.38Spec bullet weights?

ZVP · March 24, 2014, 08:08 PM

This may seem somewhat of an odd question but here goes...
I shoot a Model 36 (No Dash). as I undrstand it was designed for the 158gr bullet.
Why then do they make a 125 gr bullet?
I have read several posts where people prefer to use the lighter bullet and claim it dosen;t recoil as much. However, aren't you trading Ft Lbs of energy using the light bullet or does the higher velocity of the light bullet compensate for the weight?
Seriously, I don't get the light bullet thing.
BPDave

Deja vu · March 24, 2014, 08:15 PM

125 grain bullets tend to go faster thus bringing up there energy.

camsdaddy · March 24, 2014, 08:20 PM

Oddly sights are regulated for 158 and most practice range amoo is 130 gr.

Bob Wright · March 24, 2014, 08:33 PM

Not sure what you're calling "range practice ammo" but most of the "re-manufactured" .38 Special I see at my range and gun shops are 158 gr. lead SWC or RNFP, and 148 gr. wadcutters. Do see some 130 FMJ, though, but it is pricier.

Bob Wright

camsdaddy · March 24, 2014, 08:35 PM

Wow I would love to find 148/158. All I can ever find is 130 fmj. Actually looking into reloading so I can find wadcutters.

Bob Wright · March 24, 2014, 08:41 PM

The cartridges I refer to are from Tennessee Cartridge Company, a local firm. The 158 gr. RNFP seems to be popular with the SASS shooters, reason for their popularity.

Bob Wright

Super Sneaky Steve · March 24, 2014, 09:09 PM

Cartridges have a maximum pressure that shouldn't be exceeded.

Larger bullets create more pressure because of their weight and their size (larger bullets reduce volume in the case). Using a smaller bullet you can use more powder while still maintaining the pressure limit.

Knowing this pressure limit we can drive a larger bullet slower, or a lighter bullet faster.

Before hollow points were popular penetration was all that mattered so a 158 grain lead bullet was the standard, now that people carry hollow points the extra velocity attained with the lighter weights create more reliable and violent expantion.

The gold standard for stopping power is the 125jhp .357 magnum. Many other loads try their best to duplicate what this cartridge can do.

Total energy is a calculation that factors both weight and velocity, so the heavier bullet doesn't always give you the most energy.
http://www.handloads.com/calc/quick.asp
A calculator like this can help you determine your energy.

In .38 spl the 158grain bullet did give me the most energy, but in .357 Magnum my 125 grain loads create the most energy.

DaleA · March 24, 2014, 11:22 PM

You owe it to yourself to try out some 125 grain bullets if you haven't done so already. Could be kind of a fun outing to take some 158 grain ammo and some 125 grain ammo to the range and compare them yourself.

The light-and-fast verses the heavy-and-slow debate has been around for some time and I haven't seen a clear winner and personally don't know enough to argue in public one side or the other.

I've said this before - I fired a Ruger LCR .357 with 158 grain bullets and I won't do that again - too hard on my hands. The 125 grain .357 ammunition is okay for me. Your mileage may vary.

Webleymkv · March 24, 2014, 11:46 PM

There are several reasons to load a lighter bullet in a given cartridge, but the most common is to attain higher velocity, and thus more reliable expansion, without the need to increase pressure. .38 Special is a relatively low pressure cartridge and, without bumping up to +P pressure, its rather difficult to drive a 158gr bullet fast enough to reliably expand unless you use a rather long barrel.

If you look at the velocities of various standard pressure .38 Special loadings from 4" barrels, you'll see that the 158gr loads usually run in the 700-800fps range, the 125-130gr loads in the 800-900fps range, and the 110gr loadings in the 900-1000fps range. By and large, you need at least 800fps to get most hollowpoint bullets to reliably expand (and even at that velocity it can sometimes be iffy), so most manufacturers choose to load their standard pressure .38 Special HP loads with lighter bullets.

Now, if you step up to a .38 Special +P, you can more easily break the 800fps threshold with a 158gr bullet, but the recoil will also increase as will the wear and tear on the gun (many older revolvers are not rated to fire +P ammunition).

Nick_C_S · March 25, 2014, 06:32 PM

The model 36 did come out during a time when heavier bullets were king. I even remember buying 200g LRN's in 38 Spl (not+P) - and have shot them through my own Model 36.

The 158 grainer was pretty much the norm for 38 Special ammunition for many years. But even back in the good o'l days, many exceptions could be found (such as the 200's mentioned above).

With the advent of jacketed handgun ammunition, the need for higher velocities for proper terminal expansion became apparent. There's two ways to increase velocity: 1) Increase pressure; and 2) decrease mass. Since pressure is pretty much capped (safely, and realistically), for each cartridge. The only other option was to decrease the bullet mass.

That was the time (70's - early 80's) when lighter bullet weights caught on in popularity.

Today, we have a choice, basically. Physics dictates that there's a trade-off. Mass vs. Velocity. A heavier bullet is going to penetrate better. Rule #1 of terminal ballistics: you must first make a hole. But it may also over-penetrate. A lighter bullet - traveling faster - is going to more readily and reliably expand - but may not sufficiently penetrate through heavy clothing, etc.

Which is better? The next 40 or 50 posts will answer that - with 40 or 50 different answers.

Colt46 · March 25, 2014, 07:25 PM

That can be a real issue in shorter barrels.
I think the 158 loads were standard when the .38 spl was introduced.

sgms · March 25, 2014, 08:11 PM

Thats why I reload the .38. Around here all I can find are the lighter bullets and as all most all my .38s are older and seem to do better with the heavier bullet it is reload time.

Deaf Smith · March 25, 2014, 10:24 PM

All I know is in these two S&W .38s, my first CCW guns...

158gr reloads just shoot fantastic.

With the 64-2 pictured at 20 yards SA it puts every shot right on the small 'x' of a 5 inch black bull and DA rapid fire, shooting isosceles, at 5 yards every shot in that 4 inch bull (and from the leather to!)

The 640 pictured will do similar except at 20 yards I could get only 3 of the 5 to hit the black shooting DA slowly.

Now you can talk about energy all you want but accuracy trumps that energy.

If the gun shoots dead on and gives tight groups, fast tight groups, then use that load!

And the 640-1 below (shown with my old 640 .38) does it to!

And thus I'm sold on the 158gr standard loads.

Deaf

**44 AMP** · March 25, 2014, 11:44 PM

Quote:

I shoot a Model 36 (No Dash). as I undrstand it was designed for the 158gr bullet.
Why then do they make a 125 gr bullet?

Quite simply, because the Model 36 isn't the only .38 caliber gun out there, and short range self defense isn't the only kind of shooting done, even with the .38 Special.

The 158gr bullet was the standard weight when the .38 Special was introduced in 1902, and is still the standard weight for that cartridge. Bullets are judged to be either lighter or heavier than the standard weight for each caliber or cartridge.

In .38 cal, you can find bullets ranging from 110gr to 200gr as fairly common, and even bullets lighter of heavier than those, if you really look (and pay).

Bob Wright · March 26, 2014, 09:46 AM

Ya'll know why the 158 gr. is the "standard" bullet weight for .38 Special? Well, I'm a-going to tell ya.

The .38 Special evolved from the .38 Long Colt (the .38 Colt Army). The original .38 Colt Navy had a bullet running about .378" in diameter. When the .38 Long Colt was introduced, it had a hollow based bullet running 150 grains in weight. The hollow base was to compensate for use in the older guns with larger bores. When the .38 Special was introduced, the use in large bores was not comtemplated, so the bullet used a flat base, the 8 grains being the "plug" filling the former hollow base.

Now you know.

Bob Wright

Colt46 · March 26, 2014, 01:18 PM

Never heard that before. Seems credible enough though.

JawjaBoy · March 26, 2014, 08:27 PM

Different bullet weights can also be helpful in getting fixed sight guns to shoot to point of aim. As a general rule, heavier bullets will tend to shoot higher than lighter bullet weights. So if your gun is shooting a bit low with 125's, try a load using 158's. Conversely, if you are shooting high with 158's, try 125's or 110's.

For the record, the S&W 37 I inherited (1981 production) likes 125's better than 158's. My hand also likes the lighter bullets in that gun!

**Mike Irwin** · March 26, 2014, 09:33 PM

"Never heard that before. Seems credible enough though."

The whole story of the .38 Long Colt is kind of convoluted.

As originally introduced in 1874-75 for the Colt New Line, New House, and New Police revolvers, the .38 Long Centerfire, as it was known then, had a heeled bullet.

That's basically the cartridge that the Navy adopted.

When the Army adopted the round as the official military round, they modified it to take the inside lubricated bullet.

As originally loaded by the military, the .38 Army, or Long Colt as that iteration became known, had a flat-base bullet. It wasn't until later a few years later, and more specifically commercially, that the hollow-base bullet was adopted to allow the round to be used in guns chambered for the older heeled bullet.

While the older .38 Long Centerfire and the later .38 Long Colt are not technically the same cartridge (some Long Colt iterations have cases that are slightly longer) they are for all intents and purposes interchangeable.

Here's a good write up on the subject:

http://www.oldammo.com/august04.htm

SIGSHR · March 26, 2014, 09:49 PM

Jeff Cooper didn't get the light bullet thing either, so you are in good company.

ZVP · March 29, 2014, 04:06 PM

Thanks guys! A bunch of worthwhile knowlege and history!
I know what you ment by tayloring bullet weights to different fixed sight revolvers. My Ruger Vaquero shoots dead center with Remington Factory 158gr Lead bullets! Best of all ammo for it. I do load the Remington +P HP's for trail loads as they are second most accurate and devistatingly powerfull!
My Nodel 36 fires centered with the 158gr's but not at 25 yards. It is sighted closer. My Model 10 seems to shoot the 168's well but I am still experimenting with it, since it's my latest revolver purchase.
Ha-Ha it's an honor to be as confused about this as Elmer Keith!!! LOL!
The 130 gr Range ammo hasn't shown me any advantage of accuracy or power.
Most all my reloads are 158 gr. Lead.
Thanks for trying to explain it to a beginner!
ZVP

Dave1911 · March 30, 2014, 01:34 AM

I usually see 38 special in 158 FMJ and 132 FMJ. In +P, 125 JHP. Just tonight I ran across some non +P Zero brand 125 JHP priced like target ammo. Shot very smooth and accurate out of my 15oz Smith 642. It's nice to have a target ammo that shoots so nice and can double as home defense. That 642 is usually not all that fun to shoot but the non +P 125s sure did tame the recoil.

March 24, 2014, 08:15 PM	#2
Deja vu Senior Member Join Date: March 14, 2010 Location: Border of Idaho & Montana Posts: 2,584	125 grain bullets tend to go faster thus bringing up there energy. __________________ Shot placement is everything! I would rather take a round of 50BMG to the foot than a 22short to the base of the skull. all 26 of my guns are 45/70 govt, 357 mag, 22 or 12 ga... I believe in keeping it simple. Wish my wife did as well...

March 25, 2014, 06:32 PM	#10
Nick_C_S Senior Member Join Date: March 21, 2013 Location: Idaho Posts: 5,524	The model 36 did come out during a time when heavier bullets were king. I even remember buying 200g LRN's in 38 Spl (not+P) - and have shot them through my own Model 36. The 158 grainer was pretty much the norm for 38 Special ammunition for many years. But even back in the good o'l days, many exceptions could be found (such as the 200's mentioned above). With the advent of jacketed handgun ammunition, the need for higher velocities for proper terminal expansion became apparent. There's two ways to increase velocity: 1) Increase pressure; and 2) decrease mass. Since pressure is pretty much capped (safely, and realistically), for each cartridge. The only other option was to decrease the bullet mass. That was the time (70's - early 80's) when lighter bullet weights caught on in popularity. Today, we have a choice, basically. Physics dictates that there's a trade-off. Mass vs. Velocity. A heavier bullet is going to penetrate better. Rule #1 of terminal ballistics: you must first make a hole. But it may also over-penetrate. A lighter bullet - traveling faster - is going to more readily and reliably expand - but may not sufficiently penetrate through heavy clothing, etc. Which is better? The next 40 or 50 posts will answer that - with 40 or 50 different answers. __________________ Gun control laws benefit only criminals and politicians - but then, I repeat myself. Life Member, National Rifle Association

March 25, 2014, 07:25 PM	#11
Colt46 Senior Member Join Date: November 25, 2002 Location: Campbell Ca Posts: 1,090	Lighter bullets give more velocity That can be a real issue in shorter barrels. I think the 158 loads were standard when the .38 spl was introduced.

March 25, 2014, 10:24 PM	#13
Deaf Smith Senior Member Join Date: October 31, 2000 Location: Texican! Posts: 4,453	All I know is in these two S&W .38s, my first CCW guns... 158gr reloads just shoot fantastic. With the 64-2 pictured at 20 yards SA it puts every shot right on the small 'x' of a 5 inch black bull and DA rapid fire, shooting isosceles, at 5 yards every shot in that 4 inch bull (and from the leather to!) The 640 pictured will do similar except at 20 yards I could get only 3 of the 5 to hit the black shooting DA slowly. Now you can talk about energy all you want but accuracy trumps that energy. If the gun shoots dead on and gives tight groups, fast tight groups, then use that load! And the 640-1 below (shown with my old 640 .38) does it to! And thus I'm sold on the 158gr standard loads. Deaf __________________ “To you who call yourselves ‘men of peace,’ I say, you are not safe without men of action by your side” Thucydides

March 26, 2014, 01:18 PM	#16
Colt46 Senior Member Join Date: November 25, 2002 Location: Campbell Ca Posts: 1,090	trust but verify? Never heard that before. Seems credible enough though.

March 24, 2014, 08:08 PM	#1
ZVP Senior Member Join Date: June 20, 2009 Posts: 1,102	.38Spec bullet weights? This may seem somewhat of an odd question but here goes... I shoot a Model 36 (No Dash). as I undrstand it was designed for the 158gr bullet. Why then do they make a 125 gr bullet? I have read several posts where people prefer to use the lighter bullet and claim it dosen;t recoil as much. However, aren't you trading Ft Lbs of energy using the light bullet or does the higher velocity of the light bullet compensate for the weight? Seriously, I don't get the light bullet thing. BPDave

March 24, 2014, 08:20 PM	#3
camsdaddy Senior Member Join Date: October 5, 2007 Posts: 397	Oddly sights are regulated for 158 and most practice range amoo is 130 gr.

March 24, 2014, 08:33 PM	#4
Bob Wright Senior Member Join Date: July 10, 2012 Location: Memphis, Tennessee Posts: 2,989	Not sure what you're calling "range practice ammo" but most of the "re-manufactured" .38 Special I see at my range and gun shops are 158 gr. lead SWC or RNFP, and 148 gr. wadcutters. Do see some 130 FMJ, though, but it is pricier. Bob Wright

March 24, 2014, 08:35 PM	#5
camsdaddy Senior Member Join Date: October 5, 2007 Posts: 397	Wow I would love to find 148/158. All I can ever find is 130 fmj. Actually looking into reloading so I can find wadcutters.

March 24, 2014, 08:41 PM	#6
Bob Wright Senior Member Join Date: July 10, 2012 Location: Memphis, Tennessee Posts: 2,989	The cartridges I refer to are from Tennessee Cartridge Company, a local firm. The 158 gr. RNFP seems to be popular with the SASS shooters, reason for their popularity. Bob Wright

March 24, 2014, 09:09 PM	#7
Super Sneaky Steve Senior Member Join Date: August 9, 2011 Posts: 1,250	Cartridges have a maximum pressure that shouldn't be exceeded. Larger bullets create more pressure because of their weight and their size (larger bullets reduce volume in the case). Using a smaller bullet you can use more powder while still maintaining the pressure limit. Knowing this pressure limit we can drive a larger bullet slower, or a lighter bullet faster. Before hollow points were popular penetration was all that mattered so a 158 grain lead bullet was the standard, now that people carry hollow points the extra velocity attained with the lighter weights create more reliable and violent expantion. The gold standard for stopping power is the 125jhp .357 magnum. Many other loads try their best to duplicate what this cartridge can do. Total energy is a calculation that factors both weight and velocity, so the heavier bullet doesn't always give you the most energy. http://www.handloads.com/calc/quick.asp A calculator like this can help you determine your energy. In .38 spl the 158grain bullet did give me the most energy, but in .357 Magnum my 125 grain loads create the most energy.

March 24, 2014, 11:22 PM	#8
DaleA Senior Member Join Date: September 12, 2002 Location: Twin Cities, MN Posts: 5,313	You owe it to yourself to try out some 125 grain bullets if you haven't done so already. Could be kind of a fun outing to take some 158 grain ammo and some 125 grain ammo to the range and compare them yourself. The light-and-fast verses the heavy-and-slow debate has been around for some time and I haven't seen a clear winner and personally don't know enough to argue in public one side or the other. I've said this before - I fired a Ruger LCR .357 with 158 grain bullets and I won't do that again - too hard on my hands. The 125 grain .357 ammunition is okay for me. Your mileage may vary.

March 24, 2014, 11:46 PM	#9
Webleymkv Senior Member Join Date: July 20, 2005 Location: Indiana Posts: 10,446	There are several reasons to load a lighter bullet in a given cartridge, but the most common is to attain higher velocity, and thus more reliable expansion, without the need to increase pressure. .38 Special is a relatively low pressure cartridge and, without bumping up to +P pressure, its rather difficult to drive a 158gr bullet fast enough to reliably expand unless you use a rather long barrel. If you look at the velocities of various standard pressure .38 Special loadings from 4" barrels, you'll see that the 158gr loads usually run in the 700-800fps range, the 125-130gr loads in the 800-900fps range, and the 110gr loadings in the 900-1000fps range. By and large, you need at least 800fps to get most hollowpoint bullets to reliably expand (and even at that velocity it can sometimes be iffy), so most manufacturers choose to load their standard pressure .38 Special HP loads with lighter bullets. Now, if you step up to a .38 Special +P, you can more easily break the 800fps threshold with a 158gr bullet, but the recoil will also increase as will the wear and tear on the gun (many older revolvers are not rated to fire +P ammunition).

March 25, 2014, 08:11 PM	#12
sgms Senior Member Join Date: May 30, 2010 Location: Arizona or Ohio depending Posts: 1,021	Thats why I reload the .38. Around here all I can find are the lighter bullets and as all most all my .38s are older and seem to do better with the heavier bullet it is reload time.

March 26, 2014, 09:46 AM	#15
Bob Wright Senior Member Join Date: July 10, 2012 Location: Memphis, Tennessee Posts: 2,989	Ya'll know why the 158 gr. is the "standard" bullet weight for .38 Special? Well, I'm a-going to tell ya. The .38 Special evolved from the .38 Long Colt (the .38 Colt Army). The original .38 Colt Navy had a bullet running about .378" in diameter. When the .38 Long Colt was introduced, it had a hollow based bullet running 150 grains in weight. The hollow base was to compensate for use in the older guns with larger bores. When the .38 Special was introduced, the use in large bores was not comtemplated, so the bullet used a flat base, the 8 grains being the "plug" filling the former hollow base. Now you know. Bob Wright

March 26, 2014, 08:27 PM	#17
JawjaBoy Member Join Date: August 21, 2013 Posts: 56	Different bullet weights can also be helpful in getting fixed sight guns to shoot to point of aim. As a general rule, heavier bullets will tend to shoot higher than lighter bullet weights. So if your gun is shooting a bit low with 125's, try a load using 158's. Conversely, if you are shooting high with 158's, try 125's or 110's. For the record, the S&W 37 I inherited (1981 production) likes 125's better than 158's. My hand also likes the lighter bullets in that gun!

March 26, 2014, 09:33 PM	#18
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	"Never heard that before. Seems credible enough though." The whole story of the .38 Long Colt is kind of convoluted. As originally introduced in 1874-75 for the Colt New Line, New House, and New Police revolvers, the .38 Long Centerfire, as it was known then, had a heeled bullet. That's basically the cartridge that the Navy adopted. When the Army adopted the round as the official military round, they modified it to take the inside lubricated bullet. As originally loaded by the military, the .38 Army, or Long Colt as that iteration became known, had a flat-base bullet. It wasn't until later a few years later, and more specifically commercially, that the hollow-base bullet was adopted to allow the round to be used in guns chambered for the older heeled bullet. While the older .38 Long Centerfire and the later .38 Long Colt are not technically the same cartridge (some Long Colt iterations have cases that are slightly longer) they are for all intents and purposes interchangeable. Here's a good write up on the subject: http://www.oldammo.com/august04.htm __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

March 26, 2014, 09:49 PM	#19
SIGSHR Senior Member Join Date: September 13, 2005 Posts: 4,700	Jeff Cooper didn't get the light bullet thing either, so you are in good company.

March 29, 2014, 04:06 PM	#20
ZVP Senior Member Join Date: June 20, 2009 Posts: 1,102	Thanks guys! A bunch of worthwhile knowlege and history! I know what you ment by tayloring bullet weights to different fixed sight revolvers. My Ruger Vaquero shoots dead center with Remington Factory 158gr Lead bullets! Best of all ammo for it. I do load the Remington +P HP's for trail loads as they are second most accurate and devistatingly powerfull! My Nodel 36 fires centered with the 158gr's but not at 25 yards. It is sighted closer. My Model 10 seems to shoot the 168's well but I am still experimenting with it, since it's my latest revolver purchase. Ha-Ha it's an honor to be as confused about this as Elmer Keith!!! LOL! The 130 gr Range ammo hasn't shown me any advantage of accuracy or power. Most all my reloads are 158 gr. Lead. Thanks for trying to explain it to a beginner! ZVP

March 30, 2014, 01:34 AM	#21
Dave1911 Member Join Date: August 17, 2013 Location: Colorado Posts: 98	I usually see 38 special in 158 FMJ and 132 FMJ. In +P, 125 JHP. Just tonight I ran across some non +P Zero brand 125 JHP priced like target ammo. Shot very smooth and accurate out of my 15oz Smith 642. It's nice to have a target ammo that shoots so nice and can double as home defense. That 642 is usually not all that fun to shoot but the non +P 125s sure did tame the recoil.