carry any extra ammo.

[Ledbetter]

From my reading on the subject, most one-on-one gunfights are won or lost in the first few seconds.

Just the same, a speedloader or two might be a good stocking-stuffer for you.

[USP45usp]

I just feel better with at least one reload. You never know what may happen and many times, Mr. Murphy happens.

I don't know how much inducted stress training that you've had (I've had very little and can only comment on this one experience on it) but you're shooting will look like a first timer picking up and firing a weapon (okay, a mid-shooter with most (not I) here).

Wayne

[6shooter]

I've carried a 5-shot revolver and 1 speed loader for years. I never ran out of ammo. I only had to use that gun once in self defence and I never fired a shot. I think it would be alright to carry a 5 round gun and pay attention to where you go.

[CarbineCaleb]

This lil guy can give you 10 rounds of 9mm or 9 rounds of .40S&W:
http://www.springfield-armory.com/pr...-compact.shtml

[WOD]

I have posted this in the general discussion, but I hope it helps you with your decision. I have carried a S&W 442 for my CCW for years and have always felt comfortable with the limited rounds, but I can tell you that my logic is to carry as many rounds as is practical to your daily routine. A five shot pistol is better in a gunfight than having nothing at all.
------------------------------------------------------------
About 7 days ago I receive a call at my business from my neighbor whom I consider a good family friend as we watch out for each others kids and homes. He tells me he has called the cops as their was a group of 9 guys loitering at an abandoned lot across the street who were talking trash to my 10 year old daughter and her friend as they were walking home saying things too perverse for me to want to repeat. He tells me the cops should be on their way. Five minutes later I get a frantic call from my wife who tells me to close up shop and come home ASAP and make sure my gun was ready, as another couple of guys have arrived and are now giving my neighbor crap. Being the smart guy he was, he loaded up the shotgun and just stayed quite and wholed up in his house. It took me awhile to convince some of my customers to leave and my anxiety level was getting critical. I sped home but during the drive I was going through scenarious and none of them looked good to me as I had 6 shots in my PM9 and I knew there were at least 11 guys. My other 7 round mag was still in pieces on the work bench. My usual carry weapon is a S&W 442 and so I guess I could consider myself lucky having one more round today. I knew that if I could keep my cool and get into my house I could get my 12 gauge for a primary, but what if I went home to a middle of a fight or encountered immediate resistance. Also I was reluctant to provoke them with a visible weapon. Luckily for me when I got home their were about a dozen squad cars and according to my neighbor, all the cops had their weapons drawn on these thugs but even still half of them were able to run off. In any case, it is these rare instances that one finds a real urge to have more than 10 rounds at immediate disposal. Also as another example, three months ago there was a fatal shooting in which a meth dealer 2 houses behind me shot one cop in the knee and it took two of his fellow officers 21 shots with 8 confirmed hits to bring this guy down and from what I hear from a friend in the department, the scumbag was able to flip them off right before he died of his wounds. I woke up to this and to me it sounded like alot more than 21 shots, but just imagine being confronted my a couple of meth dealers who will shoot you dead and may require more than 5 rounds each to incapacitate. Now imagine 11 of them as in my situation. All the sudden 30 round mags dont seem too overdone. Just my two cents.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
As an update from a friend in the department it appeared 1 of the 5 guys arrested had a stolen gun and all had violent criminal histories and meth was found in their proximity. I was told I was fortunate as the guys that ran had something illegal enough to be worth eluding officers.

Best Regards

[WOD]

For example, recently on another thread someone described taking on a small black bear (190lb) with a revolver, I had the impression face to face distance - he emptied the 5-shot revolver, and only got two hits, one of which was in the foot - not trying to criticize, this seems to be common.

This is a good point as the above shooter is me. To me it seemed like that bear was a huge unmissible target and from what I can recall I was pretty cool about making the shots so I was rather dumbfounded when I realized only 2 shots had hit him at less than 10 feet. Even though my hit to shots ratio sucked, I knew the limitations of myself and my pistol well enough to at least get a hit. I would not have shot at him were he at 20 feet, because I can barely hit a garbage can at that distance. Now you may think that I am just the lousiest shot in the world, but I can tell you that with my equally small Kahr PM9 I can hit sporting clays and coke cans at 20 feet all day. My advice is to know yourself and know your CCW weapon intimately so that you can increase your chances of coming out of a threatening situation alive.

A spare tire is uselesss if you dont know how to change it out.

Best Regards,

WOD

[Dave R]

I read on the Internet that most defensive shootings are covered by the "rule of 3's". Its all decided by 3 shots within 3 seconds at 3 ft distance. But that's only the Internet.

I carry a P-11 with 11 on tap when I can, and a P-3at with a spare mag (13 rnds total) when I can't.

[zzirg]

the way i have it figured if i have five rounds,its a hell of alot better then being empty and usually,not always but usually when someone shoots back nobody sticks around to claim a round for themselves, if you catch my drift.In other words sometimes even an empty gun is enough to deter someone , its amazing how fast a gun will humble most people.

[Double Naught Spy]

625, nobody every complained about shooting too well in a fight or having too much ammo left over after the fight.

The chances of you running out of ammo in a fight are very good with a 5 shot revolver. Now, whether that means you run out and the bad guys keep trying to kill you may be another matter, but you can probably count on running out. Numerous security video tapes shown on various crime shows such as on TLC document folks, like shop owners, who are in fights and shoot until empty. Often, the bad guys take the lack of shooting as an opportunity to escape, but there is no reason why they could not use it as an opportunity to kill the shopkeeper who is out of ammo.

[jonathon]

1 to 2 reloads is all I would say..

I would say if your gun holds more than 12 rounds anyways... why bother carrying an extra mag unless its so easy and hassle free you can? I can understand mag failures.. but you check your mags often enough, that should be a non-issue.

With that J frame.. consider carrying 2 or 3 speed strips.. they are comfortable and can be put anywhere(just shoot the rounds once and a while so they don't get to grimey)

[ATW525]

The only time I had to draw my weapon was to stop an assault in a park and the odds were very much like the situation WOD encounted. There was quite a few of them and I had a P220 with 7+1, plus a spare magazine. I didn't need to shoot, but if it ha come to that I very likely could have lost. For this reason the lowest capacity I use for general carry is 12+1. The fact is that the threat of multiple attackers is a very real possibility and missing is also a very real possibility and for these reasons I almost never leave the house without a minimum 31-46 rounds of ammo for my carry weapon. Call it excessive if you want, but I'd rather have it and not need it, than need it and not have it. An attacker letting me call time out to buy more ammo is about as likely as an attacker letting me call 911 and waiting for the police to arrive.

[Relayer]

Here's my take.

The only thing for sure is that if you fire 5 shots, then you are out of ammo. Will 5 be enough? Maybe probably... but what if it isn't. Your plan then is to...?

Carrying 5 is much much better than carrying 0. It's clearly not as good as carrying 14, etc.

Key word is "carrying".

[generallobster]

I carry the 642 with five shots and believe that it is a whole lot more than I did with for the past quarter century: nothing in my pocket. More importantly I carry the 642 over the 11 shot pt111 millenium I own because it is lighter, easier to lug around and because it doesn't have a safty that I'm tempted to use. Even if I didn't use the safty I would still worry about having to disengage it when it accidently engages itself by getting bounced around through carry--something that happens regularly to me at least. I once watched a survalance video where a jewelry shop owner tried to draw on an armed robber and got 7 bullets in his chest because he was pulling the trigger on a gun locked in safe mode. When being interviewed later he said "I'm a jeweler, not a gun fighter" and seeing the video humbled me enough to know that I'm no desperado either. Simple is good.

[Corolla]

I lived in PA around stroudsburg area untill last dec. i would feel fine with only five shoots. I now live in florida in polk county this area has been on cops way to many times here i carry a five shot revolver and beretta 92fs with 16 rounds. But in pa unless you live in one of the areas that was getting bad when i left( i know some towns around lancaster falling to drug ) i would feel fine.

[beenthere]

Bill Hickock got by with five in a revolver with a backup 5 in another revolver. I don't know about most of you, but I'm no Bill Hickock and I don't think I could calmly stand there and sight and squeeze on multiple targets while they were shooting at me. Of course the good thing is the BG probably aren't Bill Hickock either. More is probably better in some cases, but it's what you can shoot well.

[xXStarScreamXx]

To me more is better, since I cant carry my 12+1 plus a mag is good for the house. If I were able to carry I'd probaly aim a little higher 16+1. A goot 9mm +P+ should get me out of sticky situations beterr than let's say 5. I think of it like a fight, I'd rather have 17 friends have my back than 5.

[XavierBreath]

Newhall California. April 5th, 1970.

In under five minutes, two well armed criminals shot and killed four California Highway Patrol Officers, Walter Frago, Roger Gore, James Pence, Jr. and George Allen. Officer Pence, who had taken .45 slugs to both legs and to his chest was executed with a shot to his head while trying to reload his .357 magnum revolver. He was found with the spent shells in his pants pocket, just as he had trained at the range.

Not only did police firearms change afterwards, but so did thier tactics.

edited to add.... Oops, you said civilian.

[jonathon]

I heard about the shell incident from an old Deputy up here. That effected a lot more than just Cali, that is for certain.

[Garand Illusion]

A coupla thoughts ...

Don't worry about facing down 11 guys with a six shooter. Just drop the first 1 or 2 with head shots and watch the rest scatter -- BG's are rarely willing to charge into gunfire and they're not exactly suicidal ninjas.

Now if the 11 guys have guns ... it doesn't matter either. Unless they're really stupid and incredibly unlucky, you're not going to be able to win that gunfight irregardless of weapon (unless your CCW is an M2 and you have full body armor, of course).

But that said ... when I shoot slow fire I can punch neat little patterns into any target you put in front of me with absolute consistency. Head shot? No problem! just tell me what eye you want it in.

But when I took my advanced concealed carry course I quickly discovered that while firing on the move and in a rushed situation it's real easy to miss more times than you would think possible. With a little practice I started hitting pretty well, but even though we were training as well as possible the targets weren't shooting back or charging with a knife. No adrenaline flowing.

So more bullets is better.

But I'm comfortable with a 5 shot revolver, even though I moved my main CCW to a 9 shot auto after that class.

Bottom line ... you're confronted by a bunch of guys and produce a 5 shot revolver, it's going to change the situation real fast. Which BG is going to charge first? Guys out to rob will move on to the little old lady down the street and her social security check and leave the armed person alone.

[payne]

I carry 12+1 with an extra 12 to boot of 40. Rare situation where I cant carry my full size. But I plan on taking care of that rare situation by purchasing a little Keltec P11. I though about a little wheelie, but decided to go with the 10+1 in 9mm. Just gotta save the money for it. Need bout 50 more bucks.

[CajunBass]

I carry a Kel-Tec P-11 also. 10+1, and I carry an extra mag as well. Why? Because I got it.

But I've got a 5 shot 38 snubbie that I used to carry. A couple of speed strips with 12 more didn't take up any room in a shirt or pants pocket.