Is .223 unsutable for CRF?

SPUSCG · February 25, 2010, 08:56 PM

I see a lot of companies advertise "CRF except .223". Why is this? I dont think its size, as 22250s come in CRF.

Crosshair · February 25, 2010, 09:02 PM

What is "CRF"?

SPUSCG · February 25, 2010, 09:07 PM

controlled round feed

Ridge_Runner_5 · February 25, 2010, 09:14 PM

I dont understand the question.

ETA: After researching controlled round feed, I think it can be done.

It is loaded into the chamber via the push method, but I think several of the .223 weapons use a fixed ejector plate as opposed to a spring-loaded one...

Am I getting anywhere near right?

ETA Again: So, basically, a completely flat bolt face, like a shotgun. Pushes the round into the chamber, then closes on it.

When you pull the bolt back, a blade on the bolt guide rods sticks out and forces the cartridge out?

**Mike Irwin** · February 25, 2010, 09:17 PM

You're talking about a Mauser-style claw extractor, which is known for positive control feeding, as opposed to the later push feed actions?

SPUSCG · February 25, 2010, 09:18 PM

Quote:

You're talking about a Mauser-style claw extractor, which is known for positive control feeding, as opposed to the later push feed actions?

yes

Crosshair · February 25, 2010, 09:20 PM

Oh, it's probably because they don't want to both making a scaled down Mauser style action. CZ rifles have controlled round feed if I remember correctly.

5whiskey · February 25, 2010, 09:39 PM

I think it really has more to do with base diameter and length of action than anything. It's alot easier to make the OAL of a push feed action shorter. Also, getting the small recessed "rim" of the .223 to feed into an extractor (think of the cartridge angle when considering long vs. short for a second) will be difficult (though possible). I don't see a huge disadvantage to a push-feed .223 anyway, so why ask for something that's not really needed?

**44 AMP** · February 25, 2010, 09:44 PM

Its not the round itself, its the action size. .22-250 uses the same common .473" head diameter, so all the action needs to be is appropriate to the length, and a number of .22-250s are built on actions longer than that case needs, and use a spacer to block the magazine for proper feeding. The bolt is the same as used for all the other calibers in that head size, .243, 6mm Rem, .308, .30-06, 7 & 8mm Mauser, and a lot of others.

The smaller case head of the .223 means using a smaller bolt, and action size, and there are very few true mini-Mausers using the claw extractor for controlled round feed. Check Kimber, Sako, and CZ, they did at one time have this kind of actions but I don't know if they are still being sold.

SPUSCG · February 25, 2010, 10:52 PM

What do the current ruger hawkeyes use? Their site doesn't say anything about .223 not using controlled feed, so i guess it does? I know the fn model 70s i looked at use push feed for 223.

bobn · February 25, 2010, 11:07 PM

just for a fyi heads up> i owned two different mini mausers that interarms imported a few years ago and neither on feed from the magazine. however my reming 799 did feed 222 from the magazine.....hope that helps on your search, bobn

Jimro · February 25, 2010, 11:37 PM

Ruger M77 MkII

Definitely CRF, was offered in 223, probably still is.

Jimro

rbernie · February 26, 2010, 08:24 AM

The issue is with bolt face size; most manufacturers don't want to rejigger their claw extractor to fit the smaller base/rim of the 5.56/223. Several have; the Zastava Mausers, the CZ, and the Ruger leap to mind.

Scorch · February 26, 2010, 11:43 AM

Quote:

most manufacturers don't want to rejigger their claw extractor to fit the smaller base/rim of the 5.56/223. Several have; the Zastava Mausers, the CZ, and the Ruger leap to mind.

None of those are CRF in 223, they are push feed. Even the Ruger M77 Mk II in 223 is push feed, it has a different bolt face than other Ruger 77 Mk II chamberings. The issue with a CRF 223 has to do with making the action smaller so that the feed rails can release the round under the extractor, and no one wants to make a CRF action for the smaller catridge size. It would be cool, though!

SPUSCG · February 26, 2010, 12:42 PM

So id want to look into a .22-250 for a crf cyote gun then?

Jimro · February 26, 2010, 01:17 PM

Quote:

Even the Ruger M77 Mk II in 223 is push feed, it has a different bolt face than other Ruger 77 Mk II chamberings.

Last I checked on a 223 m77 mkII the only difference was a smaller diameter bolt face. But that was on an older "skeleton stock" Ruger. I did notice that the extractor claw was angled to snap over a round loaded into the chamber, but that is a pretty common feature on CRF rifles (and easy to modify an m98 extractor to snap over the rim too).

Anyways, I don't know what the big deal is with CRF. I've used both and both work fine.

Jimro

SPUSCG · February 26, 2010, 01:20 PM

I just like it. I liek push and controlled feed, just CRF a bit more.

LanceOregon · February 27, 2010, 02:11 AM

The CZ model 527 rifles are the ones you need to look at for a great handling coyote rifle in .223.

.

curmudgeon1 · February 27, 2010, 05:01 AM

I bought a used M4-style carbine last spring and used it for fun shooting at the range, lots of rapid fire and a little bump fire occaisionally; the claw of the extractor broke off after about 3,000 rds. I chalked it up to metal fatigue from snapping over the cartridge (as opposed to crf). Is my thinking about right here, or not ? I don't know who made the extractor, or the bolt.

Jimro · February 27, 2010, 06:34 AM

curmudgeon1,

More than likely you were shooting ammo that was "hard extract". Either because you had a tight new chamber and were using steel cased ammo or some fouling built up and caused rough extraction.

What happens there is that the force required to pull the case from the chamber increases beyond the design specs for the extractor. In terms of strength, CRF simply has a bigger piece of metal pulling back on the cartridge rim than a PRF extractor.

In a tug of war between the two what fails first is the brass. In a repeated stress test the PRF extractor will fail first simply because it has less steel.

And then again, you could have simply had a bad extractor.

Jimro

curmudgeon1 · February 27, 2010, 07:48 AM

Yeah, lotta considerations there. This happened with PMC Bronze ammo, but since that extractor was replaced I've been paying a little more attention to the chamber when cleaning the carbine.

Thx for the thoughts Jimro.

tirod · February 27, 2010, 09:08 AM

Typically a bad extractor on an M4 type carbine is due to simply being cheap non milspec. Not knowing the source company for the parts is a key indicator the assembler (most don't really make guns) was using a value engineered source.

Three thousand rounds is another key indicator, M4's are known to run hard because of the carbine length gas system. Preventive maintenances would indicate that now is a good time to closely inspect all the parts on the bolt carrier group for fatigue cracking. Also inspect the bolt itself for a "MP" marking. If there is none, it indicates that only the batch was inspected by one random sample being tested, not each and every one as per military standards. The possibility of a defective one is higher when inspections aren't done.

Controlled round feeding is a debated topic left over from the '50s era of customizing Mausers after WWII. The people who sell that feature will always explain that it is superior - and the folks who don't, won't. Lots of highly accurate rifles don't have it, it doesn't really do anything to effectively improve the weapon. Don't let it be a major factor in selecting a bolt gun.

rbernie · February 27, 2010, 10:23 AM

Quote:

it doesn't really do anything to effectively improve the weapon. Don't let it be a major factor in selecting a bolt gun.

I very much disagree with this statement; CRF has its place. In a bench/gaming/casual hunting rifle - maybe not. But any rifle that may be used in anger would be well served by controlling the feeding of the rounds at all times.

SPUSCG · February 27, 2010, 10:39 AM

Im mostly a fan of the three position safety that comes on mauser actioned rifles, and crf may be an advantage in the field, ive only used the on the range but they feel very solid..

Lloyd Smale · February 27, 2010, 01:36 PM

next time i have a rabid ground hog attacking me ill worry about whether i have controled round feeding or not.

February 25, 2010, 08:56 PM	#1
SPUSCG Senior Member Join Date: January 25, 2008 Posts: 3,004	Is .223 unsutable for CRF? I see a lot of companies advertise "CRF except .223". Why is this? I dont think its size, as 22250s come in CRF. __________________ Check us out: www.imfdb.org. Fun site for people who love gun movies.

February 25, 2010, 09:02 PM	#2
Crosshair Senior Member Join Date: December 16, 2004 Location: Grand Forks, ND Posts: 5,333	What is "CRF"? __________________ I don't carry a gun to go looking for trouble, I carry a gun in case trouble finds me.

February 25, 2010, 09:07 PM	#3
SPUSCG Senior Member Join Date: January 25, 2008 Posts: 3,004	controlled round feed __________________ Check us out: www.imfdb.org. Fun site for people who love gun movies.

February 25, 2010, 09:17 PM	#5
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,380	You're talking about a Mauser-style claw extractor, which is known for positive control feeding, as opposed to the later push feed actions? __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

February 25, 2010, 09:20 PM	#7
Crosshair Senior Member Join Date: December 16, 2004 Location: Grand Forks, ND Posts: 5,333	Oh, it's probably because they don't want to both making a scaled down Mauser style action. CZ rifles have controlled round feed if I remember correctly. __________________ I don't carry a gun to go looking for trouble, I carry a gun in case trouble finds me.

February 25, 2010, 09:14 PM	#4
Ridge_Runner_5 Senior Member Join Date: February 8, 2008 Location: Denver, CO Posts: 1,925	I dont understand the question. ETA: After researching controlled round feed, I think it can be done. It is loaded into the chamber via the push method, but I think several of the .223 weapons use a fixed ejector plate as opposed to a spring-loaded one... Am I getting anywhere near right? ETA Again: So, basically, a completely flat bolt face, like a shotgun. Pushes the round into the chamber, then closes on it. When you pull the bolt back, a blade on the bolt guide rods sticks out and forces the cartridge out?

February 25, 2010, 09:39 PM	#8
5whiskey Senior Member Join Date: October 23, 2005 Location: US Posts: 3,652	I think it really has more to do with base diameter and length of action than anything. It's alot easier to make the OAL of a push feed action shorter. Also, getting the small recessed "rim" of the .223 to feed into an extractor (think of the cartridge angle when considering long vs. short for a second) will be difficult (though possible). I don't see a huge disadvantage to a push-feed .223 anyway, so why ask for something that's not really needed?

February 25, 2010, 09:44 PM	#9
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,811	action size Its not the round itself, its the action size. .22-250 uses the same common .473" head diameter, so all the action needs to be is appropriate to the length, and a number of .22-250s are built on actions longer than that case needs, and use a spacer to block the magazine for proper feeding. The bolt is the same as used for all the other calibers in that head size, .243, 6mm Rem, .308, .30-06, 7 & 8mm Mauser, and a lot of others. The smaller case head of the .223 means using a smaller bolt, and action size, and there are very few true mini-Mausers using the claw extractor for controlled round feed. Check Kimber, Sako, and CZ, they did at one time have this kind of actions but I don't know if they are still being sold. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

February 25, 2010, 10:52 PM	#10
SPUSCG Senior Member Join Date: January 25, 2008 Posts: 3,004	What do the current ruger hawkeyes use? Their site doesn't say anything about .223 not using controlled feed, so i guess it does? I know the fn model 70s i looked at use push feed for 223. __________________ Check us out: www.imfdb.org. Fun site for people who love gun movies.

February 25, 2010, 11:07 PM	#11
bobn Senior Member Join Date: December 30, 2006 Location: midwest Posts: 1,105	just for a fyi heads up> i owned two different mini mausers that interarms imported a few years ago and neither on feed from the magazine. however my reming 799 did feed 222 from the magazine.....hope that helps on your search, bobn

February 25, 2010, 11:37 PM	#12
Jimro Senior Member Join Date: October 18, 2006 Posts: 7,097	Ruger M77 MkII Definitely CRF, was offered in 223, probably still is. Jimro __________________ Machine guns are awesome until you have to carry one.

February 26, 2010, 08:24 AM	#13
rbernie Senior Member Join Date: August 10, 2004 Location: Plain Ol', TX Posts: 713	The issue is with bolt face size; most manufacturers don't want to rejigger their claw extractor to fit the smaller base/rim of the 5.56/223. Several have; the Zastava Mausers, the CZ, and the Ruger leap to mind. __________________ -A conclusion is not a destination, it's simply a convenient place to stop thinking.- -Reading a thing doesn't automatically make it so; repeating it doesn't necessarily make it any truer.- -Every Texan should be a member of the Texas State Rifle Association.

February 26, 2010, 12:42 PM	#15
SPUSCG Senior Member Join Date: January 25, 2008 Posts: 3,004	So id want to look into a .22-250 for a crf cyote gun then? __________________ Check us out: www.imfdb.org. Fun site for people who love gun movies.

February 26, 2010, 01:20 PM	#17
SPUSCG Senior Member Join Date: January 25, 2008 Posts: 3,004	I just like it. I liek push and controlled feed, just CRF a bit more. __________________ Check us out: www.imfdb.org. Fun site for people who love gun movies.

February 27, 2010, 02:11 AM	#18
LanceOregon Junior member Join Date: May 10, 2008 Location: Oregon Posts: 2,774	The CZ model 527 rifles are the ones you need to look at for a great handling coyote rifle in .223. .

February 27, 2010, 05:01 AM	#19
curmudgeon1 Senior Member Join Date: October 21, 2007 Location: n.e. ohio Posts: 544	I bought a used M4-style carbine last spring and used it for fun shooting at the range, lots of rapid fire and a little bump fire occaisionally; the claw of the extractor broke off after about 3,000 rds. I chalked it up to metal fatigue from snapping over the cartridge (as opposed to crf). Is my thinking about right here, or not ? I don't know who made the extractor, or the bolt.

February 27, 2010, 06:34 AM	#20
Jimro Senior Member Join Date: October 18, 2006 Posts: 7,097	curmudgeon1, More than likely you were shooting ammo that was "hard extract". Either because you had a tight new chamber and were using steel cased ammo or some fouling built up and caused rough extraction. What happens there is that the force required to pull the case from the chamber increases beyond the design specs for the extractor. In terms of strength, CRF simply has a bigger piece of metal pulling back on the cartridge rim than a PRF extractor. In a tug of war between the two what fails first is the brass. In a repeated stress test the PRF extractor will fail first simply because it has less steel. And then again, you could have simply had a bad extractor. Jimro __________________ Machine guns are awesome until you have to carry one.

February 27, 2010, 07:48 AM	#21
curmudgeon1 Senior Member Join Date: October 21, 2007 Location: n.e. ohio Posts: 544	Yeah, lotta considerations there. This happened with PMC Bronze ammo, but since that extractor was replaced I've been paying a little more attention to the chamber when cleaning the carbine.Thx for the thoughts Jimro.

February 27, 2010, 09:08 AM	#22
tirod Junior member Join Date: January 21, 2009 Posts: 1,672	Typically a bad extractor on an M4 type carbine is due to simply being cheap non milspec. Not knowing the source company for the parts is a key indicator the assembler (most don't really make guns) was using a value engineered source. Three thousand rounds is another key indicator, M4's are known to run hard because of the carbine length gas system. Preventive maintenances would indicate that now is a good time to closely inspect all the parts on the bolt carrier group for fatigue cracking. Also inspect the bolt itself for a "MP" marking. If there is none, it indicates that only the batch was inspected by one random sample being tested, not each and every one as per military standards. The possibility of a defective one is higher when inspections aren't done. Controlled round feeding is a debated topic left over from the '50s era of customizing Mausers after WWII. The people who sell that feature will always explain that it is superior - and the folks who don't, won't. Lots of highly accurate rifles don't have it, it doesn't really do anything to effectively improve the weapon. Don't let it be a major factor in selecting a bolt gun.

February 27, 2010, 10:39 AM	#24
SPUSCG Senior Member Join Date: January 25, 2008 Posts: 3,004	Im mostly a fan of the three position safety that comes on mauser actioned rifles, and crf may be an advantage in the field, ive only used the on the range but they feel very solid.. __________________ Check us out: www.imfdb.org. Fun site for people who love gun movies.

February 27, 2010, 01:36 PM	#25
Lloyd Smale Junior member Join Date: February 11, 2005 Posts: 822	next time i have a rabid ground hog attacking me ill worry about whether i have controled round feeding or not.

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