Powder for 38 special

welder05 · June 30, 2008, 09:33 PM

I am about to do first reloads using cast instead the regular jacketed. The reloads are 38 special 125 gr FP and 148 lwc. I will be firing from 357mag revolver. I am looking at several powders with the objective to keep barrel lead free. I am looking at Bullseye titegroup or HP 38. My Lee manual says that presure not velocity is key for decrease leading. In that case it appears Titegroup would be the choice as my manual shows the lowest pressure.
I would like to hear from folks who experience with this load and their recommendations

clayking · June 30, 2008, 09:50 PM

I load my 158 LSWC'ers with 231. I've had no problems with leading, and accuracy has been great....................ck

Scorch · June 30, 2008, 09:58 PM

Bullseye is the classic 38 Special powder. I would try that before any of the others.

joneb · June 30, 2008, 10:26 PM

I have had good results with Bullseye, W-231, AA#5 and Unique for .38 spl. with lead bullets. I think bullet sizing+lube, base configuration and bullet hardness, with all or one or two of the before mentioned, are key to lead free shooting.

El Paso Joe · June 30, 2008, 10:38 PM

Ditto what Scorch said about Bullseye. It has been my first choice for years. Also you might cast the bullets on the hard side - Lyman #2 or a 50/50 lead & Linotype mix (aka hardball). Good luck.

Yoosta B. Blue · July 1, 2008, 05:09 AM

Welder, one of my favorite loads is 2.8 grains of Bullseye under 148 grain DEWC bullets. I seat them with about 1/32 of an inch protruding out of the case mouth. This combination has proven to be a sweet one for me, and I shoot lots of them. (An added bonus is that the wife also likes to shoot these in one of our 357 wheel guns.)

YBB

Stumper · July 1, 2008, 08:16 AM

Nothing wrong with Bullseye, 231 or a host of other powders. Unique gets top marks in the Special also.........but FWIW most of my stuff gets loaded with Red Dot. It is a matter of bulk purchasing and economics. I can get usable loads in 12gauge and any metallic cartrridge with Red Dot. In some of the Pistol calibers it runs near the top of performance. For cast bullets in rifles it works great for plinking loads. A side benny is that more than one tester of target handloads in .38 special has gotten better accuracy with Red Dot than with Bullseye.... and Red dot is bulky enough to meter well and make for easy visual inspection prior to bullet seating.

SL1 · July 1, 2008, 08:19 AM

Welder05,

Pressure that is too low is not good either. If the pressure is too low, then it does not expand the bullet base sufficiently to seal the bore, and hot gases escape around the bullet, which causes "gas cutting" and leads the barrel.

If you reread what Richard Lee (and others, such as Veral Smith) wrote, they are saying that the best accuracy with a lead bullet comes when the pressure is just high enough to expand the bullet base against the bore, but not so high that it expands the bullet too far above its base (i.e., deforming the whole bullet). That optimum pressure depends on the strength of the lead alloy used in the bullet.

Lee and Saeco sell lead hardness testers and tables for estimating the best pressure to use for any particular hardness results from a tested bullet. But, most folks can't tell exactly what charge weight creates a specific pressure in THEIR particular guns, anyway, and so they simply shoot a series of increasing loads and note the effects on accuracy and leading.

There should be an optimum charge weight seen in the grouping results, and, if your lube is OK, it should produce very little or no leading.

Fast powders such as Bullseye can produce the necessary pressures with very light charges, thus creating rather low bullet velocities and low recoil effects from both the bullet and the "rocket effect" from the mass of the powder gases escaping the muzzle at something like 4700 fps. The same bullets can be shot at higher velocities with bigger charges of slower powders creating about the same maximum pressure, also with little leading. But, those loads produce more recoil.

SL1

**Mike Irwin** · July 1, 2008, 11:44 AM

My .38 Special loading began in 1983 with 231.

I'm still loading 231 in .38 Special.

I expect to be loading 231 in my .38 Specials for many decades to come.

TexasSeaRay · July 1, 2008, 12:08 PM

Mike, you and I started loading about the same time. I started out loading .38 Special 158 gr LRN with 4.3 grains of W231. They made for a superb minor load in IPSC out of my 686, and the RN made for fast, easy speed loads.

For my 148 wadcutters, I like 2.8 grains of Bullseye. It's the old PPC/bullseye shooters classic, time-tested and never bested load configuration.

The word we're looking for is obturation--that is the base of the lead expanding (due to the hot gasses of the powder explosion) and forming a seal in the barrel.

If you DO get some leading, don't worry about it. Several easy, quick ways to get it out. One is the classic ChoreBoy around a brush method. The other is a 1:1 ratio of white kitchen vinegar mixed with hydrogen peroxide--plug one end of the barrel, pour the solution in and let it set for ten minutes. You'll see it fizz and bubble as it works on the lead residue. Unplug, pour out, run brush through several times, gun patch with your preferred shooting solvent/lubricant, and you're done. (If you're shooting a blue gun, be extremely careful not to get any of the solution on your finish--I only use this solution with my stainless guns).

I quit worrying about leading years ago.

Jeff

chaad · July 1, 2008, 02:57 PM

Another 231 fan here. Pours like a dream and accurate.

Scorch · July 1, 2008, 04:09 PM

Quote:

My .38 Special loading began in 1983 with 231.
I'm still loading 231 in .38 Special.
I expect to be loading 231 in my .38 Specials for many decades to come.

I guess in some ways that pretty well summarizes it. You stick with what you know works well. I started reloading 38 Sp with Unique because I already used it for my 357 and 45ACP. I have used other powders for all of them, but keep coming back to Unique. They're all good.

1tomcat · July 2, 2008, 04:16 PM

I use nothing but 231 in 38 special and or plus p

Jim Watson · July 2, 2008, 05:21 PM

I went to Win 231 in the late 1970s when I bought a progressive loader (C-H AutoCHamp, pre Dillon era) and found it would not uniformly meter the flake powder I had been using single stage.

aerod1 · July 2, 2008, 05:42 PM

I am using Bullseye and am tinkering with the load now. I have just started reloading, even though I am an old fart, so look to someone else for "good" advice.

bluetopper · July 4, 2008, 03:13 PM

Bullseye, 231 or HP 38, Clays, and American Select are the cat's meow for 38 wadcutters.

I've found Titegroup burns a little hot for some cast loads and does leave lead. Your mileage may vary.

Stagger Lee · July 4, 2008, 03:15 PM

231 all the way. I just can't figure out how come it seems to burn relatively clean in my .38's and so dirty in my .45. Any clues?

BIGR · July 5, 2008, 11:28 AM

Bullseye has worked real well for me.

Linear Thinker · July 5, 2008, 11:45 AM

I started with the most popular 38Spec load of all time, 2.8gr Bullseye under 148gr HBWC, almost 30 years ago. An accurate load, but filthy.
I moved to W231, never looked back. Same accuracy, much less cleaning.
My load: 3.2gr W231 under 148 HBWC or DEWC.

Among other powders I tried were:

Accurate #2 - gave incomplete ignition, there were always lots of little powder specks inside cases and barrels.
This never happened in other calibers - #2 burns cleanly in 45ACP.

Unique - dirty, but very accurate with 158gr bullets
IMR PB - accurate with 158gr bullets, but more expensive to load. It used to be sold in 8oz tins, IIRC.

I am a big fan of Trail Boss lately, and use it in 45C, 44Spec and mild 44Mag.
Will try it eventually in 38 Special, when I run out of 30lb or so of W231 I have left. May be a while.
LT

WESHOOT2 · July 6, 2008, 10:17 AM

1) Bullet; try different bullet.

2) Chamber size; gonna need a professional pistolsmith.

3) Process; something you're doing?

Help us help you; provide detailed specific exact info on gun, components, and woe.

---For the OP; HP-38 is W231, so use that.
Bullseye is second....

June 30, 2008, 09:33 PM	#1
welder05 Member Join Date: March 27, 2008 Location: Texas Posts: 29	Powder for 38 special I am about to do first reloads using cast instead the regular jacketed. The reloads are 38 special 125 gr FP and 148 lwc. I will be firing from 357mag revolver. I am looking at several powders with the objective to keep barrel lead free. I am looking at Bullseye titegroup or HP 38. My Lee manual says that presure not velocity is key for decrease leading. In that case it appears Titegroup would be the choice as my manual shows the lowest pressure. I would like to hear from folks who experience with this load and their recommendations

June 30, 2008, 09:58 PM	#3
Scorch Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2006 Location: Washington state Posts: 15,248	Bullseye is the classic 38 Special powder. I would try that before any of the others. __________________ Never try to educate someone who resists knowledge at all costs. But what do I know? Summit Arms Services

July 1, 2008, 08:16 AM	#7
Stumper Senior Member Join Date: June 15, 2008 Location: Colorado Posts: 438	Nothing wrong with Bullseye, 231 or a host of other powders. Unique gets top marks in the Special also.........but FWIW most of my stuff gets loaded with Red Dot. It is a matter of bulk purchasing and economics. I can get usable loads in 12gauge and any metallic cartrridge with Red Dot. In some of the Pistol calibers it runs near the top of performance. For cast bullets in rifles it works great for plinking loads. A side benny is that more than one tester of target handloads in .38 special has gotten better accuracy with Red Dot than with Bullseye.... and Red dot is bulky enough to meter well and make for easy visual inspection prior to bullet seating. __________________ "Let us speak courteously, deal fairly, and keep ourselves armed and ready." Theodore Roosevelt "If only God has magic, how does Santa get down the chimney?" Natalie Peters age 4

July 1, 2008, 11:44 AM	#9
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,382	My .38 Special loading began in 1983 with 231. I'm still loading 231 in .38 Special. I expect to be loading 231 in my .38 Specials for many decades to come. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

July 1, 2008, 12:08 PM	#10
TexasSeaRay Senior Member Join Date: November 19, 2007 Location: Texas Posts: 810	Mike, you and I started loading about the same time. I started out loading .38 Special 158 gr LRN with 4.3 grains of W231. They made for a superb minor load in IPSC out of my 686, and the RN made for fast, easy speed loads. For my 148 wadcutters, I like 2.8 grains of Bullseye. It's the old PPC/bullseye shooters classic, time-tested and never bested load configuration. The word we're looking for is obturation--that is the base of the lead expanding (due to the hot gasses of the powder explosion) and forming a seal in the barrel. If you DO get some leading, don't worry about it. Several easy, quick ways to get it out. One is the classic ChoreBoy around a brush method. The other is a 1:1 ratio of white kitchen vinegar mixed with hydrogen peroxide--plug one end of the barrel, pour the solution in and let it set for ten minutes. You'll see it fizz and bubble as it works on the lead residue. Unplug, pour out, run brush through several times, gun patch with your preferred shooting solvent/lubricant, and you're done. (If you're shooting a blue gun, be extremely careful not to get any of the solution on your finish--I only use this solution with my stainless guns). I quit worrying about leading years ago. Jeff __________________ If every single gun owner belonged to the NRA as well as their respective state rifle/gun association, we wouldn't be in the mess we're in today. So to those of you who are members of neither, thanks for nothing.

June 30, 2008, 09:50 PM	#2
clayking Senior Member Join Date: January 29, 2006 Location: Florida Posts: 796	I load my 158 LSWC'ers with 231. I've had no problems with leading, and accuracy has been great....................ck __________________ Never argue with an idiot, they will just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

June 30, 2008, 10:26 PM	#4
joneb Senior Member Join Date: December 10, 2005 Location: Central , OR Posts: 1,888	I have had good results with Bullseye, W-231, AA#5 and Unique for .38 spl. with lead bullets. I think bullet sizing+lube, base configuration and bullet hardness, with all or one or two of the before mentioned, are key to lead free shooting.

June 30, 2008, 10:38 PM	#5
El Paso Joe Senior Member Join Date: July 4, 2006 Location: Spokane Valley Posts: 340	Ditto what Scorch said about Bullseye. It has been my first choice for years. Also you might cast the bullets on the hard side - Lyman #2 or a 50/50 lead & Linotype mix (aka hardball). Good luck.

July 1, 2008, 05:09 AM	#6
Yoosta B. Blue Senior Member Join Date: February 12, 2008 Location: Just a tad NE of the Alamo... Posts: 252	Welder, one of my favorite loads is 2.8 grains of Bullseye under 148 grain DEWC bullets. I seat them with about 1/32 of an inch protruding out of the case mouth. This combination has proven to be a sweet one for me, and I shoot lots of them. (An added bonus is that the wife also likes to shoot these in one of our 357 wheel guns.) YBB

July 1, 2008, 08:19 AM	#8
SL1 Senior Member Join Date: November 8, 2007 Posts: 2,001	Welder05, Pressure that is too low is not good either. If the pressure is too low, then it does not expand the bullet base sufficiently to seal the bore, and hot gases escape around the bullet, which causes "gas cutting" and leads the barrel. If you reread what Richard Lee (and others, such as Veral Smith) wrote, they are saying that the best accuracy with a lead bullet comes when the pressure is just high enough to expand the bullet base against the bore, but not so high that it expands the bullet too far above its base (i.e., deforming the whole bullet). That optimum pressure depends on the strength of the lead alloy used in the bullet. Lee and Saeco sell lead hardness testers and tables for estimating the best pressure to use for any particular hardness results from a tested bullet. But, most folks can't tell exactly what charge weight creates a specific pressure in THEIR particular guns, anyway, and so they simply shoot a series of increasing loads and note the effects on accuracy and leading. There should be an optimum charge weight seen in the grouping results, and, if your lube is OK, it should produce very little or no leading. Fast powders such as Bullseye can produce the necessary pressures with very light charges, thus creating rather low bullet velocities and low recoil effects from both the bullet and the "rocket effect" from the mass of the powder gases escaping the muzzle at something like 4700 fps. The same bullets can be shot at higher velocities with bigger charges of slower powders creating about the same maximum pressure, also with little leading. But, those loads produce more recoil. SL1

July 1, 2008, 02:57 PM	#11
chaad Member Join Date: July 18, 2007 Posts: 75	Another 231 fan here. Pours like a dream and accurate.

July 2, 2008, 04:16 PM	#13
1tomcat Senior Member Join Date: June 27, 2005 Posts: 147	I use nothing but 231 in 38 special and or plus p

July 2, 2008, 05:21 PM	#14
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,539	I went to Win 231 in the late 1970s when I bought a progressive loader (C-H AutoCHamp, pre Dillon era) and found it would not uniformly meter the flake powder I had been using single stage.

July 2, 2008, 05:42 PM	#15
aerod1 Senior Member Join Date: April 12, 2000 Location: Garland Texas U.S.A. Posts: 734	I am using Bullseye and am tinkering with the load now. I have just started reloading, even though I am an old fart, so look to someone else for "good" advice. __________________ NRA Life Member, TSRA Life Member, C&R 03 FFL, Texas LTC Recreational Reloader U.S. Navy Veteran (USS Midway V-1 Division)

July 4, 2008, 03:13 PM	#16
bluetopper Senior Member Join Date: December 16, 2005 Location: Northeast TX Posts: 1,197	Bullseye, 231 or HP 38, Clays, and American Select are the cat's meow for 38 wadcutters. I've found Titegroup burns a little hot for some cast loads and does leave lead. Your mileage may vary.

July 4, 2008, 03:15 PM	#17
Stagger Lee Senior Member Join Date: April 7, 2007 Posts: 342	231 all the way. I just can't figure out how come it seems to burn relatively clean in my .38's and so dirty in my .45. Any clues?

July 5, 2008, 11:28 AM	#18
BIGR Senior Member Join Date: June 13, 2000 Location: Mountains Posts: 1,385	Bullseye has worked real well for me.

July 5, 2008, 11:45 AM	#19
Linear Thinker Senior Member Join Date: February 10, 2007 Location: Blue State, NE US Posts: 202	I started with the most popular 38Spec load of all time, 2.8gr Bullseye under 148gr HBWC, almost 30 years ago. An accurate load, but filthy. I moved to W231, never looked back. Same accuracy, much less cleaning. My load: 3.2gr W231 under 148 HBWC or DEWC. Among other powders I tried were: Accurate #2 - gave incomplete ignition, there were always lots of little powder specks inside cases and barrels. This never happened in other calibers - #2 burns cleanly in 45ACP. Unique - dirty, but very accurate with 158gr bullets IMR PB - accurate with 158gr bullets, but more expensive to load. It used to be sold in 8oz tins, IIRC. I am a big fan of Trail Boss lately, and use it in 45C, 44Spec and mild 44Mag. Will try it eventually in 38 Special, when I run out of 30lb or so of W231 I have left. May be a while. LT

July 6, 2008, 10:17 AM	#20
WESHOOT2 Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 1999 Location: home on the range; Vermont (Caspian country) Posts: 14,324	dirty 45 clues 1) Bullet; try different bullet. 2) Chamber size; gonna need a professional pistolsmith. 3) Process; something you're doing? Help us help you; provide detailed specific exact info on gun, components, and woe. ---For the OP; HP-38 is W231, so use that. Bullseye is second.... __________________ . "all my ammo is mostly retired factory ammo"