So I'm bit by the AR bug for hunting.

[skizzums]

I have no experience with the 30AR which I'm assuming is yet another name for 300 AAC/ BLk? if that's the case, I only know what I've seen on paper and the synopsis there is that unless you're handloading in the same weight range as 7.62x39mm you're going to drop like a rock after 100 yards and I wouldn't recommend it much past that range for hunting purposes.

I can't imagine, as an owner of an alterative chambered ar15, you could believe that any 30cal cartridge variant is going to just be "a 300blk with a different name". there are a bunch of them, and they all have some pretty unique characteristics, some good and some bad.

let's compare .30cal's out of standard ar15's. it's difficult to find apples-apples comparisons, I will try to stay in the 125gr range, but barrel lengths will differ with data. I will try to refrain from using hand-load data even though we most know that we can push velocities far past the numbers than OTC munitions put out.

i'll start with a quick example of the popular 6-6.5 offerings for a comparison.

6.8SPC Special Purpose (6.8x43mm): 16" Barrel
120gr (7.7g) SST 2,460 ft/s (750 m/s) 1,612 ft·lbf

6.5mm Grendel(6.5x39mm):24" Barrel
123 gr (8 g) SMK 2,650 ft/s (810 m/s) 1,917 ft·lbf

These are just examples of what have become the "popular" 30cal AR15 chambering's. Their are plenty of 30 caliber options available, some better than others in ballistics, and some better at a specific role. a couple of them, especially the 30RAR hold good energy out to 400yds and beyond.

.300 Blackout(7.62x35mm): 16" Barrel
125 gr (8 g) OTM 2,215 ft/s (675 m/s) 1,360 ft·lbf (1,840 J)
125 gr (8.1g) FMJ 2,220 ft/s (680 m/s)
case capacity: 24.3 gr H2O
.300BKL @ 200 meters
9"barrel 300 AAC Blackout, 125 gr OTM 2,030 ft/s (620 m/s) 1,143 ft·lbf
16" barrel 300 AAC Blackout, 125 gr OTM 2,215 ft/s (675 m/s) 1,360 ft·lbf

30 Remington AR "30RAR" 24" Barrel
125 gr (8 g) Corelokt 2,800 ft/s (850 m/s) 2,176 ft·lbf
case capacity: 44 gr H20

30ARX 24" Barrel
125 gr (8.1g) Nosler Ballistic Tip 2517 fps
(2304 fps w/ 16" barrel)
125 gr (8 g) Sierra GameKing 2657 fps
(2407 fps w/ 16" barrel)
case capacity: 38 gr H2O

7.62x40WT(Wilson Tactical) 16" Barrel
125gr (8.1g) Nosler Ballistic Tip 2463FPS 1684 ft-lbf
(2579FPS w/ 22" BBL)
125gr (8 g) Sierra Prohunter 2420FPS
(2525FPS w/ 22" BBL)
case capacity: 29 g H20



*edit: oops, almost forgot the big one.
7.62x39"Russian" 16"Barrel
123gr (8 g) Full metal jacket 2,421 ft/s (739.0 m/s) 2,179 J
122gr (7.9 g) Full metal jacket 2,396 ft/s (730.3 m/s)1,555 ft·lbf
case capacity: 35 g H2O

[Dirty_Harry]

I built a 450 Bushmaster for hunting this year. It probably won't be my last hunting AR. For me it was simple, I shoot an AR15 more than anything else so I am extremely comfortable with one. I am of the opinion that confidence in what you shoot is more important than anything else.

[tirod]

What needs to be kept in mind are the figures nobody reports as often - at the other end of their effective range.

Given the AR15 as the limiting factor with an overall loaded length of 2.300", what diameter bullet and it's length make significant differences where the 1,000 foot pound effective limit is reached, and how much bullet drop is involved.

Plenty advocate having a lot of power, few relate it to how far they really shoot. Having an excess of power and range is taken for granted as the "correct" approach.

Again, in the military, it was discovered that the larger cartridges were found to have an excess of power that inhibited the shooter thru more recoil, and did nothing to encourage them to shoot accurately when the natural limit of human propensity to shoot presented itself. Humans won't target things much past 125m, which goes double when hunting woodlands. We simply cannot see game past the limit of obscuring vegetation. It requires the nearly artificial circumstance of having open terrain - which isn't a natural situation in the temperate and southern zones of America.

It takes working the ground for agricultural purposed to create it, or being in a semi-arid or desert region. Those typically have much less population density.

Those long shot are actually an unnatural result for most hunting Americans, especially for whitetail deer. I recently was surfing for tips on constructing a deer blind, and the majority of photos are interesting: limited range woodland or agriculturally exploited flat land. Even then the deer blinds have limited range - because the movement and activity of deer in late fall is in close quarters. They don't like open terrain if there is any known danger present.

If there's no crops to feed on, the deer go elsewhere. If you can exploit that behavior in that environment, then knowing the effective limit of your ballistic choice is MORE important than muzzle figures - which get manipulated and taken out of context by the typically male interest in marking out social standing rather than actual use.

If you are picking a cartridge - find out where it has 1,000 foot pound of energy, as that range is your ethical limit for most purposes we accept hunting. And you also want to know the bullet drop at that point, to understand where you can target your "point blank range" where any shot you take will fall inside the kill zone.

It doesn't do much good if you pick a cartridge with a lot of bullet drop or one that lacks power at the extreme you know is your effective limit. Conversely, choosing too much and having to deal with recoil beyond what is needed, or a barrel length longer than practical, and it limits you.

Improving YOUR success is the goal, not being part of the mass market and getting your income harvested by the latest fads.

[mehavey]

The "1,000- ft-lb" criteria would rule out a traditional trapdoor 45-70/405gr/1,000fps impact (at range).
While a 223/55gr/2,870fps impact at range would pass the test.
So we need a leeeetle better measure.



postscript: Both the 223 and the 45-70 just listed would kill
Mr. Whitetail just deader-than-a doornail.
(My 2₵)

[tirod]

So, the .45-70, according to one source http://gundata.org/cartridge/103/.45-70-government/ is good to about 165 yards where bullet drop begins to affect accuracy for the shooter.

I note that all the muzzle energies listed for the various weight cartridges are there, but - where's the 1,000 foot pound ranges and what's the bullet drop there? This is where the makers are playing the marketing game and the buyers are too focused on numbers with no real application. We don't shoot game at point blank - if we did, we could use a lot smaller cartridge. We shoot game trying to use some stand off to prevent them seeing or winding us and get the drop on them - it's tactical ambush in a military sense.

What we really need to do is focus on what the point blank range is. There aren't too many ammo makers or web pages that list them, and they tend to show figures from 20-26" barrels. A lot of hunting rifles are 18-22, and AR's range down to 10.5."

This is where digging out the info gets interesting, because what we think is happening may not be. That 1,000 pound range limit might be a lot closer than we think, or the range harder to hold over for than we are practiced to shoot. Goes to most hunters still picking flatter trajectories and smaller bullets tend to do that better. If you know your range and can exploit the higher potential energy of a larger bullet, then it's good. Or, you can shorten the barrel and get an advantage in the size of the gun, and still have enough power for where you hunt.

We don't explore it much when forums are Brand and Cartridge dominated. Those two items are in reverse priority in real life, and we need to match the cartridge to what we do, not choose one based on popularity and then try to make it fit.

It's not about how cool the cartridge is, it's about the standoff and will it work?

[skizzums]

I can't really figure out of your talking about the cartridges the OP posted about, or .223 ar's in general. I can't see how your criteria for ranged hunting is not met with the newest commercial 30cal ar15 offering. 30RAR is looking good to lower 500's, and this is a pretty under-powered factory load.


handloading is where the "cool" cartridge really takes the crown, I can't see why anyone would feel under-gunned with the 30RAR in pretty long-range hunting conditions. although not a 30-06 like most "hunting" rigs in the u.s., most feel that a .308 is plenty adequate for most North American game, and this comes pretty darn close when hand-loading near the top pressure ranges. you can investigate the load data your self I you want, and then study the trajectories, easy task if your so inclined. but I am not sure if your are dogging the "hunting-class" AR's or what from your last post......i'll leave with this from NRA "Shooting Illustrated"(which I will add was not kind to the 30rar at conception, but after seeing capabilities of handloads seem to fall for it)

Let's compare the .30 Rem. AR with a Sierra 155-grain HPBT Palma MatchKing bullet at 2,600 fps—a velocity I easily obtained in my 22-inch barrel—against a .223 Rem. with a 55-grain SP and 6.8 Rem. SPC Hornady 110-grain VMAX. At 500 yards, a 55-grain .223 bullet drops to a very marginal 316 foot-pounds of energy. The 110-grain 6.8 Rem. SPC is down to 541 foot-pounds, while the 30 Rem. AR still has 1,118 foot-pounds—more than double the energy of the 6.8 Rem. SPC and in excess of 3.5 times as much energy as the .223 Rem.

[smee78]

I was bit by the same bug but built a 7.62x39ar, as a reloader I can make ammo to fit my hunting requirements. I also am building a 308ar for bigger game and longer shots. Good luck with yours.

[CarJunkieLS1]

Thank you guys and Skizzums you have it pretty nailed. The 30RAR is an under rated catridge in my opinion and the only reason i see that it failed was Remingtons marketing or lack there of...

Also looking at ballistics with standard loads in 6.5Grendel and 30AR they follow the same trajectory path and the 30 cal delivers more energy.

I also have an initial review posted in this section.

[tahunua001]

skizzums,
my confusion came from the fact that I had never heard of the 30AR. anyone who knows what an intermediate cartridge is knows what x39 is. last I knew the x40WT was pretty much dead on arrival, that was 5 years ago and I have yet to ever see anyone that actually owns one. the whole 300 blk, AAC, fireball movement pretty much just fell inline with the blackout so naturally that's the one I think of. it would be stupid to refer to x39 as 30AR because it was originally designed for the SKS, and used for decades as the AK47 standard chambering long before it was in use in the AR15. sorry if my miss information offended you in some way? I've been out of the loop for some time.

[CarJunkieLS1]

Nobody referred to the 7.62x39 as the .30AR...

[GeauxTide]

Have good luck with CFE223 in my AA Grendel. Use the new 123 SST for game.

[A pause for the COZ]

I have three now that I rotate depending on what I feel like taking.

So far this season I have taken my AR10 in 308 win.



Tonight I loaded up some 123gr sp loads for the 7.62x39 upper.
I will take that one out tomorrow.



Then Next week I will take out the 300 Black out with 123gr SP loads.



So obviously my advice is buy one of each!!! But my Favorite is the 300 Black Out. But I dont want to start another one of those threads.

[kcub]

Why is 300 Blackout your favorite?
To shoot, to hunt?

[A pause for the COZ]

Why is 300 Blackout your favorite?
To shoot, to hunt?

Its main appeal to me was that I can shoot my 300 Black out much cheaper than I can almost any other caliber.
My shooting buddy from work is a huge fan of the 6.8spc. ( I also like it)
He stated why would I want to shoot the 300 Black out when I can do most of the same and a little more with the 6.8?
I told him what I thought and he went ahead and got the 6.8 any way.
Just to give you an example. I know for a fact he has maybe shot 200 rounds through his 6.8.
It cost allot to feed it.
While in that same time frame I have sent down range well in excess of 7000 rounds of 300 Black out.

When you figure it is a absolute breeze to get cast bullets to shoot well. Almost any load you work up is at 90% fill or better. easy

Brass is about free when converting 223 range pick ups.

The last time I ran my numbers I am under 2 bucks for a box of 20 rounds.
And they are accurate. In my world it was a no brainer.
And that does not even hit the usefulness of loading subsonic.

Hunting wise, I use it primarily as a brush gun. Ranges 200 yards or less, it can do better. But if I need more I break out the AR10 in 308 win.
So it fits for me.

[kcub]

Ranges 200 yards or less, it can do better.

Not sure I get what you mean. Are you saying the 300 BO is better than the others at <=200 yards?

Or that there is room for improvement ("it can do better")?

[jimbob86]

After handloading 100 rounds of .223 last night for Youngestdaughter to practice with today ..... I can see ONE advantage to the 300BLK: putting those little tiny 50 gr bullets into that little tiny case mouth with my human sized fingers was like artificially inseminating a gnat ...... if I did a lot of this, I'd HAVE to figure out a way to automate the proceess or get some soft jawed tweezers or something ......

...... once upon a time I considered getting a .204Ruger. Never happen, now..... and .17centerfireanything would be a dirty word in my house!

[A pause for the COZ]

KCub.
I mean I keep it under 200 yards. Thats my personal limit with it.
It can shoot better than that. I just dont need it too. I have other options ( AR10 308 win)
If I need to go longer than that.
I look at were I will be hunting that day, factor in the likely ranges.
Then I decide what gun I want to take.

I guess if your only allowed to have one gun. Pick one that you can reach out there with.
Luckily though most are not so we get to have fun with a nice carbine.

[stagpanther]

Here's a hot tip: I was just googling around and ran across surplus arms out of Washington state and they have in stock ready-to-go 6.5 264 lbc complete uppers for about $550. IMO you cannot build a finer one from scratch at a competitive price. I know because I have built on from scratch--that BHW barrel is stunning accurate with the right load.

[doofus47]

Olympic Arms makes a 30 cal olympic short mag and there's uppers in 25 wssm made by several companies.

[stagpanther]

Olympic Arms makes a 30 cal olympic short mag and there's uppers in 25 wssm made by several companies.

I've looked at some of those and they are quite interesting though I would call em custom guns (and quite expensive). The 6.5/264 (Grendel with tiny shoulder angle difference) has been around long enough I'd call it "mainstream" like the 300 blk. Heck, you can even get a 50 bmg upper for an AR15 if ya want. : )

One problem is that building an HBAR type longish barrel AR starts tipping the scales up there into the "AR 10" weight range which starts to defeat the purpose of an AR 15 IMO.

Having built a 6.8 spc and 6.5-264 IMHO I felt these were reasonable extensions of the original AR15 once you consider over-all portability, ammo etc. I sold both of these but still have a couple of AR's in the safe that I'm considering new upper builds for. I've been especially interested in the new 6.5 special hybrid of sticking a 6.5 bullet into a 6.8 necked down case. I think 6.5 is the way to go in a light-weight AR15 platform. ; )

[mxsailor803]

I'm a little bit of odd ball you can say. I like the .300blk and the 6.8spc. I do reload for both. Granted I had to buy the 6.8 brass and I made the 300blk from range surplus 5.56 Lake City brass. I do like them both though. The one round that I haven't heard or seen much discussion about is the 25-45 Sharps. I recently found out about this one and am seriously considering this as my next upper. I mean I can still use the 5.56/.223 brass, cut to length just like a .300blk, and use a .25 cal bullet. From my standpoint as a reloader, the only thing I would need to make my own would be dies and bullets (don't have anything in that caliber size). And while I'm discussing parent 5.56 cases, how about the .277 Wolverine? Same concept of .300blk or 25-45Sharps, just using .277 bullets. Realistcally, that will be my next upper since all I would need is dies and a barrel, as I use the same bullets in my .270's as well as 6.8spc.

[A pause for the COZ]

The next upper I am going to do is a 7mm TCU. Already have the die purchased. Just keep getting to many other great deals pop up in my way.
maybe before spring.

[kcub]

I wish the 6x45 / 6mm/223 were commercially loaded. I think that's as big a bullet weight upgrade as makes sense for the limited case capacity of the 223. It would not just be a better hunting round but a better everything round than 223.

But all these other oddball 223/AR alternative spinoffs have the market all fragmented, saturated, and therefore too buggered up for any one to get traction just like the 6.5 Creedmoor/260Rem/26 Nosler/6.5x55/6.5x54MS crowd.

[sevt_chevelle]

Can you buy brass for 30AR or are you stuck buying factory ammo for the brass to reload?

[CarJunkieLS1]

Sevt_Chevelle I have seen once fired 30AR brass online but it is very expensive...when it comes to buying new brass it is non exisistant and to get brass you have to buy loaded ammo.

But 30AR ammo w/ a 150gr Core-Lokt is easy to find online for less than $20/box.