more modern single or double action 38 S&W ???

Magnum Wheel Man · March 17, 2014, 08:19 AM

this weekend I was finishing loading up 650 rounds of 38 S&W... in doing so, I ran across some nickel cases ( I bought at the last gun show ) that appeared to have been sized in 38 Special dies ( smaller than 38 S&W ) that, coupled with the fact that most of the cases I was loading were new Star Line cases... made me wonder if anyone was using these for CASS ??? so if there was a larger framed solid single action that was chambered in 38 S&W, that would be practical for modern CASS shooting ???

or if the cartridge was ever chambered in a more modern double action...

I have a couple single action 38 S&W's but they are older spur trigger... most of my other 38 S&W's are double action pocket guns, & my newest ( stoutest ) of guns in 38 S&W are H&A Safety Police models from the 20's

I am aware of the British revolvers that loaded 38-200... is that the only thing out there in "heavier" double action ???

Magnum Wheel Man · March 17, 2014, 08:42 AM

is this the "most modern" of 38 S&W's ???

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=400570169

Jim Watson · March 17, 2014, 09:17 AM

Pretty much except for rarities.
There is such a thing as a S&W Model 11, which is just a commercial Military & Police in .38 S&W.
Ruger made some Security Sixes in .38 S&W for the Indian (The Subcontinent, not Amerinds.) police, but there are very few of them in US captivity.

When I got my S&W New Model No 3 Target .38-44, the previous owner had been plinking with .38 S&Ws in it. Just to hear it go bang, accuracy was poor. There were reportedly some NM No 3s made for .38 S&W but one would be such a rarity you probably would not want to put wear and tear on it shooting it at CAS.

Bob Wright · March 17, 2014, 09:26 AM

A few years back, Ruger made a batch of their Security Six revolvers (I think that was the model) in .38 S&W for the Indian Government, maybe a few more for former colonial governments.

Bob Wright

micromontenegro · March 17, 2014, 03:27 PM

There's always the S&W Model 32

SaxonPig · March 17, 2014, 04:56 PM

Define "modern." The Terrier (Model 32) and the Regulation Police (Model 33) were made until 1974.

The Model 11 was probably never sold in the U.S. Every example I have heard of came from Canada or another country where the 38 S&W was a standard issue caliber.

James K · March 17, 2014, 08:19 PM

The Terrier was liked by many plainclothes police because it was smaller and lighter than Colt's "Dick Special", even though it was only five shot. But since it was not chambered for the (then) almost universal police cartridge, .38 Special, it was taboo for many forces.

They are hard to get today and are near the collector's item category.

It is no particular secret that simply running a .38 S&W reamer into a .38 Special chamber will let both calibers be used, and some .38 Special chambers will accept .38 S&W as is since the specs overlap.* The .38 S&W bullets may be a bit larger than .357" but not enough to bother anyone using a good S&W or Colt revolver.

*I tried .38 S&W in six S&W .38 Special/.357 revolvers; it fit fine in three of them.

Jim

SaxonPig · March 18, 2014, 05:52 PM

I have several revolvers in 38 S&W and load .358" and .359" lead bullets with good result. I played with this caliber for a while and got 125 JHPs (.357") up to 975 FPS clocked from this Terrier. That's 50 FPS faster than the much feared and revered 38 Special +P fired from a 4" revolver.

Comparing the Terrier to a J frame proves the former is just a tiny bit smaller. Hardly noticeable difference. I only keep this because it's sort of cool.

Webleymkv · March 19, 2014, 02:27 AM

Also, some factory .38 S&W ammunition will fit in some .357 Magnum and .38 Special revolvers. I have a few rounds of Remington factory 145gr LRN .38 S&W ammo that will chamber in the following guns from my collection: S&W M36 no-dash, S&W M13-4, S&W M66-2, S&W M27-2, S&W M28-2, and Webley Mk. IV (the gun I bought them for). The only .38/357 gun I have that they won't chamber in is my new S&W 442-2. However, both once-fired Remington and new Starline cases resized in my Lee Dies only chamber in the Webley.

I suspect that a lot of the factory .38 S&W ammo available today probably uses .358" bullets with a slight hollow base designed to obturate to larger bores. I have read about several .38 S&W revolvers (mainly older Colts) which had bores as tight as .356" so my guess is that the ammo makers use undersize bullets as a margin of safety for guns with tight bores.

As far as making a new gun in .38 S&W, there wouldn't be much point as it's an obsolescent cartridge that uses an unusual diameter bullet. In order to make the gun safe with any and all .38 S&W ammo, you'd have to have chamber and chamber throat dimensions that would preclude it from using the more common .38-caliber bullets without lackluster accuracy (the Remington factory ammo I mentioned previously shot very poorly in my Webley). A better option would be .38 Short Colt as it uses the same diameter bullet as .38 Special and .357 Magnum and can even be safely fired in so-chambered revolvers.

As to why someone would have resized your .38 S&W brass in a .38 Special/.357 Magnum die, I can only guess that they either didn't have the proper dies or were attempting to make ammunition that could be fired in a .38 Special/.357 Magnum revolver (a sort of Wile E. Coyote .38 Short Colt cartridge if you will). I have also heard of people trimming .38 Special brass to make .38 S&W brass usually with less-than-satisfactory results.

**Mike Irwin** · March 19, 2014, 07:08 AM

"Define "modern." The Terrier (Model 32) and the Regulation Police (Model 33) were made until 1974."

Yep, and by that time they were being made on the J frame with the coil spring (as opposed to the original I frame, and the later I frame Improved), so they are the most modern of S&W's .38 S&Ws.

McShooty · March 19, 2014, 04:44 PM

As others have pointed out, the 38 S&W sometimes chambers in a Special chamber. The Remington round nose that has been on some dealer's shelves and marked "Target" chambers in my Model 14-4. They slide right in of their own weight, but a few need a gentle finger push. Winchester 38 S&W will not chamber. The Remingtons perform pretty well, nearly 700 fps and less than 1" five-shot groups at seven yards indoors. It is harder to think of a nicer revolver for firing .38 S&W than a K-38, chamber length aside.

If you handload 38 S&W cases and size them for Special chambers, then use .359 bullets. I am not sure what you have then. Maybe a .38 Special Special? Then, maybe we could think of a reason for doing this?

SIGSHR · March 19, 2014, 06:25 PM

Define "modern" ? I have a near mint No. 2 Mk I made in 1932. Shoots fine, in a pinch, it will do. How long was the Webley Mark IV in production ? Aren't 38 S&W revolvers currently being produced in India ?

Webleymkv · March 20, 2014, 01:20 AM

Quote:

How long was the Webley Mark IV in production ?

At least into the 1950's, if not early 60's. My own Mk. IV was produced in the 50's for issue to police in what was left of Britain's post-WWII empire (I'm pretty sure my came from a batch that was originally issued to the Royal Hong Kong Police).

Magnum Wheel Man · March 20, 2014, 05:54 AM

Thanks for the comments guys... I'd love to add a newer Terrier / J frame to my collection ( if I could ever run across one, & the money for one at the same time )

the cases that were sized in the 38 Special dies were easily noticed by the "line" at the base of the cartridge, where the sizing die ran into the case head... these cases slipped into my 357 chambers, but only up to the base of the case ( they wouldn't insert fully ) the new Starline cases I have would also not insert into my 357 chambers...

Reloading, I use .359" sized cast lead bullets from Hunters Supply, through Midway

If I wasn't long on Cowboy guns, I'd have my buddy that does cartridge conversions on C&B revolvers for me, make me up a pair of 38 S&W open top conversion revolvers so I could wrangle my way into classic cowboy class with them ( already shoot classic class, but I think 45 Colt is the only cartridge aloud ), but since 38 S&W is a vintage cartridge, Starline makes brass for it, & it likely could have found it's way into 36 caliber C&B conversions, I'd think they'd have to at least let me play with it in that class at the local level

)

see what a trouble maker I am

**Mike Irwin** · March 20, 2014, 07:13 AM

I've seen something in the past that said that Webley stopped making the Mk IV at the end of the Korean War.

Revolvers were withdrawn from British military service in 1963.

March 17, 2014, 08:19 AM	#1
Magnum Wheel Man Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2006 Location: Southern Minnesota Posts: 9,333	more modern single or double action 38 S&W ??? this weekend I was finishing loading up 650 rounds of 38 S&W... in doing so, I ran across some nickel cases ( I bought at the last gun show ) that appeared to have been sized in 38 Special dies ( smaller than 38 S&W ) that, coupled with the fact that most of the cases I was loading were new Star Line cases... made me wonder if anyone was using these for CASS ??? so if there was a larger framed solid single action that was chambered in 38 S&W, that would be practical for modern CASS shooting ??? or if the cartridge was ever chambered in a more modern double action... I have a couple single action 38 S&W's but they are older spur trigger... most of my other 38 S&W's are double action pocket guns, & my newest ( stoutest ) of guns in 38 S&W are H&A Safety Police models from the 20's I am aware of the British revolvers that loaded 38-200... is that the only thing out there in "heavier" double action ??? __________________ In life you either make dust or eat dust...

March 17, 2014, 08:42 AM	#2
Magnum Wheel Man Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2006 Location: Southern Minnesota Posts: 9,333	is this the "most modern" of 38 S&W's ??? http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=400570169 __________________ In life you either make dust or eat dust...

March 17, 2014, 04:56 PM	#6
SaxonPig Senior Member Join Date: April 24, 2006 Posts: 1,900	Define "modern." The Terrier (Model 32) and the Regulation Police (Model 33) were made until 1974. The Model 11 was probably never sold in the U.S. Every example I have heard of came from Canada or another country where the 38 S&W was a standard issue caliber. Last edited by SaxonPig; March 18, 2014 at 05:49 PM.

March 19, 2014, 07:08 AM	#10
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	"Define "modern." The Terrier (Model 32) and the Regulation Police (Model 33) were made until 1974." Yep, and by that time they were being made on the J frame with the coil spring (as opposed to the original I frame, and the later I frame Improved), so they are the most modern of S&W's .38 S&Ws. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

March 20, 2014, 05:54 AM	#14
Magnum Wheel Man Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2006 Location: Southern Minnesota Posts: 9,333	Thanks for the comments guys... I'd love to add a newer Terrier / J frame to my collection ( if I could ever run across one, & the money for one at the same time ) the cases that were sized in the 38 Special dies were easily noticed by the "line" at the base of the cartridge, where the sizing die ran into the case head... these cases slipped into my 357 chambers, but only up to the base of the case ( they wouldn't insert fully ) the new Starline cases I have would also not insert into my 357 chambers... Reloading, I use .359" sized cast lead bullets from Hunters Supply, through Midway If I wasn't long on Cowboy guns, I'd have my buddy that does cartridge conversions on C&B revolvers for me, make me up a pair of 38 S&W open top conversion revolvers so I could wrangle my way into classic cowboy class with them ( already shoot classic class, but I think 45 Colt is the only cartridge aloud ), but since 38 S&W is a vintage cartridge, Starline makes brass for it, & it likely could have found it's way into 36 caliber C&B conversions, I'd think they'd have to at least let me play with it in that class at the local level ) see what a trouble maker I am __________________ In life you either make dust or eat dust... Last edited by Magnum Wheel Man; March 20, 2014 at 06:00 AM.

March 17, 2014, 09:17 AM	#3
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,543	Pretty much except for rarities. There is such a thing as a S&W Model 11, which is just a commercial Military & Police in .38 S&W. Ruger made some Security Sixes in .38 S&W for the Indian (The Subcontinent, not Amerinds.) police, but there are very few of them in US captivity. When I got my S&W New Model No 3 Target .38-44, the previous owner had been plinking with .38 S&Ws in it. Just to hear it go bang, accuracy was poor. There were reportedly some NM No 3s made for .38 S&W but one would be such a rarity you probably would not want to put wear and tear on it shooting it at CAS.

March 17, 2014, 09:26 AM	#4
Bob Wright Senior Member Join Date: July 10, 2012 Location: Memphis, Tennessee Posts: 2,989	A few years back, Ruger made a batch of their Security Six revolvers (I think that was the model) in .38 S&W for the Indian Government, maybe a few more for former colonial governments. Bob Wright

March 17, 2014, 03:27 PM	#5
micromontenegro Senior Member Join Date: December 28, 2010 Posts: 647	There's always the S&W Model 32

March 17, 2014, 08:19 PM	#7
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	The Terrier was liked by many plainclothes police because it was smaller and lighter than Colt's "Dick Special", even though it was only five shot. But since it was not chambered for the (then) almost universal police cartridge, .38 Special, it was taboo for many forces. They are hard to get today and are near the collector's item category. It is no particular secret that simply running a .38 S&W reamer into a .38 Special chamber will let both calibers be used, and some .38 Special chambers will accept .38 S&W as is since the specs overlap.* The .38 S&W bullets may be a bit larger than .357" but not enough to bother anyone using a good S&W or Colt revolver. *I tried .38 S&W in six S&W .38 Special/.357 revolvers; it fit fine in three of them. Jim

March 18, 2014, 05:52 PM	#8
SaxonPig Senior Member Join Date: April 24, 2006 Posts: 1,900	I have several revolvers in 38 S&W and load .358" and .359" lead bullets with good result. I played with this caliber for a while and got 125 JHPs (.357") up to 975 FPS clocked from this Terrier. That's 50 FPS faster than the much feared and revered 38 Special +P fired from a 4" revolver. Comparing the Terrier to a J frame proves the former is just a tiny bit smaller. Hardly noticeable difference. I only keep this because it's sort of cool.

March 19, 2014, 02:27 AM	#9
Webleymkv Senior Member Join Date: July 20, 2005 Location: Indiana Posts: 10,446	Also, some factory .38 S&W ammunition will fit in some .357 Magnum and .38 Special revolvers. I have a few rounds of Remington factory 145gr LRN .38 S&W ammo that will chamber in the following guns from my collection: S&W M36 no-dash, S&W M13-4, S&W M66-2, S&W M27-2, S&W M28-2, and Webley Mk. IV (the gun I bought them for). The only .38/357 gun I have that they won't chamber in is my new S&W 442-2. However, both once-fired Remington and new Starline cases resized in my Lee Dies only chamber in the Webley. I suspect that a lot of the factory .38 S&W ammo available today probably uses .358" bullets with a slight hollow base designed to obturate to larger bores. I have read about several .38 S&W revolvers (mainly older Colts) which had bores as tight as .356" so my guess is that the ammo makers use undersize bullets as a margin of safety for guns with tight bores. As far as making a new gun in .38 S&W, there wouldn't be much point as it's an obsolescent cartridge that uses an unusual diameter bullet. In order to make the gun safe with any and all .38 S&W ammo, you'd have to have chamber and chamber throat dimensions that would preclude it from using the more common .38-caliber bullets without lackluster accuracy (the Remington factory ammo I mentioned previously shot very poorly in my Webley). A better option would be .38 Short Colt as it uses the same diameter bullet as .38 Special and .357 Magnum and can even be safely fired in so-chambered revolvers. As to why someone would have resized your .38 S&W brass in a .38 Special/.357 Magnum die, I can only guess that they either didn't have the proper dies or were attempting to make ammunition that could be fired in a .38 Special/.357 Magnum revolver (a sort of Wile E. Coyote .38 Short Colt cartridge if you will). I have also heard of people trimming .38 Special brass to make .38 S&W brass usually with less-than-satisfactory results.

March 19, 2014, 04:44 PM	#11
McShooty Senior Member Join Date: January 4, 2012 Location: Northern Missouri Posts: 480	As others have pointed out, the 38 S&W sometimes chambers in a Special chamber. The Remington round nose that has been on some dealer's shelves and marked "Target" chambers in my Model 14-4. They slide right in of their own weight, but a few need a gentle finger push. Winchester 38 S&W will not chamber. The Remingtons perform pretty well, nearly 700 fps and less than 1" five-shot groups at seven yards indoors. It is harder to think of a nicer revolver for firing .38 S&W than a K-38, chamber length aside. If you handload 38 S&W cases and size them for Special chambers, then use .359 bullets. I am not sure what you have then. Maybe a .38 Special Special? Then, maybe we could think of a reason for doing this?

March 19, 2014, 06:25 PM	#12
SIGSHR Senior Member Join Date: September 13, 2005 Posts: 4,700	Define "modern" ? I have a near mint No. 2 Mk I made in 1932. Shoots fine, in a pinch, it will do. How long was the Webley Mark IV in production ? Aren't 38 S&W revolvers currently being produced in India ?

March 20, 2014, 07:13 AM	#15
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	I've seen something in the past that said that Webley stopped making the Mk IV at the end of the Korean War. Revolvers were withdrawn from British military service in 1963. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.