Vertical Fore Grips

FALPhil · April 28, 2013, 05:42 AM

Quote:

Anyone who tells you they don't need a vertical foregrip on their rifle has never been in a gunfight.

The above quote is attributed to Kyle Lamb of Viking Tactics. I have two questions about it.

1. What tactical activities does a vfg enhance to the point where it becomes a necessity?

2. What in the world did real fighters do concerning those activities prior to the advent of the vfg?

OK, I have three questions.

3. Why would anyone make such an asinine statement?

ClydeFrog · April 28, 2013, 06:49 AM

I'm no tactical Ted or ACE/ISA/SAD/SAS commando but I did watch a Youtube video of Tactical Response's James Yeager saying he doesn't care for tactical fore-grips or the Magpul style; www.Magpul.com .
I can see valid points for both sides. In general, Id want a fore-grip like a Crimsontrace or SIG Sauer Stop-Light for dynamic CQB events or spec ops.
For general carry or PMC type details, I wouldn't want the fore-grip on my "main ax".

I do think the current US Army issue(white light, bi-pod, grip) is a slick piece of kit.

CF

Skadoosh · April 28, 2013, 07:54 AM

Vertgrips are very helpful for controlling the muzzle when shooting fully automatic bursts. Other than that, they don't do much for the shooter when shooting semi-automatic.

Alabama Shooter · April 28, 2013, 09:01 AM

Quote:

3. Why would anyone make such an asinine statement?

All too easy. Because they are selling VFGs. The way you sell stuff as "tactical" to the masses is to imply all high speed, low drag operators use "whatever" and if you don't then you are clearly inexperienced, uneducated, db mall ninja.

Quote:

2. What in the world did real fighters do concerning those activities prior to the advent of the vfg?

I canted my wrist about 45 degrees.

Tucker 1371 · April 28, 2013, 09:32 AM

It boils down to personal preference and the application. For 0-100 yds I prefer one, just for comfort. I just qualified expert (2nd award) on the rifle range this weekend and I did not use it as everything on the USMC known distance rifle qual is over 200yds.

My favorite is the AFG from Magpul, I used one in the sandbox. It's awkward at first but once you get used to it it's hard to get used to anything else.

Once again, IMHO the bottom line on VFGs is personal preference.

Haz251 · April 28, 2013, 03:34 PM

It's really all personal preference. I like em. But I really only use them as a reference point for my support hand.

Bartholomew Roberts · April 28, 2013, 04:07 PM

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=406785

I started a Rifle thread discussing my 10 or so years of experience with vertical grips and what worked for me.

Tucker 1371 · April 28, 2013, 04:50 PM

Good read Bart! Thanks for that

FALPhil · April 28, 2013, 04:52 PM

B.R., thanks for that link to your previous thread. That was a great write-up and confirms what my intuition was telling me. I have never been comfortable with a vertical fore grip, and while I rarely shoot for speed, I find the AFG much more ergonomic and useful for shooting off hand. However, in truth, I don't shoot measureably better with the AFG than without any grip at all. But, I do shoot much better with no grip and a hasty sling.

Bartholomew Roberts · April 28, 2013, 08:34 PM

It also has to do with what you want to accomplish. If I am shooting from a static position for accuracy then I still like to use a more traditional stance that relies on skeletal support. The forward grips work for me in more 3-gun/IDPA type shooting (close and fast). I think one reason people don't appreciate them more is if you are shooting from a firing line at a non-mobile target 100yds or more away, they aren't really that useful.... Especially if it is a range where there is a restriction on the firing rate.

Striker1 · April 28, 2013, 08:41 PM

I don't use one unless I have to...meaning the real estate on the rail or hand guard is too crowded for my hand. They add weight and more importantly bulk so I would weigh the gains carefully.

dstyle47 · April 28, 2013, 09:17 PM

I was told by someone who's opinion I really respected in such matters, that while they were fine if you used them properly, most people should not use them because they encourage you to "pull in" with your support hand, which I was told was a big no no.

Striker1 · April 28, 2013, 10:17 PM

Quote:

I was told by someone who's opinion I really respected in such matters, that while they were fine if you used them properly, most people should not use them because they encourage you to "pull in" with your support hand, which I was told was a big no no.

I would say it depends on what type shooting you are doing. There are times when it is better to pull back with the support hand.

Yung.gunr · April 29, 2013, 04:24 PM

The only vertical ones I would use would be the ones that had the light holder or bipod built in. I'm not a fan of the angle it puts your wrist. I do however have a Magpul AFG on my only EBR and I like it. Much more comfortable/natural for me. I have carpal tunnel in both wrists so angles are important to me.

Stevie-Ray · April 29, 2013, 05:29 PM

I like them. I had a Tango Down on my Colt, but it never really excited me. Then I found a UTG. (Yes, UTG) It fills my hand better and gives me better purchase. Just feels much better all-around.

vaeevictiss · April 29, 2013, 06:51 PM

I am one that never have liked the vfg. One particular thing I've seen I don't like while watching people use them, is it changes the profile and body position.

Just using your off hand on the rail, you are able to tuck in tighter (again, just my observation of what I've seen). With the vfg, people seem to have the chicken wing going on and their arm sticks way out.

I have recently taken a strong liking to (as corny as it sounds) the stance Chris Costa uses in his carbine demonstrations. He pulls the rifle in tight, and extends his other arm down the length of the forearm, grabbing the end of the forearm with a canted wrist.

I tried it out recently and it was unbelievable how steady and controllable it was engaging different size targets at different ranges very quickly.

Bartholomew Roberts · April 29, 2013, 08:05 PM

Vaeevictiss? Woe to the evicted?

vaeevictiss · April 29, 2013, 10:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bartholomew Roberts

Vaeevictiss? Woe to the evicted?

Well, woe to the conquered

SVTCobra306 · April 29, 2013, 10:28 PM

I've shot a lot with and without, with M-4's and M-16A2's. For longer range (300 meter qualification) and accuracy (25m zero) I always took my forward hand grip off. I never used one at all without a rail mount. The biggest advantage of them is keeping yourself from frying your hand. We had Knight's Armament rails on our M-4's in the 82nd Airborne Division, and leading up to deployment we did a lot of CQB live fire training, firing enough rounds in ready-up and similar drills that you could blister your trigger finger if you didn't wear good gloves. In that kind of firing, the rails would get hot enough to burn your hand through the glove, hence everyone used a forward hand grip. Overseas, we used a 150 meter zero rather than a 300, and everyone left their forward hand grip on their rifle.. Some of us had a "normal" one, a few had a bipod version (it makes for a wobbly bipod though), I used a version with a built-in Surefire light, which was very handy since I didn't have to have an extra piece hanging on the rail, and I didn't have to worry about snagging a taped-on pressure switch and wire, plus it weighed a little less than a separate Surefire and hand grip. When you carry your rifle on patrol nearly every day for 18 months, the littlest things like that are a luxury..

Pops1085 · April 30, 2013, 12:54 PM

I have one on both my carbine and my a4 clone and I run them as far to the rear because that is about as close to my natural fighting stance as I can get and it's exactly how my cousins I'm the marines run theirs. I think there is huge difference between competition, "tactical" classes, and actual real world combat. Look at what soldiers and cops do with their rifles compared to civilians who use them in classes or staged competitions.

FireForged · April 30, 2013, 03:24 PM

odd that so many soldiers have done just fine over many many decades without a tacticool foregrip.

Striker1 · April 30, 2013, 05:02 PM

Quote:

odd that so many soldiers have done just fine over many many decades without a tacticool foregrip.

Consider that they also have more stuff mounted on their weapon than in the past...

SVTCobra306 · April 30, 2013, 10:01 PM

Didn't have metal rail forends before.. as I stated, with the regular M4 or M16A2 handgrips heat was usually a non-issue, plus the regular forend isn't painful to hang onto like the rail system. Yes, they make covers for them.. no, not every M-4 ends up with those on it, and if they do they get dirty/damaged/lost easily. Try carrying around an AR with a front rail and nothing to hang onto up there but a bare rail, and imagine doing that for 10 hours or more a day for a year.

FWIW myself and an awful lot of other current and former combat arms Soldiers shake our heads at "tactical" and "tacticool" crap. Most of the time it's just garbage to hang off a rifle somewhere, or an otherwise pedestrian bag that has MOLLE loops on it for no reason, or anything in ACU digital camo (the worst camo ever btw). I see a lot of AR-15 type rifles with 15 pounds of garbage hanging off of them, miles of rails that are pretty much useless, etc. I'm not a promoter of all that crap. My ArmaLite has a set of normal midlength forends on it, a Bushnell optic that was 1/5 the price of an Aimpoint and I can't tell the difference in performance for my purposes, and the same CAA pistol grip and Mamba Geronimo 3-point sling that I carried on my last trip to Baghdad. It actually does not have a vertical foregrip in it.. there is no need. I will probably not shoot as many rounds out of it in its entire life as I would in a couple days of CQB live fire training back at Bragg.

ClydeFrog · April 30, 2013, 10:23 PM

As a veteran; active duty, lower enlisted, 1989-1993, I never really cared for the "new" ACU digital camo format.

FWIW; the US Army is now going back to the original plan of buying(procurement

) of MultiCam, www.CryePrecision.com .

The brass & CSMs were impressed with the MultiCam format in SW Asia.

ClydeFrog

Brit · April 30, 2013, 10:32 PM

You need to be able to move, quickly, flop down on the deck, stuff like that!

A forward piece, sticking down, it is in the way. Fix bayonets! Yes it could still happen, think that bit would not be in the way.

You hump a rifle, sling on your shoulder? Sling it off, bits sticking down? Good luck.

April 28, 2013, 06:49 AM	#2
ClydeFrog Junior member Join Date: May 1, 2010 Posts: 5,797	Background... I'm no tactical Ted or ACE/ISA/SAD/SAS commando but I did watch a Youtube video of Tactical Response's James Yeager saying he doesn't care for tactical fore-grips or the Magpul style; www.Magpul.com . I can see valid points for both sides. In general, Id want a fore-grip like a Crimsontrace or SIG Sauer Stop-Light for dynamic CQB events or spec ops. For general carry or PMC type details, I wouldn't want the fore-grip on my "main ax". I do think the current US Army issue(white light, bi-pod, grip) is a slick piece of kit. CF

April 28, 2013, 07:54 AM	#3
Skadoosh Senior Member Join Date: December 13, 2010 Location: Virginia Beach Posts: 2,016	Vertgrips are very helpful for controlling the muzzle when shooting fully automatic bursts. Other than that, they don't do much for the shooter when shooting semi-automatic. __________________ NRA Life Member USN Retired

April 28, 2013, 09:32 AM	#5
Tucker 1371 Senior Member Join Date: December 29, 2008 Location: East TN Posts: 2,649	It boils down to personal preference and the application. For 0-100 yds I prefer one, just for comfort. I just qualified expert (2nd award) on the rifle range this weekend and I did not use it as everything on the USMC known distance rifle qual is over 200yds. My favorite is the AFG from Magpul, I used one in the sandbox. It's awkward at first but once you get used to it it's hard to get used to anything else. Once again, IMHO the bottom line on VFGs is personal preference. __________________ Sgt. of Marines, 5th Award Expert Rifle, 237/250 Expert Pistol, 382/400. D Co, 4th CEB, Engineers UP!! If you start a thread, be active in it. Don't leave us hanging. OEF 2011 Sangin, Afg. Molon Labe

April 28, 2013, 04:50 PM	#8
Tucker 1371 Senior Member Join Date: December 29, 2008 Location: East TN Posts: 2,649	Good read Bart! Thanks for that __________________ Sgt. of Marines, 5th Award Expert Rifle, 237/250 Expert Pistol, 382/400. D Co, 4th CEB, Engineers UP!! If you start a thread, be active in it. Don't leave us hanging. OEF 2011 Sangin, Afg. Molon Labe

April 28, 2013, 04:52 PM	#9
FALPhil Senior Member Join Date: September 10, 2007 Location: Racoon City Posts: 934	B.R., thanks for that link to your previous thread. That was a great write-up and confirms what my intuition was telling me. I have never been comfortable with a vertical fore grip, and while I rarely shoot for speed, I find the AFG much more ergonomic and useful for shooting off hand. However, in truth, I don't shoot measureably better with the AFG than without any grip at all. But, I do shoot much better with no grip and a hasty sling. __________________ _____________________________________________ Questions about 7.62 NATO and 308 Winchester? Click here.

April 28, 2013, 03:34 PM	#6
Haz251 Member Join Date: January 26, 2013 Posts: 97	It's really all personal preference. I like em. But I really only use them as a reference point for my support hand.

April 28, 2013, 04:07 PM	#7
Bartholomew Roberts member Join Date: June 12, 2000 Location: Texas and Oklahoma area Posts: 8,462	http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=406785 I started a Rifle thread discussing my 10 or so years of experience with vertical grips and what worked for me.

April 28, 2013, 08:34 PM	#10
Bartholomew Roberts member Join Date: June 12, 2000 Location: Texas and Oklahoma area Posts: 8,462	It also has to do with what you want to accomplish. If I am shooting from a static position for accuracy then I still like to use a more traditional stance that relies on skeletal support. The forward grips work for me in more 3-gun/IDPA type shooting (close and fast). I think one reason people don't appreciate them more is if you are shooting from a firing line at a non-mobile target 100yds or more away, they aren't really that useful.... Especially if it is a range where there is a restriction on the firing rate.

April 28, 2013, 08:41 PM	#11
Striker1 Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2004 Location: TX Posts: 710	I don't use one unless I have to...meaning the real estate on the rail or hand guard is too crowded for my hand. They add weight and more importantly bulk so I would weigh the gains carefully.

April 28, 2013, 09:17 PM	#12
dstyle47 Member Join Date: August 13, 2008 Posts: 61	I was told by someone who's opinion I really respected in such matters, that while they were fine if you used them properly, most people should not use them because they encourage you to "pull in" with your support hand, which I was told was a big no no.

April 29, 2013, 04:24 PM	#14
Yung.gunr Senior Member Join Date: November 11, 2010 Location: Phoenix area Posts: 1,442	The only vertical ones I would use would be the ones that had the light holder or bipod built in. I'm not a fan of the angle it puts your wrist. I do however have a Magpul AFG on my only EBR and I like it. Much more comfortable/natural for me. I have carpal tunnel in both wrists so angles are important to me.

April 29, 2013, 05:29 PM	#15
Stevie-Ray Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2007 Location: The shores of Lake Huron Posts: 4,783	I like them. I had a Tango Down on my Colt, but it never really excited me. Then I found a UTG. (Yes, UTG) It fills my hand better and gives me better purchase. Just feels much better all-around. __________________ Stevie-Ray Join the NRA/ILA I am the weapon; my gun is a tool. It's regrettable that with some people those descriptors are reversed.

April 29, 2013, 06:51 PM	#16
vaeevictiss Member Join Date: April 29, 2011 Posts: 32	Re: Vertical Fore Grips I am one that never have liked the vfg. One particular thing I've seen I don't like while watching people use them, is it changes the profile and body position. Just using your off hand on the rail, you are able to tuck in tighter (again, just my observation of what I've seen). With the vfg, people seem to have the chicken wing going on and their arm sticks way out. I have recently taken a strong liking to (as corny as it sounds) the stance Chris Costa uses in his carbine demonstrations. He pulls the rifle in tight, and extends his other arm down the length of the forearm, grabbing the end of the forearm with a canted wrist. I tried it out recently and it was unbelievable how steady and controllable it was engaging different size targets at different ranges very quickly.

April 29, 2013, 08:05 PM	#17
Bartholomew Roberts member Join Date: June 12, 2000 Location: Texas and Oklahoma area Posts: 8,462	Vaeevictiss? Woe to the evicted?

April 29, 2013, 10:28 PM	#19
SVTCobra306 Senior Member Join Date: March 18, 2013 Posts: 434	I've shot a lot with and without, with M-4's and M-16A2's. For longer range (300 meter qualification) and accuracy (25m zero) I always took my forward hand grip off. I never used one at all without a rail mount. The biggest advantage of them is keeping yourself from frying your hand. We had Knight's Armament rails on our M-4's in the 82nd Airborne Division, and leading up to deployment we did a lot of CQB live fire training, firing enough rounds in ready-up and similar drills that you could blister your trigger finger if you didn't wear good gloves. In that kind of firing, the rails would get hot enough to burn your hand through the glove, hence everyone used a forward hand grip. Overseas, we used a 150 meter zero rather than a 300, and everyone left their forward hand grip on their rifle.. Some of us had a "normal" one, a few had a bipod version (it makes for a wobbly bipod though), I used a version with a built-in Surefire light, which was very handy since I didn't have to have an extra piece hanging on the rail, and I didn't have to worry about snagging a taped-on pressure switch and wire, plus it weighed a little less than a separate Surefire and hand grip. When you carry your rifle on patrol nearly every day for 18 months, the littlest things like that are a luxury..

April 30, 2013, 12:54 PM	#20
Pops1085 Senior Member Join Date: November 25, 2012 Posts: 369	I have one on both my carbine and my a4 clone and I run them as far to the rear because that is about as close to my natural fighting stance as I can get and it's exactly how my cousins I'm the marines run theirs. I think there is huge difference between competition, "tactical" classes, and actual real world combat. Look at what soldiers and cops do with their rifles compared to civilians who use them in classes or staged competitions.

April 30, 2013, 03:24 PM	#21
FireForged Senior Member Join Date: November 4, 1999 Location: Rebel South USA Posts: 2,074	odd that so many soldiers have done just fine over many many decades without a tacticool foregrip. __________________ Life is a web woven by necessity and chance...

April 30, 2013, 10:01 PM	#23
SVTCobra306 Senior Member Join Date: March 18, 2013 Posts: 434	Didn't have metal rail forends before.. as I stated, with the regular M4 or M16A2 handgrips heat was usually a non-issue, plus the regular forend isn't painful to hang onto like the rail system. Yes, they make covers for them.. no, not every M-4 ends up with those on it, and if they do they get dirty/damaged/lost easily. Try carrying around an AR with a front rail and nothing to hang onto up there but a bare rail, and imagine doing that for 10 hours or more a day for a year. FWIW myself and an awful lot of other current and former combat arms Soldiers shake our heads at "tactical" and "tacticool" crap. Most of the time it's just garbage to hang off a rifle somewhere, or an otherwise pedestrian bag that has MOLLE loops on it for no reason, or anything in ACU digital camo (the worst camo ever btw). I see a lot of AR-15 type rifles with 15 pounds of garbage hanging off of them, miles of rails that are pretty much useless, etc. I'm not a promoter of all that crap. My ArmaLite has a set of normal midlength forends on it, a Bushnell optic that was 1/5 the price of an Aimpoint and I can't tell the difference in performance for my purposes, and the same CAA pistol grip and Mamba Geronimo 3-point sling that I carried on my last trip to Baghdad. It actually does not have a vertical foregrip in it.. there is no need. I will probably not shoot as many rounds out of it in its entire life as I would in a couple days of CQB live fire training back at Bragg.

April 30, 2013, 10:23 PM	#24
ClydeFrog Junior member Join Date: May 1, 2010 Posts: 5,797	MultiCam; ACU digital.... As a veteran; active duty, lower enlisted, 1989-1993, I never really cared for the "new" ACU digital camo format. FWIW; the US Army is now going back to the original plan of buying(procurement ) of MultiCam, www.CryePrecision.com . The brass & CSMs were impressed with the MultiCam format in SW Asia. ClydeFrog

April 30, 2013, 10:32 PM	#25
Brit Senior Member Join Date: January 29, 2005 Location: Orlando FL Posts: 1,934	You need to be able to move, quickly, flop down on the deck, stuff like that! A forward piece, sticking down, it is in the way. Fix bayonets! Yes it could still happen, think that bit would not be in the way. You hump a rifle, sling on your shoulder? Sling it off, bits sticking down? Good luck.