Berry's preferred plated bullets

[abowlieb]

Am I right? It says they can be loaded with either Jacketed or lead data? I have some 158gr pills I want to load up for my gp100 357mag. I have some unique and imr700x. Both can be used under the lead load data. I looked up Berry's load info and all the said was use lead or jacket load data as long as the bullet weights are the same. Lol sorry just want someone to agree with what I am thinking so I have a warm fuzzy about it. Kinda still fillong my way into reloading and I dont want to jack anything up. Thx for ur input

[Nick_C_S]

What is your purpose?

Assuming you want something spunky, but don't want to run into the problems associated with plating breakdown, I would (and did) refer to my Speer #14 manual. For Unique, it peaks at 7.7gn for a jacketed slug, with a velocity of 1040 f/s. That's probably not hot enough to concern yourself with plating breakdown. The minimum is 6.9gn - a good starting point for your work up.

As for 700X, you can use it, but I think it's a bit fast for the application (this coming from a guy who tends to load with powders faster than most, for the same application).

[abowlieb]

Just to punch holes in paper. The info I have is from " Modern reloading" second edition by Richard Lee. For a lead load it has 5.3 gr of unique. It didnt have unique list as a powder to use for jacketed. That is why I was asking about being able to load these bullets under lead data.

Thx for the info bro!

[Nick_C_S]

Plated bullets, especially in revolver applications, should be loaded to jacketed data.

Plated bullets are not jacketed; and plated bullets are not bare lead either. Here's the first thing you need to understand: Copper has more friction as it slides down the barrel than lead. A plated bullet – although not jacketed – has copper dragging against the barrel; therefore, its friction coefficient with the barrel much more closely resembles that of a jacketed bullet than a lead bullet. So it follows, that it requires more propellant to overcome this friction than it would if the bullet were lead (I have load data proving this). The concern with using lead data is that it is possible (admittedly not likely) to stick a bullet in the bore if it is loaded on the extreme low end of lead data. And this is why I recommend using jacketed data.

There are others who will recommend using lead data; and they would be wrong, frankly. Their logic is based on their fixation on the fact that a plated bullet, if driven too hard, can experience plating breakdown. But to retreat to lead data for the sake of this rare phenomenon (basically only applies with 357/44 Mag, 10mm) is an extreme over reaction. This approach is just doesn't make sense. The much more logical approach is to use jacket data (to alleviate the possibility of a stuck bullet), but to simply be aware of the possibility of plating breakdown, and not drive them too hard. Those in the load-to-lead-data camp are doing so to alleviate something that might happen (plating breakdown), while ignoring something that always happens (copper to barrel friction). It just doesn't make sense.

Admittedly, this debate may be one mostly of academics. For starters, there is a lot of overlap between lead and jacketed data anyway. And in semi-autos, it’s less of an issue. But in revolvers – with the barrel/cylinder gap bleeding off gasses – the danger of a stuck bullet can be very real. Some plated manufacturers recommend loading to lead data. And I believe they are making the same logic error and/or are listening to their lawyers. At the very least, they are oversimplifying the matter because they don’t have the time or inclination to give the explanation I have just stated above.

[TimSr]

Their logic is based on their fixation on the fact that a plated bullet, if driven too hard, can experience plating breakdown.

My logic is based on over expansion of the base of a soft lead bullet when driven at magnum velocities.

My own recommendation, for what its worth, is use jacketed starting data, and stay there, or use lead data for max, unless the lead bullet under the plating has been hardened to some degree. Over expanded soft bullets over driven cause higher pressure and accelerated wear on the forcing cone. Plating bullets tend to alleviate the the primary symptom of leading that indicates a problem, but does not help preserve or control the bullet base expansion like a jacket, which IS the problem.

[abowlieb]

Makes sense to me. Do u happen to know the min OAL, For that load?

[TMD]

I've shot thousands of plated bullets from Rainier and Berrys in 9mm, 40 s&w, and 45acp without issue. Keep them under the recommended maximum velocity of 1200 fps and you wont have an issue.

[TimSr]

I've shot thousands of plated bullets from Rainier and Berrys in 9mm, 40 s&w, and 45acp without issue. Keep them under the recommended maximum velocity of 1200 fps and you wont have an issue.

I agree with this, and its usually not a problem in semi-autos, and only becomes an issues when pushing soft bullets beyond low to mid MAGNUM pressures through the forcing cone of a revolver.

[Sevens]

A lot of good info so far, just one thing missing AND my standard & vocal warning.

The warning: BEWARE OF LOADING TOO LIGHT (especially in revolvers) so that you don't stick a bullet in the barrel for all the reasons Nick C S mentioned. Revolver especially because there is a major escape path for pressure in the flash gap. If you are using even low-end .357 loads, you should be safe against sticking a bullet. BE CAREFUL AT .38 SPECIAL velocities and pressure. Same goes for freakishly light .357 "cowboy" data.

Sticking a plated bullet in a barrel is far less likely in a sealed semi-auto pistol barrel.

The missing item when working with plated, especially in revolver, is to be very aware of your roll crimp. Too much crimp will quickly cut through the thin plating on a bullet and it will corrupt the bullet and ruin accuracy.

Compelling theory with regard to the expanding base of a plated bullet and it makes me wish to learn more... but I am not sure HOW to learn more about that... and literally many tens of thousand of plated bullets downrange successfully have me not at all worried about it.

[Nick_C_S]

Do u happen to know the min OAL, For that load?

According to Berry's, the OAL's for 158/357 are:

FP & HP = 1.580"
. . . .RN = 1.585"

I e-mailed them for this data - it's not on their site.

over expansion of the base of a soft lead bullet when driven at magnum velocities.

Yes, this is a very real consideration too. Speaking for myself, I don't go near a plated bullets structural limitations; if I start to get close, I just move to jacketed. The plated bullet I drive the hardest is a 180gn for 10mm Auto. I have a couple loadings that are just short of the 1100 f/s mark.

The frustrating catch-22 of plated bullets are that at low pressures/velocities, they behave like jacketed bullets; then at high pressures/velocities, they behave like lead bullets. Just the opposite of what would be ideal.

[Jeffm004]

What sevens said. Went lead, had one hang up once.

[Hammerhead]

Love plated in my revolver and carbine.
I like the 158 plated FPs over 6.0 Unique in .357 brass @ 1.585".
I bought a taper crimp die (Redding) just for plated bullets. You don't need much crimp at 1,000 fps or below, and the taper crimp die makes a long gentle crimp that assures no cut plating.

I'll echo Sevens, don't try to make powder puff or magnum loads with plated bullets. 800 to 1,100 fps is a good safe range.

[Nick_C_S]

I bought a taper crimp die (Redding) just for plated bullets.

Good move. For those who load a lot of plated bullets, I recommend the cash outlay for a dedicated taper crimp die.

I happen to have three taper crimp dies just for 38 Special (RCBS)

Two of them are "locked down" for their respective loads that I make tons of. The third one is used for all my other 38/357 taper crimp needs.

BTW, and not to hijack this post into a TCD discussion, but one of my "locked down" TCD's is set for a lead bullet - not a plated bullet. I taper crimp my lead DEWC's for both competition and practice. The taper crimp allows the brass to last much much longer. And there's no performance loss because a DEWC has a plenty of bearing surface to the case to hold it firmly without a roll crimp - with tension to spare, probably.