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June 8, 2016, 03:36 PM | #26 | ||||
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And I've got good cleaning and oiling supplies too. Quote:
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June 8, 2016, 05:27 PM | #27 |
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Hey Photon Guy--how about some details about the safari gun in post #11. Don't be fooled by my high post count. I can NOT take a look at a rifle and immediately tell you the manufacturer, the caliber, details about the scope, etc.
One of my friends keeps saying this life we're living isn't a rehearsal, it's the real thing. He uses this to explain some of his purchases and IMhO he's right. And if you really want to play games to justify a purchase nothing can beat my game where I figure if I take care of it, a firearm will last me a lifetime and probably the lifetime of whoever I leave it to...that makes the life of the gun just about forever so the cost (what ever it is) per month is just about nothing. I guess what I'm trying to say is good for you for buying a rifle you really wanted. Last edited by DaleA; June 8, 2016 at 05:34 PM. |
June 8, 2016, 05:45 PM | #28 |
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I know this a gun forum, but recently I passed through Smokey Mountain Knife Works in Sevierville, TN . I have one gun club bud who is a custom knife maker, and because I love sharp edged things, I know many dedicated collectors.
They all have stories about which brands are the best and within the brands, what years are the best. I have been told that Case knives from such and such era are the best, and I have been told similar stories about other brand names. Well, there are times when workmanship is better, and fit and finish might be better. My Boker 1976 Bicentennial knives are a bit rough compared to a Case of the same time period. But either takes an edge and holds it. Case knives today show excellent fit and finish, take an edge and hold it, and what more do you expect of a knife? I talked with the guys behind the Case counter at SMKW and asked them if they had heard earnest collectors tell them that current Case knives are junk compared to ones a specific decade ago. I got a lot of eye rolling. Yes, they had, in volumes, "all the time". I think the same is true of guns. Many people claiming this brand is good or bad, or this era is much better, really are talking from emotion more than evidence. I think most of them have a romanticized image they identify with and of course, everything in that fantasy land was better, strawberries were more strawberrier, cherries were more cherrier, the sun was brighter and it never rained . A good place to find this sort of person is at Culver Shooting Forum in the Garand and M1903 sub forums. Just go in there and claim the double heat treat M1903 was made of crap materials and the Garand can't shoot straight. You will get pilloried. As a general rule, the guns of today are better made, of better materials, than ever before. Expensive features have dropped off, wood has gone to plastic, but today's stuff is excellent for the price point. You can always get more by paying more.
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June 8, 2016, 09:42 PM | #29 |
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Manufacturing has greatly improves in the past ~50 years or so, to the point even bargain basement entry level rifles normally shoot quite well, better than most shooters.
I am still not really understanding what you are looking for. I know you were interested in a Steyr hunting rifle in 270 Win, are you just looking for a hunting rifle? What is it you are looking for? |
June 8, 2016, 10:30 PM | #30 | ||
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June 8, 2016, 10:34 PM | #31 | |
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June 8, 2016, 10:35 PM | #32 | |
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June 8, 2016, 10:54 PM | #33 | ||
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7mm Rem Mag or 300 Win Mag fit that description, but belted magnums tend to give up a little accuracy compared to standard non-belted cased cartridges. Depending on how good a shot you are, you may never notice. |
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June 8, 2016, 10:58 PM | #34 | |
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IMO muzzle velocity means very little, but retained velocity down range means everything. The higher the BC bullet the better off you are, even when using hunting bullets. It's all about finding balance In what you want to accomplish with the cartridge.
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June 8, 2016, 11:12 PM | #35 | |
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June 9, 2016, 12:10 AM | #36 |
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Well I explained in your other post that by 300 yards a 90 grain bullet from a .243 equalled the velocity and energy of the same weight bullet in a .270 fired 400 +/- FPS faster at the muzzle. So I'm not ignoring physics at all, I'm just adding aerodynamics into the equation which you aren't considering. Even though your bullet starts out with a lot more energy, by 100 yards my .243 bullet is within 200 ft-lbs of energy as yours. So if you think 200 ft-lbs extra is necessary to kill deer at 100 yards when both bullets are above 1500 ft-lbs at that distance then use the .270 Win. The deer can't tell the difference.
Or to put it another way a 130 grain bullet fired at 3060 FPS will have 400 ft-lbs more energy at 100 yards than your 90 grain bullet fired out of the same .270 Win rifle at 3600 FPS. If you want energy lighter and faster usually isn't the way to go IME. Trading a high BC bullet for a lower BC bullet with higher initial MV is a bad a idea, kind of like trying to tow a 10,000 lb payload with an El Camino. If more energy is your goal lighter and faster rarely gets it done when it comes to projectiles.
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June 9, 2016, 11:09 AM | #37 |
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Well also, supposedly the .270 Winchester has a very flat trajectory. That's another thing Im looking for in the round.
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June 9, 2016, 11:32 AM | #38 |
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It is flatter, but in the grand scheme of things, not much.
Using Federal Ammunition as a reference, with a 200 yard zero, a 130gr .270 @ 3200 FPS has about an inch and a half less drop at 300 yards than a 150gr .30-06 @ 2900 FPS. on edit: drop at 300 yards At ranges most people have any business shooting at game, it is not enough to bother with. Compare for yourself: https://www.federalpremium.com/products/rifle.aspx Last edited by emcon5; June 10, 2016 at 11:00 AM. Reason: clarification |
June 9, 2016, 06:35 PM | #39 |
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I don't question your desire for a high end rifle at all. You earned the money, your entitled to buy any rifle that pleases you. Besides the money's going to fine local cause, if the pic is the Dakota rifle you had mentioned.
Ever notice how some rifle owners are like new parents? Don't critisise my baby or my rifle, my baby may be ugly, but. The notion that all rifles are Chevy's under the paint is, IMO, absurd. Yep, the main difference between a Cadillac and a Chevy are fit, finish, and add ons. When you compare it to a Mercedes or a BMW you find a real difference. Any modern product Rem, Savage, Tikka, Browning offer a product that is reliable, accurate and affordable. I don't want any of them. I don't hunt anymore, so I don't need to put put meat in the freezer. I have put it there with Rem, Marlin, Weatherby, and Ruger. All of them perfectly serviceable, and some quite nice. I now shoot for pleasure, I have either sold or given away all of my rifles except for three, two Weatherby's and a Cooper. I won't say that I can shoot anything that I want, but I can shoot a Cooper MDL 22, 6.5x284, a varmint rifle that will kill a Moose. It is by far the most accurate rifle that I, or any of my crony's has ever seen. I was able to talk to the boy's that built and tested it. They gave me advice on dies, coal, powder, primers and brass. Even recommended that I try RL17, even though the test on my rifle was done with RL22. The price was $1700 at the Scheel's in Billings. This is no Chevy, believe me I have owned many. I have always wanted a Dakota Traveler. I know I'll never have one unless I win the lottery, or finally make it on Jeopardy. I only envy you a little Photon. You could reload for it and shoot it all you want. Last edited by handlerer2; June 9, 2016 at 06:44 PM. |
June 9, 2016, 07:49 PM | #40 | |
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June 10, 2016, 09:19 AM | #41 |
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Photon Guy my best advice for you is to seek a cartridge in 6.5mm to .308 calibers, and spend some time looking over ballistic tables. If its main purpose is hunting then look at bullets with a BC of .400 plus for your research. When leaving the muzzle at speeds of 2700 to 3100 fps you'll find that with a BC of .400+ it'll give you decent trajectories and plenty of energy to handle most North American big game.
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June 10, 2016, 04:36 PM | #42 |
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Well to bring in some further discussion on physics, momentum which is represented by P is a product of the mass and velocity. Now I would think the main factor in a bullet slowing down prior to exiting the muzzle is air resistance. If you were to shoot a gun in the vacuum of space the bullet would maintain its velocity indefinitely. In the earth's atmosphere however the air resistance will slow it down. How quickly the bullet is slowed down I would think would depend on its momentum. Now it doesn't matter if you've got a more massive slower moving bullet or a less massive faster bullet mass and velocity both have an equal effect on the momentum. So if the momentum is the same I don't see how a more massive but slower bullet would maintain its velocity better than if it were vice versa.
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June 10, 2016, 06:45 PM | #43 |
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Photon Guy, why do I think that this discussion has no actual purpose other than your personal amusement? If you really wanted a new rifle, more than enough info has been shared with you (by extremely knowledgable folks) to make your choice well informed.
Go buy a rifle and tell us what and why. |
June 10, 2016, 08:43 PM | #44 | ||
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Bullets with a higher BC resist the effects of drag better, to get a more streamlined bullet you need to increase the length and as a result the weight. You also need enough bearing surface on a bullet to engage the rifling to spin the bullet enough to stabilize its flight and to have enough surface to get proper tension when seating in the cartridge case. So in lighter bullets you can't make as streamlined of a bullet to resist drag as you can with heavier bullets and have enough bearing surface to work properly. The only way to get a light bullet with a high BC is to drop bore diameter. So if you want to shoot a 90 grain bullet like you posted in your other thread your better off going to a 6mm bore rifle than a .277 caliber. So while you're not wrong in your physics, you're not correct in your ballistics. I recommend you read this article by Bryan Litz. Here is a little quote from it: Quote:
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June 10, 2016, 11:42 PM | #45 |
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Since the 270 Winchester has been mentioned here; it's a fairly well known, "fact", that the lighter 130 grain load with its higher velocity shoots with a bit flatter trajectory than the heavier 150 grain load. A lesser I own fact, is that when 150 grain bullets are used, they actually shoot with a flatter trajectory than the 130 grain bullets when the range is substantially longer, and they arrive on target with substantially more energy. Of course, this assumes that both bullets are otherwise identical in their points and bases. High muzzle velocity is worth something, but it's also overrated. When it comes to long range, ballistic coefficient is more important.
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June 11, 2016, 08:39 AM | #46 | ||
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June 11, 2016, 08:49 AM | #47 | |
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Anyway, you seem to have a background in physics yourself, are you an engineer by any chance? As for me I took physics in high school and in college and while I by no means consider myself a bonifide expert I do know a few things. And I do find physics fascinating. |
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June 11, 2016, 08:58 AM | #48 |
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Probably better to learn the trajectory for whatever cartridge is chosen, for shots beyond, say, 300 yards. Inside of 300, "It don't make no nevermind, nohow." On out past 300, most folks can't guesstimate plus or minus fifty yards. The laser rangefinder is a blessing.
I've always zeroed for 200 yards. At 300, a 130-grain .270 drops about five inches. A 150-grain '06 drops about six inches. Bambi will never notice. |
June 11, 2016, 09:18 AM | #49 |
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Physics is both fascinating and confusing. So many ( laws ) in physics and lots of formulas. I understand you like velocity. As a kid I shot alot of things with my pellet guns. .177 and .22 cal Benjamin's that were both very accurate and capable of killing all the small game around the house. If you pumped the rifle 5 times you could see the pellets in flight and they knocked cans down. Pump it 10 times and you couldn't see the pellet unless the sun was just right and the cans often went flying. These were the old metal cans back in the day not flimsy coke cans of today. Got a Lil older and started shooting 22's and other small rifles. Armadillos were the best target for me because the hard shell aided in expanding the bullets on impact. Man I can remember like it was yesterday the first time I shot one with a 220 swift.
I have since learned that bullet construction can help the slower cartridges can preform much like the high velocity cartridges if you chose the right ones. I shoot very soft bullets thru slower rounds and a tougher bullet thru high velocity chamberings. The physics between the velocity and the density of the bullet transferring all its energy into soft tissue and fluid filled cavities is the fascinating part. That's why shooting a watermelon with a ballistic tip is much more explosive than shooting it with a fmj. |
June 11, 2016, 10:53 AM | #50 | |
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