Grouping. - Page 2

azredhawk44 · August 26, 2009, 11:19 AM

Multiple bullets in the same hole does not magnify wound effectiveness.

You want your bullets to all hit different organs.

3 rounds of 9/40/45/357/44 in the heart (and actually hitting it) is no more effective than 1 or 2 in the same place.

However... a single round each in the heart, lung and spine will disable an attacker more quickly.

A_McDougal · August 26, 2009, 11:43 AM

The easiest answer is:
Switch from pistol to shotgun. 00 buckshot.

As a practical problem, if you are hitting but not stopping the threat, your problem is lack of penetration. Thick clothes, dense target, you got the unlucky box of ammo, whatever. Multiple shots to the heart that don't drop a guy = some type of body armor. Multiple head shots that don't drop a guy = stop aiming at his motorcycle helmet.

Brian Pfleuger · August 26, 2009, 01:49 PM

I'm curious as to what would make you think that your target is going to hold still so you could hit the same spot twice....

I'm no self defense expert but I do know one word that applies.... dynamic.

Xyas · August 26, 2009, 06:06 PM

To answer the question asked of me, no I do not have any dynamic training (don't worry, I'll get some soon!) The point of the topic wasn't exactly just to learn of different ways to get bigger groups...but to also get information as to if shooting over more area of the body is recommended. I know the first post isn't worded in that way, but that's what I wished more to learn about.

The help so far has been greatly appreciated. I've tried speeding up my shots and that has spread out my groups somewhat. I wish I can find a moving target range near me...that would be really nice. Once again, thanks, and continue with more input!

Brian Pfleuger · August 26, 2009, 06:35 PM

The main reason that you don't have to worry about spreading out your shots is that all the things you want/need to hit are pretty well in one place:

as you can see, pretty well every major organ, vein and artery is in or passes through the center of the rib cage. Any bullet that hits a human being from (more or less) the bottom of the ribs on up is going to damage a major organ or artery. With the possible exception of "grazing" wounds.

Secondarily, your target is not going to be standing there getting shot, at least not after the first shot, so even if you are trying to hit the same exact spot you are unlikely to be successful.

WIN71 · August 26, 2009, 07:15 PM

If and when you do get in a life threatening shooting you won't have to worry about your group opening up. It will be difficult enough to get one on target.
There's several reasons for COM practice and training, not the least of which is at least getting a hit in an emergency even at 8-10 inches of error.

Mello2u · August 27, 2009, 12:25 PM

This is an example of real world results of a shooting. Note that 6 law enforcement offices were only able to get two center of mass hits out of 59 shots fired.

This shooting has its own thread, the link to it follows:
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=372758

Glenn E. Meyer · August 27, 2009, 02:30 PM

You don't want to speed up your shooting to increase group size.

Like I said - training is need in this case to appreciate speed/accuracy trade off as compared to theories out of the blue.

45Gunner · August 27, 2009, 11:27 PM

Government training: quick draw from the strong side hip. Three rapid shots center mass. Practice this at varying distances from 5 feet out to 15 yards. This is where most fire fights are going to happen. Longer range stuff is good to practice for your ego but not realistic in a gun battle as intended target(s) will probably not be standing still.

pax · August 28, 2009, 09:35 AM

Glenn is correct.

Spreading out your group size is NOT a desirable goal for self defense shooting.

Accurately placing the bullet exactly where you intend for it to go is a valuable and important goal.

So is being able to do so quickly enough to make a difference. The best accuracy in the world doesn't count if it doesn't arrive on target in time to save your life.

pax

FireForged · September 1, 2009, 08:04 PM

I will always fire at center mass but I wont be disappointed unless I miss the target all together.

GeauxTide · September 1, 2009, 08:11 PM

Pose this question to a LEO or Combat Veteran......

yamaha24 · September 1, 2009, 08:36 PM

Bad enough my wife rubs it in everytime we go to the range,about her tight groupings,, now here to

OH boy...

Madcap_Magician · September 3, 2009, 10:46 AM

Shoot faster until your groups spread out and you have a speed/accuracy combination that you're comfortable with. There's no reason to be scared of not hitting on the second or third shots.... that's irrational. If you don't know if you could hit on the second or third shots, go TRY it. Then you'll know.

serf 'rett · September 3, 2009, 11:17 AM

Sheeesh, if I could hold that kind of group, I'd at least run through a half of mag or more in case the thug had picked up some body armor on their last job. Once I felt I had punched through, then I’d scatter a few more around for effect… IF I could hold that kind of group

.
And if frogs had wings...
Paint me green with envy. Interesting post though.

chopz · September 4, 2009, 02:03 PM

i think you should practice making that smily face like mel gibson in "lethal weapon." i always wanted to be able to do that.

August 26, 2009, 11:43 AM	#27
A_McDougal Member Join Date: May 1, 2009 Posts: 48	The easiest answer is: Switch from pistol to shotgun. 00 buckshot. As a practical problem, if you are hitting but not stopping the threat, your problem is lack of penetration. Thick clothes, dense target, you got the unlucky box of ammo, whatever. Multiple shots to the heart that don't drop a guy = some type of body armor. Multiple head shots that don't drop a guy = stop aiming at his motorcycle helmet. Last edited by A_McDougal; August 26, 2009 at 11:49 AM.

August 26, 2009, 01:49 PM	#28
Brian Pfleuger Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Austin, CO Posts: 19,578	I'm curious as to what would make you think that your target is going to hold still so you could hit the same spot twice.... I'm no self defense expert but I do know one word that applies.... dynamic. __________________ Nobody plans to screw up their lives... ...they just don't plan not to. -Andy Stanley

August 26, 2009, 06:35 PM	#30
Brian Pfleuger Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Austin, CO Posts: 19,578	The main reason that you don't have to worry about spreading out your shots is that all the things you want/need to hit are pretty well in one place: as you can see, pretty well every major organ, vein and artery is in or passes through the center of the rib cage. Any bullet that hits a human being from (more or less) the bottom of the ribs on up is going to damage a major organ or artery. With the possible exception of "grazing" wounds. Secondarily, your target is not going to be standing there getting shot, at least not after the first shot, so even if you are trying to hit the same exact spot you are unlikely to be successful. __________________ Nobody plans to screw up their lives... ...they just don't plan not to. -Andy Stanley

August 26, 2009, 07:15 PM	#31
WIN71 Senior Member Join Date: March 28, 2005 Posts: 729	You worry too much If and when you do get in a life threatening shooting you won't have to worry about your group opening up. It will be difficult enough to get one on target. There's several reasons for COM practice and training, not the least of which is at least getting a hit in an emergency even at 8-10 inches of error. __________________ Air goes in and out. Blood goes 'round and 'round. Any variation on this is a very bad thing. 개인 정보를 보호하십시요

August 27, 2009, 12:25 PM	#32
Mello2u Senior Member Join Date: February 21, 2009 Location: Georgia Posts: 1,424	This is an example of real world results of a shooting. Note that 6 law enforcement offices were only able to get two center of mass hits out of 59 shots fired. This shooting has its own thread, the link to it follows: http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=372758 __________________ NRA Life Member - Orange Gunsite Member - NRA Certified Pistol Instructor "When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that justifies it." Frederic Bastiat

August 26, 2009, 11:19 AM	#26
azredhawk44 Junior member Join Date: September 28, 2005 Location: Mesa, AZ Posts: 6,465	Multiple bullets in the same hole does not magnify wound effectiveness. You want your bullets to all hit different organs. 3 rounds of 9/40/45/357/44 in the heart (and actually hitting it) is no more effective than 1 or 2 in the same place. However... a single round each in the heart, lung and spine will disable an attacker more quickly.

August 26, 2009, 06:06 PM	#29
Xyas Member Join Date: July 2, 2009 Location: Michigan Posts: 87	To answer the question asked of me, no I do not have any dynamic training (don't worry, I'll get some soon!) The point of the topic wasn't exactly just to learn of different ways to get bigger groups...but to also get information as to if shooting over more area of the body is recommended. I know the first post isn't worded in that way, but that's what I wished more to learn about. The help so far has been greatly appreciated. I've tried speeding up my shots and that has spread out my groups somewhat. I wish I can find a moving target range near me...that would be really nice. Once again, thanks, and continue with more input!

August 27, 2009, 02:30 PM	#33
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	You don't want to speed up your shooting to increase group size. Like I said - training is need in this case to appreciate speed/accuracy trade off as compared to theories out of the blue. __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

August 27, 2009, 11:27 PM	#34
45Gunner Senior Member Join Date: August 8, 2009 Location: Boca Raton, FL Posts: 1,902	Government training: quick draw from the strong side hip. Three rapid shots center mass. Practice this at varying distances from 5 feet out to 15 yards. This is where most fire fights are going to happen. Longer range stuff is good to practice for your ego but not realistic in a gun battle as intended target(s) will probably not be standing still. __________________ 45Gunner May the Schwartz Be With You. NRA Instructor NRA Life Member

August 28, 2009, 09:35 AM	#35
pax Senior Member Join Date: May 16, 2000 Location: In a state of flux Posts: 7,520	Glenn is correct. Spreading out your group size is NOT a desirable goal for self defense shooting. Accurately placing the bullet exactly where you intend for it to go is a valuable and important goal. So is being able to do so quickly enough to make a difference. The best accuracy in the world doesn't count if it doesn't arrive on target in time to save your life. pax __________________ Kathy Jackson My personal website: Cornered Cat

September 1, 2009, 08:04 PM	#36
FireForged Senior Member Join Date: November 4, 1999 Location: Rebel South USA Posts: 2,074	I will always fire at center mass but I wont be disappointed unless I miss the target all together. __________________ Life is a web woven by necessity and chance...

September 1, 2009, 08:11 PM	#37
GeauxTide Senior Member Join Date: April 20, 2009 Location: Helena, AL Posts: 4,424	When you think you've heard it all........ Pose this question to a LEO or Combat Veteran......

September 1, 2009, 08:36 PM	#38
yamaha24 Member Join Date: June 29, 2009 Posts: 28	Bad enough my wife rubs it in everytime we go to the range,about her tight groupings,, now here to OH boy...

September 3, 2009, 10:46 AM	#39
Madcap_Magician Senior Member Join Date: August 13, 2009 Location: MN Posts: 668	Shoot faster until your groups spread out and you have a speed/accuracy combination that you're comfortable with. There's no reason to be scared of not hitting on the second or third shots.... that's irrational. If you don't know if you could hit on the second or third shots, go TRY it. Then you'll know.

September 3, 2009, 11:17 AM	#40
serf 'rett Senior Member Join Date: June 25, 2009 Location: Stuttgart, AR Posts: 1,569	Sheeesh, if I could hold that kind of group, I'd at least run through a half of mag or more in case the thug had picked up some body armor on their last job. Once I felt I had punched through, then I’d scatter a few more around for effect… IF I could hold that kind of group . And if frogs had wings... Paint me green with envy. Interesting post though.

September 4, 2009, 02:03 PM	#41
chopz Senior Member Join Date: June 6, 2007 Posts: 184	i think you should practice making that smily face like mel gibson in "lethal weapon." i always wanted to be able to do that.