Tip up barrels

simonrichter · October 2, 2013, 04:32 AM

Just out of curiosity: Are there any others makers besides Beretta and Taurus producing pistols with tip up barrels? This system is so practical yet it does not seem to be too common in simple blowbacks apart from these two brands...

JimmyR · October 2, 2013, 05:22 AM

Personally, I have never seen a modern tip-up barrel not made by one of those two. I keep thinking there is an old, out of production tip up barrel pistol made by someone, but I can't remember who.

I have the Beretta Tomcat (3032, 32 ACP) and the Minx (950B, 22 Short). I love both of them, and they make great little pocket guns.

CPO15 · October 2, 2013, 06:23 AM

Do "top break" revolvers count?

**Mike Irwin** · October 2, 2013, 09:21 AM

The only other one that I can think of off the top of my head is the M1908 Steyr...

SpareMag · October 2, 2013, 10:30 AM

I agree...the tip-up Tomcat is the only semi-auto my wife can use.

I think the issue is the lack of an extractor, which is mandated by the tip-up design.

Still, if this country can develop a semi-auto revolver, an extractor-enabled tip-up should be doable...affordability might be an issue...pity...I would certainly look very hard at a nice 9 tip-up for the wife.

**Mike Irwin** · October 2, 2013, 10:41 AM

"I think the issue is the lack of an extractor, which is mandated by the tip-up design."

Actually, it's not. The Taurus PT-22 doesn't have an extractor. It relies on residual chamber pressure to kick the shell out.

Walt Sherrill · October 2, 2013, 01:04 PM

Quote:

"I think the issue is the lack of an extractor, which is mandated by the tip-up design."

Quote:

Actually, it's not. The Taurus PT-22 doesn't have an extractor. It relies on residual chamber pressure to kick the shell out.

Seems as though you're arguing with yourself... He wrote that the LACK of an extractor is mandated by the tip-up design. It may not be mandated, but it sure is a simpler design without an extractor built into the slide.

Bill DeShivs · October 2, 2013, 02:41 PM

Le Francais .25.
I believe there was a JoLoAr model with a tip-up barrel, too.

**Mike Irwin** · October 2, 2013, 02:44 PM

Oops!

Read that one wrong...

James K · October 2, 2013, 03:05 PM

Tip up barrels are very convenient for folks who have trouble working a slide, but an extractor would interfere with the barrel movement. Since an extractor is needed for a locked breech pistol, tip ups are limited to blowback operation where pressure pushes the fired case out of the chamber and operates the slide. While most tip ups are in small calibers, the Jo-Lo-Ar was made in .380 and 9mm Largo (IIRC, it was also available in 9x19, but I have never seen one.)

Jim

SpareMag · October 2, 2013, 03:35 PM

And this caliber issue confuses me. The Tomcat was in .32, 22 and _maybe_ 380?

But it seemes to me, the larger the cartridge, the more power, the LESS need for the extractor to extract anything.

So I see the value in an extractor taking out unspent rounds, but don't see the need for properly-firing rounds.

What am I missing???

KyJim · October 2, 2013, 09:43 PM

Quote:

What am I missing???

A straight blowback pistol normally results in more felt recoil. Beretta used to make a .380 but it was pretty large for a .380 and that helped soak up recoil.

twhidd · October 2, 2013, 10:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpareMag

And this caliber issue confuses me. The Tomcat was in .32, 22 and _maybe_ 380?

The Tomcat is only chambered in .32. It is the Beretta Bobcat that is chambered in .22 as well as .25. Beretta also made a the model 950 which had a tip up barrel that was chambered in 22 short and also .25 auto.

RJay · October 2, 2013, 10:17 PM

An extractor is not needed for properly firing rounds

It is only when you have a failure to fire round that an extractor would be nice. Without one, instead of racking the slide, ejecting the bad round and chambering a new fresh round, you have to hold up your hand to the bad guy and say " Wait just a minute " break open the gun, fish out the shell with your finger nails, close the gun and then rack the slide. then you turn to the bad guy and " OK. we can party again." The Tom Cat was never made in .22 or .25, Its little brother , the Model 21 was. AFAIK It was never made in 380, the way the slides crack on the .32, wow, the 380 would really do a job on the frame.

JimmyR · October 2, 2013, 11:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpareMag

And this caliber issue confuses me. The Tomcat was in .32, 22 and _maybe_ 380?

Short (and probably still incomplete) history of the major tip-up barrel pistols by Beretta

Model 950B- Chambered in .22 Short (Minx) or 25 ACP (Jetfire).
Model 21- Chambed in .22LR or 25ACP (Bobcat)
Model 3032- Chambered in 32 ACP (Tomcat*)
*a variation of the 3032 was made with night sights, and dubbed Alleycat
Model 86- Chambered in 380 ACP (Cheetah**)
**The Cheetah name is applied to Beretta's Models 81, 82, 83, 84, 85, 86, 87, and 89. Only the 86 has the tip-up barrel.

simonrichter · October 3, 2013, 07:54 AM

So, does Taurus make any others apart from the PT22 / PT22 ply?

Skans · October 3, 2013, 07:58 AM

COP 357.

Rifleman1776 · October 3, 2013, 08:16 AM

We all forgot the Stevens Tip Up pistol.
However, most today would call it a break open style.

James K · October 3, 2013, 11:41 AM

There have been many tip up single shot pistols, but I believe the OP was referring to auto pistols having tip up barrels for loading/unloading.

Jim

simonrichter · October 3, 2013, 12:14 PM

yes, I meant neither single shot pistols nor top-break revolvers, just semiautos of the Beretta style.

Bill DeShivs · October 3, 2013, 02:12 PM

Beretta also made the Model 20. It was basically a double-action 950. It was available in .25 only. It was phased out for the larger model 21.

aarondhgraham · October 4, 2013, 10:12 AM

From Wikipedia:

Quote:

The model 86 is also chambered for the .380 ACP (9 mm Short) cartridge, but differs significantly from other models in the series, because it has a redesigned front end with a tip-up barrel that hinges at the muzzle to open the breech. This allows the shooter to load a cartridge directly into the chamber and not have to operate the slide.

Click here for a picture.

The only problem with this gun is that it is discontinued,,,
The used ones I have seen were all priced out-of-reach for my wallet.

Aarond

.

James K · October 4, 2013, 12:45 PM

Hi, RJay,

"Close the gun and then rack the slide." Probably not. The Beretta guns have slide serrations, but many of those guns do not. And lots of luck racking the slide on a Jo-Lo-Ar 9mm Largo. I can't do it and there are no serrations.

Jim

Jim Watson · October 4, 2013, 12:55 PM

Everybody likes to mention the Beretta 86. It is not as easy to operate as the .22, 25, and .32. The barrel latch is on the right side and has to be unlatched and relatched to load the gun. You don't have to haul back the slide, but the "manual of arms" is not all that simple.

October 2, 2013, 04:32 AM	#1
simonrichter Senior Member Join Date: December 3, 2011 Location: Austria Posts: 757	Tip up barrels Just out of curiosity: Are there any others makers besides Beretta and Taurus producing pistols with tip up barrels? This system is so practical yet it does not seem to be too common in simple blowbacks apart from these two brands... __________________ "Get off of my lawn!" Walt Kowalski . ISSC PAR .223

October 2, 2013, 09:21 AM	#4
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,379	The only other one that I can think of off the top of my head is the M1908 Steyr... __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

October 2, 2013, 10:41 AM	#6
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,379	"I think the issue is the lack of an extractor, which is mandated by the tip-up design." Actually, it's not. The Taurus PT-22 doesn't have an extractor. It relies on residual chamber pressure to kick the shell out. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

October 2, 2013, 02:41 PM	#8
Bill DeShivs Senior Member Join Date: April 7, 2006 Posts: 10,978	Le Francais .25. I believe there was a JoLoAr model with a tip-up barrel, too. __________________ Bill DeShivs, Master Cutler www.billdeshivs.com

October 2, 2013, 02:44 PM	#9
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,379	Oops! Read that one wrong... __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

October 2, 2013, 05:22 AM	#2
JimmyR Senior Member Join Date: February 4, 2012 Posts: 1,273	Personally, I have never seen a modern tip-up barrel not made by one of those two. I keep thinking there is an old, out of production tip up barrel pistol made by someone, but I can't remember who. I have the Beretta Tomcat (3032, 32 ACP) and the Minx (950B, 22 Short). I love both of them, and they make great little pocket guns.

October 2, 2013, 06:23 AM	#3
CPO15 Senior Member Join Date: June 6, 2010 Location: Near Fincastle, VA Posts: 148	Do "top break" revolvers count?

October 2, 2013, 10:30 AM	#5
SpareMag Senior Member Join Date: February 7, 2012 Posts: 514	I agree...the tip-up Tomcat is the only semi-auto my wife can use. I think the issue is the lack of an extractor, which is mandated by the tip-up design. Still, if this country can develop a semi-auto revolver, an extractor-enabled tip-up should be doable...affordability might be an issue...pity...I would certainly look very hard at a nice 9 tip-up for the wife.

October 2, 2013, 03:05 PM	#10
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Tip up barrels are very convenient for folks who have trouble working a slide, but an extractor would interfere with the barrel movement. Since an extractor is needed for a locked breech pistol, tip ups are limited to blowback operation where pressure pushes the fired case out of the chamber and operates the slide. While most tip ups are in small calibers, the Jo-Lo-Ar was made in .380 and 9mm Largo (IIRC, it was also available in 9x19, but I have never seen one.) Jim

October 2, 2013, 03:35 PM	#11
SpareMag Senior Member Join Date: February 7, 2012 Posts: 514	And this caliber issue confuses me. The Tomcat was in .32, 22 and _maybe_ 380? But it seemes to me, the larger the cartridge, the more power, the LESS need for the extractor to extract anything. So I see the value in an extractor taking out unspent rounds, but don't see the need for properly-firing rounds. What am I missing???

October 2, 2013, 10:17 PM	#14
RJay Senior Member Join Date: November 2, 2005 Location: Arizona Posts: 1,936	An extractor is not needed for properly firing rounds It is only when you have a failure to fire round that an extractor would be nice. Without one, instead of racking the slide, ejecting the bad round and chambering a new fresh round, you have to hold up your hand to the bad guy and say " Wait just a minute " break open the gun, fish out the shell with your finger nails, close the gun and then rack the slide. then you turn to the bad guy and " OK. we can party again." The Tom Cat was never made in .22 or .25, Its little brother , the Model 21 was. AFAIK It was never made in 380, the way the slides crack on the .32, wow, the 380 would really do a job on the frame. __________________ Ron James

October 3, 2013, 07:54 AM	#16
simonrichter Senior Member Join Date: December 3, 2011 Location: Austria Posts: 757	So, does Taurus make any others apart from the PT22 / PT22 ply? __________________ "Get off of my lawn!" Walt Kowalski . ISSC PAR .223

October 3, 2013, 07:58 AM	#17
Skans Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2008 Posts: 11,132	COP 357.

October 3, 2013, 08:16 AM	#18
Rifleman1776 Senior Member Join Date: April 25, 2010 Location: Arkansas Posts: 3,309	We all forgot the Stevens Tip Up pistol. However, most today would call it a break open style.

October 3, 2013, 11:41 AM	#19
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	There have been many tip up single shot pistols, but I believe the OP was referring to auto pistols having tip up barrels for loading/unloading. Jim

October 3, 2013, 12:14 PM	#20
simonrichter Senior Member Join Date: December 3, 2011 Location: Austria Posts: 757	yes, I meant neither single shot pistols nor top-break revolvers, just semiautos of the Beretta style. __________________ "Get off of my lawn!" Walt Kowalski . ISSC PAR .223

October 3, 2013, 02:12 PM	#21
Bill DeShivs Senior Member Join Date: April 7, 2006 Posts: 10,978	Beretta also made the Model 20. It was basically a double-action 950. It was available in .25 only. It was phased out for the larger model 21. __________________ Bill DeShivs, Master Cutler www.billdeshivs.com

October 4, 2013, 12:45 PM	#23
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Hi, RJay, "Close the gun and then rack the slide." Probably not. The Beretta guns have slide serrations, but many of those guns do not. And lots of luck racking the slide on a Jo-Lo-Ar 9mm Largo. I can't do it and there are no serrations. Jim

October 4, 2013, 12:55 PM	#24
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,528	Everybody likes to mention the Beretta 86. It is not as easy to operate as the .22, 25, and .32. The barrel latch is on the right side and has to be unlatched and relatched to load the gun. You don't have to haul back the slide, but the "manual of arms" is not all that simple.

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