Sight or point shooting?

[JohnH1963]

I wanted to get a discussion going on sight vs. point shooting. What are your thoughts?

[Glenn E. Meyer]

It's been done a hundred times here. Did you use the search function?

[Deaf Smith]

John,

You shoot with your sights unless you can't see them. Then you shoot as IF you could see them!

It really is that simple.

[JohnH1963]

I did not realize it was such a popular topic. I thought it was just me who wondered about these things Why not have a sticky post if there are so many posts about it?

[KellyTTE]

Because if it weren't for beating dead horses around here, we wouldn't not get much exercise.

[Ticman]

Simple, learn to do both.

[Blue Steel]

You want to be able to do both. Point shooting and aimed fire both have defensible concepts depending on the type of shooting you are doing.

And I personally enjoy new postings and interaction, and not searching out and reading old posts. I would wager almost everything has been discussed here if you searched hard enough. If I wanted to just read I could stick to training manuals and other books, we're here to interact so it gets old seeing people get flamed for asking a question. If he revived an old thread by posting a question then he would get flamed for mining old posts...

...and now I'll climb down off my soapbox...sorry.

[pax]

Just a quick reminder, guys: on a contentious topic like this, it is especially important to remain polite in disagreement. Threads about point shooting and related topics have an unfortunate history of spiralling downwards as time goes on. It does not have to happen, and I hope it does not here.

Thanks, carry on.

pax

[nefprotector]

I basically point shoot I guess. I shoot with both eyes open. Keeping my "eyes" on the target or targets. I use the outline of my gun as my sights so to speak. I keep my attention on the target at all times.

[Uncle Ben]

You shoot with your sights unless you can't see them. Then you shoot as IF you could see them!

Just to clarify, when point-shooting, should you focus on the front of the gun (since you can't see the sights), or should you focus on the target?

[pax]

Ben ~

Focus on the part of the target you'd like to hit.

pax

[BlueTrain]

Well, let me alter this issue by asking about the sights themselves. Some handguns come with some form of night vision sights and I suppose you could have something similiar installed on any handgun that had suitable sights or even just dab on a little white paint. My question is not so much about seeing the sights but rather seeing the target. Presumably many encounters occur at night or otherwise in poor light. While it helps to be able to see the sights, it would be essential to see the target, wouldn't it?

That brings up different issues, I realize, but I don't recall having seen a thread that suggests that might be a bigger problem. When I was doing a lot of shooting at an indoor range, I sometimes used to turn off the lights to see how things would work out but given the circumstances of being at a range, it really wasn't realistic or particularly helpful, though it was an interesting exercise. The short coming was that you couldn't really get it that dark in the first place and turning off lights resulted in an almost more obvious target, even though the sights were next to impossible to see (I never had any luminous sights or anything similiar).

I think it is an interesting and very important subject but most of the discussions seem to be under the assumption that everything happens in broad daylight and that is not always realistic. As with a lot of things with shooting, the limitations of actually shooting at a range, indoors or out tend to remove all of the elements that make the issue difficult to begin with. That is, unless you have the range all to your self or your very own private place to shoot. Rather like training yourself to hunt deer by shooting your deer rifle at the range behind the gun shop. Better than nothing but it isn't that simple.

[Uncle Ben]

Thanks Pax

Would it be a good idea to exclusively train to point shoot when the distance is less than 10 yards (typical in-home confrontation distance) when speed is of high importance?

[OldShooter]

I like the idea of beating the dead horse. We should have a sticky on that because I want to work on my technique. Do you recommend a stick, a shovel, a canoe paddle...? What?

Actually I avoid a lot of threads if it looks like a subject that has been beaten to death, or a "this vs. that" or if it's going to lead to someone saying "just get a glock" or if someone wants help making a decision on what to buy or...
Doesn't leave much to read.

[JohnH1963]

Why do threads on point vs. site get out of control? Its not like we are debating a philosophy or religion. It should be like this is the advantage of this and this is the disadvantage of that. Here are a few techniques for this and here are for that. How can you possibly mess that up?

[threadbare]

Learn to shoot both and also to seamlessly transition from one to another. Maybe try using the muzzle blast as a light source at night.

[Teuthis]

In point shooting one looks at the target, not the gun. It is similar to throwing a rock, or a ball, or a grenade. You look at the target and point the pistol, and you can learn to hit the target with a pistol round, just as you can with a rock or ball, etc. It takes practice to learn, but once you do, I think it stays with you more or less. I still practice it after having to learn it many years ago.

As people age, we see less of the sights anyway. At self defense ranges it can be critical to learn point shooting. Once you learn where your pistol shoots, you can focus on pointing and shooting quite accurately. It's the kind of thing you learn but also must practice with various pistols that you might carry and use.

[JohnH1963]

So what is a good effective point shooting exercise? I can be creative and create my own exercise, but I am wondering what others have used to simulate a point shooting situation.

I see point shooting as a method to lay down some shots in events where time is very critical...I mean like milliseconds of time. I figure that if you are firing on someone then they have given you a very good reason. You are so certain of the danger that you are putting your own personal liberty on the line...if you make the wrong decision then the possibility exists of arrest and imprisonment.

In most scenarios, you are drawing and firing because the person is facing you, has a firearm in hand ready to fire and is within the effective range of that weapon... In those situations I see point shooting as the only way to go. Finding a good sight takes some additional milliseconds of time which may make the difference.

I see the sight shooting as more for soldiers or others who are on the offensive. In defensive situatons, I see point shooting as the only way to go.

[Dre_sa]

For me, point shooting has been about the motions to take a shot i.e; draw-point-shoot. It's all about speed for this particular exercise. Of course accuracy is paramount, but this comes with practice.
The technique I have used and have developed for myself is to focus on the target with both eyes open, raise the gun to point at the target, (I personally get 2 guns in my field of vision because I have 2 eyes focused on something further away) get the target between the 'guns' and fire. it takes practice to be able to place the shot exactly where you want it, and I am still working on tightening my groups, but they are definitely adequate for SD situations.

using sights are for those times when your shots are deliberate and purposefully aimed at a specific point on the target. this is not to say that point shooting is not deliberate or anything like that, but to use the sights takes time which you may not have. for me the process of sight shooting is;

draw-raise weapon-find sights-sights on target-shoot.

This too can be practiced to the point of autonomy, but I have always held the opinion that if you train to get speed in this scenario, its just as good as point shooting.
Also you can easily use two eyes open for this technique, but your dominant eye will be the one over the sights.

Either way, practice one at a time and become proficient at it. make sure you can use one in a panic situation. It matters not which one you use, as long as you are able to get rounds on target in a timely, accurate manner.

[tlm225]

IMO both point shooting and aimed have their place and time. That will be dependent on distance, lighting and individual skill. I doubt that anyone would argue that aimed fire is essential at one yard so the question comes down to how far away one can effectively hit while point shooting. For me it's +/- 7 yards on a 8" target at speed, farther than that I need to transition to sighted fire. For others the distance will be more or less depending on their individual ability.

Another factor to bear in mind is a situation where it's appropriate to hold an adversary at gun point (i.e., he's demonstrated that he's a threat but it's not yet time to shoot). Been there, done that many times in the line of duty. In those cases where the distance is beyond my normal comfort zone for point shooting I'll index the sights on the chest area then shift my focus to the person. I'd better be watching him, especially his hands, to be able to judge his actions and make a shoot/no shoot decision as the incident evolves.

[ChileVerde1]

It depends on the speed, distance, direction.... of the target, not to mention about ten thousand other variables. My agency teaches the Isosceles stance based on the premise that when executed often enough to become "muscle memory" you're automatically pointed in on target with arms extended toward the target in the classic triangle formation. I've tested this theory by drawing on a stationary target from my duty belt (in a controlled and safe location on a range with a backdrop) with eyes closed and firing. It is argued that this approach ensures that you're on target even under the most stressful of conditions, the poorest light conditions, etc....

I've found that rounds do automatically fall on target most of the time say to about the 10-12yd line and sometimes on the 15. One caveat though, I've been shooting from this stance for about one third of my life so repetitions matter! I've found laser training aids also support this theory when I've used them for dry firing practice and I strongly recommend them. Back to my train of thought though, obviously, at the 15 you would typically be picking up or using your sights already. You almost have to in my experience.

Finally, in our course of fire, we "point" shoot at the 1.5yd line from the hip and start extending out in the Isosceles at the three while still point shooting. We start using our sights at the 7yd line and then totally rely on them at the 15, 25, and sometimes 50.

[Viper225]

At our Club we have an IDPA Style Defensive Pistol Match each month.
We have all stages set up either 6 shots or 6 and a Reload and another 6.
That would be 5 and 5 for CCW Division.
We set up 4 different Stages every month. We have a Car Door Simulator. A Car Hood Simulator. A Store Counter Simulator. We have a wheeled Trash Can for taking out the trash. A Car Tire and Lug Wrench for changing the tire. And Folding seats for a Bus Scenario, etc.
We do use IDPA Scoring, so it is all about TIME + the SCORE on the Targets. The higher the number the worse you did.
What I have learned shooting the match. You normally use your sights when the shots are longer. You tend to go to Point Shooting on close targets to gain speed. This seems to come together the more you shoot the matches.
The more you shoot, the more confident you become in your skill and equipment. Friendly Competition help this come together.

[7677]

Here is my take on pointshooting and sighted fire which IMHO are both necessary components of a defensive shooting program.

The "Sight Continuum" is merely a guide to which shooting technique you will use in a deadly force situation.

I came up with the sight continuum to explain when to use point shooting and when to use the sights by the urgency of making shot and the distance involved. Other things like movement, and the use of cover are other considerations that play a part in the sight continuum.

The final piece of sight continuum came to me one day while watching simunitions training and I noticed that people A) do as they were trained or B) spray and prey or C) nothing (until to late). Well sometimes people do what they were trained a little to well. No one every told them that they could go from the mind set of I’m going to draw and take a aimed shot to of oh crap I need to make the shot right now. When this happened most shooters didn’t use point shooting and make the shot but rushed the draw stroke which usually threw the gun even more off target and then it took them even longer to recover their sight picture and by this time you could play connect the dots on them.

The distance which most handgun fights take place at are within 10 feet and the victim is usually reacting to the attacker which further puts them behind the reactionary curve. The only way I have found to off set the attackers advantage is for the victim to move, draw and fire the second the gun comes on target and continue to zipper up the body until the attacker is down.

The "Sight Continuum" starts with "hip shooting" and continues to the use of sights and this give a person the ability to shoot at any point within their draw stoke one hand or two handed. In combat, I did not have to think about which method I would use as it just came to me.

The body is amazing as if you keep the weapon with the centerline of the body or the nose with the gun in the peripheral vision the mind will determine when to take the shot. All you have to do is focus on the spot you intend to hit. Your subconscious mind will worry about the alignment of the gun and the spot your focusing on. This is especially useful while shooting and moving fast.

When I attempt to move and use aimed shooting, I have found that if I attempt to aim to make the same shot it slows me down as I have to consciously think about the front sight, the target, and when to fire. This is the reason so many schools teach the groucho walk. While I'm in the process of trying to align my front sight on the target, I tend to slow down my movement in order to keep the front sight from bouncing and begin to get tunnel vision on the front sight.

The shooter’s focus should be on the target with their surrounding in their peripheral vision not on the front sight. Continual focusing on the front sight while moving leads to tunnel vision. Furthermore, on the squared range, there are usually no obstructions to trip over but in the real world there are many hazards one can find themselves negotiating in the middle of a gunfight.

In point shooting, the index is very important just as it is with sighted shooting. The index gets the gun on target and with point shooting eye/hand coordination places the bullet on the same spot that the eyes are focused on and with sighted shooting the index gets the gun on target and the gun is brought a little further up to the point where the eyes pick up the sights and verify the gun is on target. As the distance increases, the effectiveness of indexing and eye/hand coordination decreases.

From 0 to 3 feet, or at what is commonly referred to as bad breathe distance, a retention techniques needs to be employed. These Techniques rely heavily on body index with very little to no hand/eye coordination.

Indexing will only take you so far and with all point shooting techniques there still needs to be some degree of hand to eye coordination. The further away the target is from the shooter the shooter goes from relying on indexing and more to the ability of putting rounds on the spot where the eyes are focused on. It is similar to throwing a punch but only at an increased distance. Your fist is replaced by bullets. Index alone will get hits on the target out to 10 yards however you want your point of focus and your point aim to be on the same point (hand/eye coordination).

From 0 to 3 yards, most people use techniques similar to Fairbairn's "Half Hip". With the Half Hip position, I use my body's centerline as an index with my gun in my peripheral vision. This technique relies on both body index and hand/eye coordination.

For extreme close quarter gun fights with “half hip” the shooter needs to explode off the line. The draw of the weapon occurs while the support arm forearm is driven into the attacker throat. The shooter dives the attacker back and zippers up the attackers body.

From 5 to 10 yards, I use either in one handed or two-handed point shooting, which will be under the line of sight, I use my nose as the index. The person uses the index to get the gun on target and the eye/hand coordination places the on the spot where the eyes are focused on.

NOTE: The above yard estimates are not absolute and will change do to shooter and/or target movement.

Aimed shooting comes at the end of my sighting continuum. Why because I can start to draw my weapon and anywhere in the steps of my draw I can point shoot off of body index/eye hand coordination or I can continue to bring the weapon up to eye level and make a precision shot. The steps of the draw that I use are the same with point shooting as with sighted shooting. Time (the urgency of making the shot) combined with distance will determine which method I use in the Sight Continuum.

In closing, I'm not exclusively a "Point Shooter" or a "Sighted Shooter" I simply use whatever method will allow me to go home at the end of the night.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Nice info. Good post and point of view.

[7677]

Movement:

The fact is that standing still during a close quarter fight rather it is with H2H, knife, stick, and/or firearms is not the best tactic and movement is paramount.

How much movement and where to move is usually dictated by the circumstances of the location where the fight is taking place.

Not to sound like a broken record, but the first step is threat recognition. The earlier the threat is identified the more time one has and more distance the enemy has to cross. Just ask anyone that has done the Tueller drill. At 21 feet things happen fast but a person can get off line and beat the charge without much difficulty. However, at 6 feet the enemy can close that ground in a split second and some type of H2H will be used to deflect, strike or move their weapon off of ones centerline. Thus the options are reduced the closer threat is to the shooter. The amount of reaction time available is the reasons why some people have used their sights and other haven't in gunfights.

My approach to evasive footwork looks more like a * then a X. I'm not a big fan of moving backwards and I apply a two step rule to using reward steps. Some of the rearward movement may include taking a step to the rear to get behind cover or performing the In-quartata against a charging enemy.

Forward movement is the best option IMHO. However, the square range mentality has taught most to stand still and to achieve that perfect sight picture and that is the last thing that one wants to do in a gunfight. I have observed to many FoF scenarios that look like the shootout at the OK coral in the movie Tombstone. Both LEO's and criminals freeze in place with about 4 or 5 feet between the LEO's and both had their hands on the gun and they start giving the suspect commands. The suspect moves suddenly and draws while on the move and shoots both officers while they are standing still and in the process of drawing their weapons (yes the suspect used point shooting). The same thing occurs when the suspect has a visible pistol in his hands the LEO's draw their weapons and freeze in place about 4 to 5 feet apart and issue commands. The suspect rapidly moves off line and shoots both while on the move. Action beats reaction.

When the decision to move off line is made, it has to be an explosive move. Movement and the draw needs occur at the same time. If a person has identified the threat and has made a plan of action the first conscience thought should be to get the legs moving and drawing the gun and then shooting. I have observed squared range training come back and haunt officers which tend to hesitate while drawing their weapon and once the weapon cleared leather the lights come on and then they started to move.

I like moving straight forward or forward at a 45 degree angle (between 10 & 11 and 1 & 2 o'clock because I move faster then moving to the left or right (3 and 9 o'clock). Once I pass the charger I either I cut or circle back behind the charger and make any follow up shots. There are times when the straight on advance is preferred over moving to the flanks. The most important thing about movement is it can be used to cover the distance and to keep the enemies gun off your centerline.

Single shot, double tap or bursts.
Another interesting thing that has come to light is the use of the old shoot once assess with a follow up shots when needed. Or a double tap and assess with a follow up shots when needed. In close quarters combat, there is no time or luxury to fire a single shot and assess, as one must be prepared to shoot the threat to the ground.