Whats the difference?

hbhobby · September 4, 2014, 10:24 AM

Recently dove season opened so i took my newest girlfriend out for some birds. When i shoot at the clay piggeons i am about 90% +. But when the real birds fly i cant hit anything. 15 shots for 3 birds down. What could i be doing wrong? When i shoot old betsy i do much better with real birds about same with clays? The newest girlfriend is an over under made in italy. Dont know much more about it than that. Any help is appreciated. I like the look and feel of the gun but if it dont bring home the goods it does me no good

Doyle · September 4, 2014, 10:55 AM

1. Clay birds don't "wiggle" - dove do.
2. You know exactly the distance, speed, and tragectory of a clay bird. Your brain doesn't know any of those on a dove - it has to mentally calculate them. The mere fact that all dove are not exactly the same size is enought to throw a wrinkle into the mental distance calculation.

BigJimP · September 4, 2014, 02:04 PM

There is no way to tell what you're doing ..over the internet...someone would have to watch you shooting...to see where your fundamentals are falling apart.

It could be any number of things....lack of follow thru, a bad mount, not enough lead, too much lead.../maybe the gun doesn't fit you the way it should.....
--------------
In my opinion, if you can shoot 90 our of 100, with a low gun, on a windy day on a regulation Skeet field...you should be able to do something better than 60 or 70% probably ....for Quail or Doves...

Maybe you're "slapping" at a bird or "snapping off a shot" ...vs taking a smooth and controlled shot ...and a good solid follow thru.../ but I can't tell unless I was watching you shoot....

jmr40 · September 4, 2014, 02:18 PM

To be honest, 5 shots per bird is just about average. I see a lot worse, and it takes a very good shooter to hit 50%.

A400 Fan · September 4, 2014, 03:15 PM

Quote:

The newest girlfriend is an over under made in italy.

You can't read the name on the gun? What clays are you shooting that you are shooting 90%? - If that is just some simple going away hand-tossed backyard stuff, that is one thing; but if you are shooting tough club targets at that rate, that is something altogether different. Dove don't move in a static straight line or at a constant speed. It isn't the gun not bringing home the goods, it's the shooter.

The best % I have ever read about was a gent in Argentina who shot over 78% using 5 Benellis and four loaders in a marathon.

hbhobby · September 5, 2014, 10:50 AM

Thanks for the responces
There is no name written on the gun. Just the importer and made in italy.
Now i did check the choke and it looks like first shot(bottom) is modified and second full(top). When i shoot with old betsy it is full only. I would have thought the modified would hlep me hit more?
And i do believe that it is the shooter. But why i do ok with old betsy birds and clays but not real birds with new o/u but clays ok is why i am confused. I am planning on going out with some experienced shooters and letting them watch to see what i am doing wrong. But more opinions are always helpful

BigJimP · September 5, 2014, 11:32 AM

Take the gun to a pattern board....and fire at a 3" dot ...at 20 - 25 yds....and see what you find for Point of Impact....as well as how the pattern looks in a 30" circle.

Maybe one or both barrels are not hitting where you are looking...indicating some stock modifications might be necessary.

cohoskip · September 5, 2014, 12:20 PM

I grew up hunting doves. IMHO they are the most difficult flying bird to hit.
They will duck and twist. It takes a lot of practice to efficiently bring them down...

hbhobby · September 7, 2014, 11:34 PM

So i went to the range and shot at 25 yards and the first shot (lower) was 8 inches low and left. Secont (top) was dead on. What would cause this? Can it be fixed?

Dreaming100Straight · September 8, 2014, 12:07 AM

You can't tell didly from a single shot with each barrel, as you may well have bucked a shot. Several are needed. If the lower barrel indeed is shooting 8" low, something is wrong and I would expect you to miss clay targets. If I were you, I would first pattern the gun from a sitting position with the aid of a sandbag rest to determine how the gun shoots. Then shoot off hand and standing to see if you are pushing the gun. If one barrel still shoots so low, swap chokes between barrels. If the first barrel now shoots straight, and the other now shoots low, you may have a bad choke.

hbhobby · September 8, 2014, 12:11 AM

I shot 12 shots from each barrel and the area that was "gone" was 8 inches low and left on bottom barrel and for top barrel center was "gone" and i was using my hunting loads 7 1/2 shot since that is the round i will be shooting at dove with.
Chokes are not removable they are built into the gun

**44 AMP** · September 8, 2014, 09:29 AM

8" low and left compared to the other barrel? Your gun is not properly "regulated". (both barrels adjusted by the maker to hit the same point of aim at a given distance)

The classic shotgun standard for patterning is a 30" circle at 40 yards.

Guns with no names tend to be "budget" guns (no matter what you actually pay for one), and the maker may not have done a proper job of regulating the barrels.

Try a few shots on paper at 40 yds just to see if the gun is still shooting one barrel low and left (and how much), also try some different loads, to see if the gun does it with everything, or just one kind of ammo.

If its does, and under warranty, send it back.

If sending it back isn't practical/possible, then you need a good gunsmith. Generally speaking it can be fixed (the gunsmith can tell you if its possible, or not, some guns its not "practical").

The process is labor intensive, as an adjustment has to be made, then the gun has to be fired (with ammo equal to what you are going to use), pattern checked, then adjusted again, shot again, etc., until both barrels are shooting to the same point of aim.

Generally it can be done, but it might cost a lot. Most run of the mill gunsmiths, local gun fixers, etc., are not set up for this kind of work. You need to find the right guy for this kind of work, and talk to them about it, before you decide. The cost of a few phone calls is nothing, compared to what you might have to spend to get the gun properly fixed.

Good Luck!

BigJimP · September 8, 2014, 11:04 AM

With most guns the cost of fixing or regulating the barrels would be cost prohibitive.

If its under warranty ...the mfg may help you...

Barrel regulation is a common issue on a lot of lower priced over unders...sadly.../ and rarely an issue on guns like Beretta and Browning.

jeager106 · September 8, 2014, 11:14 AM

I have NEVER seen an inexpensive double of any type with the barrels "regulated" close to the same p.o.i. Never.
I doubt anyone has.
I agree on patterning the barrels much more than once.

September 4, 2014, 10:24 AM	#1
hbhobby Senior Member Join Date: January 14, 2013 Location: Payson Az Posts: 169	Whats the difference? Recently dove season opened so i took my newest girlfriend out for some birds. When i shoot at the clay piggeons i am about 90% +. But when the real birds fly i cant hit anything. 15 shots for 3 birds down. What could i be doing wrong? When i shoot old betsy i do much better with real birds about same with clays? The newest girlfriend is an over under made in italy. Dont know much more about it than that. Any help is appreciated. I like the look and feel of the gun but if it dont bring home the goods it does me no good

September 4, 2014, 02:04 PM	#3
BigJimP Senior Member Join Date: February 23, 2005 Posts: 13,195	There is no way to tell what you're doing ..over the internet...someone would have to watch you shooting...to see where your fundamentals are falling apart. It could be any number of things....lack of follow thru, a bad mount, not enough lead, too much lead.../maybe the gun doesn't fit you the way it should..... -------------- In my opinion, if you can shoot 90 our of 100, with a low gun, on a windy day on a regulation Skeet field...you should be able to do something better than 60 or 70% probably ....for Quail or Doves... Maybe you're "slapping" at a bird or "snapping off a shot" ...vs taking a smooth and controlled shot ...and a good solid follow thru.../ but I can't tell unless I was watching you shoot.... Last edited by BigJimP; September 4, 2014 at 02:24 PM.

September 5, 2014, 12:20 PM	#8
cohoskip Senior Member Join Date: October 10, 2007 Location: Chimacum, WA Posts: 424	I grew up hunting doves. IMHO they are the most difficult flying bird to hit. They will duck and twist. It takes a lot of practice to efficiently bring them down... __________________ To err is human, to forgive divine Neither is Marine Corps policy... NRA Life Member

September 8, 2014, 09:29 AM	#12
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,846	8" low and left compared to the other barrel? Your gun is not properly "regulated". (both barrels adjusted by the maker to hit the same point of aim at a given distance) The classic shotgun standard for patterning is a 30" circle at 40 yards. Guns with no names tend to be "budget" guns (no matter what you actually pay for one), and the maker may not have done a proper job of regulating the barrels. Try a few shots on paper at 40 yds just to see if the gun is still shooting one barrel low and left (and how much), also try some different loads, to see if the gun does it with everything, or just one kind of ammo. If its does, and under warranty, send it back. If sending it back isn't practical/possible, then you need a good gunsmith. Generally speaking it can be fixed (the gunsmith can tell you if its possible, or not, some guns its not "practical"). The process is labor intensive, as an adjustment has to be made, then the gun has to be fired (with ammo equal to what you are going to use), pattern checked, then adjusted again, shot again, etc., until both barrels are shooting to the same point of aim. Generally it can be done, but it might cost a lot. Most run of the mill gunsmiths, local gun fixers, etc., are not set up for this kind of work. You need to find the right guy for this kind of work, and talk to them about it, before you decide. The cost of a few phone calls is nothing, compared to what you might have to spend to get the gun properly fixed. Good Luck! __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

September 4, 2014, 10:55 AM	#2
Doyle Senior Member Join Date: June 20, 2007 Location: Rainbow City, Alabama Posts: 7,167	1. Clay birds don't "wiggle" - dove do. 2. You know exactly the distance, speed, and tragectory of a clay bird. Your brain doesn't know any of those on a dove - it has to mentally calculate them. The mere fact that all dove are not exactly the same size is enought to throw a wrinkle into the mental distance calculation.

September 4, 2014, 02:18 PM	#4
jmr40 Senior Member Join Date: June 15, 2008 Location: Georgia Posts: 10,809	To be honest, 5 shots per bird is just about average. I see a lot worse, and it takes a very good shooter to hit 50%.

September 5, 2014, 10:50 AM	#6
hbhobby Senior Member Join Date: January 14, 2013 Location: Payson Az Posts: 169	Thanks for the responces There is no name written on the gun. Just the importer and made in italy. Now i did check the choke and it looks like first shot(bottom) is modified and second full(top). When i shoot with old betsy it is full only. I would have thought the modified would hlep me hit more? And i do believe that it is the shooter. But why i do ok with old betsy birds and clays but not real birds with new o/u but clays ok is why i am confused. I am planning on going out with some experienced shooters and letting them watch to see what i am doing wrong. But more opinions are always helpful

September 5, 2014, 11:32 AM	#7
BigJimP Senior Member Join Date: February 23, 2005 Posts: 13,195	Take the gun to a pattern board....and fire at a 3" dot ...at 20 - 25 yds....and see what you find for Point of Impact....as well as how the pattern looks in a 30" circle. Maybe one or both barrels are not hitting where you are looking...indicating some stock modifications might be necessary.

September 7, 2014, 11:34 PM	#9
hbhobby Senior Member Join Date: January 14, 2013 Location: Payson Az Posts: 169	So i went to the range and shot at 25 yards and the first shot (lower) was 8 inches low and left. Secont (top) was dead on. What would cause this? Can it be fixed?

September 8, 2014, 12:07 AM	#10
Dreaming100Straight Senior Member Join Date: February 3, 2013 Posts: 1,235	You can't tell didly from a single shot with each barrel, as you may well have bucked a shot. Several are needed. If the lower barrel indeed is shooting 8" low, something is wrong and I would expect you to miss clay targets. If I were you, I would first pattern the gun from a sitting position with the aid of a sandbag rest to determine how the gun shoots. Then shoot off hand and standing to see if you are pushing the gun. If one barrel still shoots so low, swap chokes between barrels. If the first barrel now shoots straight, and the other now shoots low, you may have a bad choke.

September 8, 2014, 12:11 AM	#11
hbhobby Senior Member Join Date: January 14, 2013 Location: Payson Az Posts: 169	I shot 12 shots from each barrel and the area that was "gone" was 8 inches low and left on bottom barrel and for top barrel center was "gone" and i was using my hunting loads 7 1/2 shot since that is the round i will be shooting at dove with. Chokes are not removable they are built into the gun

September 8, 2014, 11:04 AM	#13
BigJimP Senior Member Join Date: February 23, 2005 Posts: 13,195	With most guns the cost of fixing or regulating the barrels would be cost prohibitive. If its under warranty ...the mfg may help you... Barrel regulation is a common issue on a lot of lower priced over unders...sadly.../ and rarely an issue on guns like Beretta and Browning.

September 8, 2014, 11:14 AM	#14
jeager106 Junior member Join Date: November 24, 2006 Location: N.E. Oh. Posts: 527	I have NEVER seen an inexpensive double of any type with the barrels "regulated" close to the same p.o.i. Never. I doubt anyone has. I agree on patterning the barrels much more than once.