I don't know if I trust the guy!

[.284]

Before I get to my question I will give you a bit of background information. My partner and I have been reloading for a few years now and by all means do not consider ourselves to be experts. My buddy is not a TFL member so I told him I would get some feedback from the forum members.

Here's the situation. My buddy's wife does in home massages and one of her clients noticed our range and started asking some questions. She then put my bud in touch with him and he sent down six 357 loads for my pal to try. The guy talks a very good game. "I do everything to one ten thousandth of an inch. I turn all my case necks. I use a concentricity gauge......blah blah blah."

So, here are the problems I have. First, the loads he sent are above max load for any published source we can find (he was using 9 grains of 800x under a Hornady 158 gr bullet....don't remember the primer but, I think it was a magnum). We could only find a max published load using 8.7 grs. His COAL varied as much as .010 (so much for everything at .0001) and no two had the same COAL. When he came down to shoot with us, he couldn't hit a bull in the butt at ten paces with his 357 mag. I told my buddy if it were me I would respectfully hand him back his reloads and let him know that I only shoot my own flavors out of my gun.

Does this guy should like a BS artist? what would you do? The guy seems to be a nice fellow....I'm just not sure I trust him yet.

[Lavid2002]

I rarely let people shoot my reloads out of their guns in case something happens. I wouldnt shoot others reloads...

[oneoldsap]

A wise man speaks , because he has something to say ! A fool speaks because he has to say something ! My trust has to be earned , just like respect. I will shoot no reloads but my own , it could be a matter of life and death !

[Nate1778]

Yes he does, and I agree with the above. Certain things are OK to try if offered by someone, beef jerky, beer, a new pen, but mini bombs in the hand I would forgo. I don't let others shoot my reloads in their guns although they can shoot them from mine, and often do. I cast my lead and its fit to my barrels, one that may chamber in mine may not in theirs. If the guy makes the best Jerky in the world, take it on a whirl, other wise take his reloading abilities on his word and leave it at that.

[DiscoRacing]

Sounds like poo to me... I would just kindly tell him that I only shoot my own reloads...You may even want to compliment him on his fine shooting skills...

[vladan]

Never shoot someone else reloads. Plus if he's trying to get you buy it from him and doesn't have licence he's breaking law by illegal manufacturing ammo

[Clark]

I don't trust other people's handloads, and other people don't trust mine.

Trust can be modeled as a saw tooth function.
It ramps up with every trustworthy deed, and ramps down faster with every failing.

That is my most used trust model.
Poker players assume that others have that kind of model and try to game the system.

Some people have a step function model, where everyone is perfect until one failing, and then they are never trusted again. I don't know anyone with that model that stayed married

What does it all mean?
There is no good way to baby step into trusting someone that might be handing you the red pill.

[.284]

Pretty much what I expected. I don't think my buddy ever intended to shoot the reloads but, when he was shooting the bull with us he started giving us all kind of advice on everthing from switching powders to lapping our gun barrels and so on. I don't think I will let this guy make any improvements to my gun based on just meeting him. Time will tell.

[Sevens]

Generally, I agree with what's been said. However, in addressing the facts as relayed to us by the OP, there's a few comments I'd make.

First is that the load may be over max in any place you've looked, but that in and of itself does not make them dangerous. Clark knows this as well as anyone. If you develop a load properly, in a handgun that you have in your possession, being a hair over someone else's published "max" doesn't make it unsafe.

Now, simply dropping 6 rounds off at some guy's house and telling him to shoot them -- that's pretty ignorant.

As for his COAL's being variable, there are also cases where that can be explained. It has to do with the shape of the bullet -- or more to the point, the exact dimensions of the tip. When you set COAL for a load, your main purpose is to set a non-moving internal space for the load. You don't want COAL drifting up and down because that changes the space inside the case where the magic happens.

If you are using soft point bullets where the final tip of the bullet may be flattened, worn down or otherwise damaged from shipment/storage/packing, you can still set the bullet in properly and keep a static internal space -- all the while see a varying COAL when measured with a caliper. When you eyeball them, they look fine but get out the caliper and you'll see how they vary.

So his ammo may not be bad all at, but it's pretty idiotic form to toss a bunch of handloads at someone (you don't even KNOW!) and tell them to fire them from your handguns. It's not smart on anyone's part.

As for reloading for someone else or trusting some else's reload... well, that's a whole other ball of wax. To completely discount every instance of it is just plain silly. Not quite as silly as handing someone 6 rounds and telling them to bang away... but it's still ignorant. I can think of many cases where reloading for someone else is not only an acceptable idea, but a good idea at that.

[Hog Buster]

Sounds like the typical American Male when first met, 90% BS and 10% that doesn’t matter. Some change, others don’t. You’ll have to make your own decision about him.

[Unclenick]

I would not shoot them. The 0.01" seating variance is ignorable and not uncommon. The charge might produce pressure above the current SAAMI max pressure spec for .357, but should be below the old one and below the current CIP pressure limit as near as I can determine. That would mean it should be safe in a modern .357. What I would worry much more about is how precisely he metered the powder charges? You can't tell by looking at or by weighing the finished cartridges, since case and bullet weight deviation could mask significant errors in the charge. A large flake like 800X is typically troublesome to meter consistently. I would take an inertial puller and pull the bullets and weigh the charges to see how he did?

[Baphomet]

.
Common sense prevents me from shooting any reloads but my own. Period.

[Tim R]

If it were me I would be guarded as well with this guy. It takes me awhile to trust a guy enough to take pointers on reloading. I have a tight circle of NRA High Power shooting buddies who I have different levels of trust when it comes to their reloading practices. A couple of them I would trust enough for them to shoot their reloads in my gun. Why? Because I've seen a couple of thousand rounds go down range without any problems. Other buddies well, not always the case. There have been times when we will loan a rifle to each other when trying to get a newbie started. Even my back up AR is an expensive rifle with it's high milage WOP upper. We would rather not see our 2nd guns damaged.

I have a motorcycle riding buddy who I would not trust with anything of mine because he has blown 2 of his own pistols up. I dang sure won't come within a mile of his reloads.

[Shoney]

I have to agree that the loads should be returned to their "creator". However, 800X at listed max is well below SAMMI pressures.

Read the following thread and pay attention to Clark's posting on the subject of overloading 800X:
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=402209

[Brian Pfleuger]

I wouldn't shoot reloads from an "unknown", regardless. After examining them and getting the results that you report.... no way, no how.

[Casimer]

I know a few people who's handloads I trust, but I doubt that any of them would be so quick to hand out hot loads to relative strangers.

That's what throws a red flag for me. It's something I've seen people who are new to reloading do. They get excited, think that they're doing load development, and want everyone to try their handloads.

[BigJimP]

I would not shoot them ..... I would just say thanks - but I only shoot my own reloads.

I let a few of my friends shoot my reloads in my guns ....but as a rule, I don't give reloads to anyboby outside of my family to shoot.

I have 2 dozen buddies that reload metallic and shotshells .....and there are only 3 guys that I would trust - if one of them offered me a shell or a cartridge. The other guys are not bad guys / but they're not careful reloaders ... or as careful as I expect them to be.

If these rounds are not in spec / within the limit of a specified load in a manual ....I would never, ever shoot them - even if I did trust the guy / and I wouldn't trust him any longer.

[zxcvbob]

You could pull them apart and measure everything and reassemble. That give you a chance to weigh every charge to figure out if he knows what he's doing at all.

I don't shoot other people's reloads, and (with very rare exceptions) they don't shoot mine.

The 8.0 gn of 800x doesn't bother me at all. Everything else you said does.

[Nnobby45]

Does this guy should like a BS artist? what would you do?

I think we both know the answer to that one, and I am a bit curious to know how he turns those straightwall pistol case necks down so precisely.

If I were a Psychologist, I'd probably say that he was just a nice guy who wants to impress people so he'll be accepted. But, since I'm not (a psychologist), I won't say that.

[TheNatureBoy]

I wouldn't shoot them. I only shoot my on loads and those of the guy that taught me how to do it. If I meet someone who starts to spout off about how good of a reloader and shooter he is I proceed with extreme caution. In these cases, talk is indeed cheap.

[Old Grump]

Give them back and tell him to shoot them himself. You value your guns to much to use them for his experiments.

[grubbylabs]

The variance could be explained by his tools, you only found a variance in the C.O.L. right? well if his calipers are off or out of calibration then he could un knowingly be producing inconsistent ammo. But then again your calipers could also be out of calibration as well.

[.284]

Hey guys, thanks for all the replies. A couple of quick clarifications if I may.

First and foremost, he really is a nice guy so I don't want to bash him too bad.

As to the suggestion that his or my partners calipers being off, I don't know. I would sooner believe that it would be a lack of technique on his part. My partner is a die maker and I can assure you his calipers are dead nuts on. Furthermore, I know first hand that there is a definite right and wrong way to use them. We often joke that he is the journeyman and I am the apprentice. It took me a while to learn proper technique so I could see that happening to someone quite easily. As for the variance in COAL, I could see a soft point getting wacked out of shape. I dont have the loads in front of me but, I believe that the Hornady XTP has a jacket that goes all the way to the tip and the cup is the only exposed lead. Also, he turns the necks of his rifle cases NOT his straightwalled cartridges. If he told me that he turned straightwalls I'd be scratching my head as well. Finally, Unclenick made the same point that I threw out to my buddy.......what's on the inside of that case is what worries me and yes, we found the same information that 800X is a devil to meter.

[riverwalker76]

If he were someone you would want to keep as a friend ..... pull all of the bullets and put a comfortable load in there.

Then ... tell him how great they fired, but you could use something with a little less 'umpf' .... if you know what I mean!

This way you preserve the friendship. He knows you don't like his 'mag' loads and prefer something lighter, and only you know what went down.

SOmetimes you have to 'bite the bullet' ... no pun intended ... in order to preserve a lasting friendship.

Again, don't tell him that you reloaded his loads, but tell him you would prefer something with a little less kick to it. I can almost guarantee you he will go out of his way to make some 'milder' loads for you next time.

I know a few BS artists, and sometimes the best thing you can be to them is a friend. It doesn't bother me if they want to BS. I enjoy a good 'fish story' every now and then.

[Shane Tuttle]

If he were someone you would want to keep as a friend ..... pull all of the bullets and put a comfortable load in there.

Then ... tell him how great they fired, but you could use something with a little less 'umpf' .... if you know what I mean!

This way you preserve the friendship.

In the circle of friends I've formed over the years, the LAST thing I want and they as well is to lie. What if you don't tell him the truth in his inconsistencies of his reloading process? What if he gives some sample loads to another person and they had the chance to fire them before you had the chance to notify the other person? Catastrophic failures could happen due not only to the poor reloading practice, but silence from you as well.

My friends' feelings take a back seat to safety of myself and others.