April 18, 2012, 07:54 AM | #1 |
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handgun transfer
I have been really wanting to buy a handgun so I can start shooting steel competitions and maybe IDPA. Problem is, I'm not 21 until September. So, I was on the ATF website and they stated that a non FFL person can transfer a weapon to another person who lives within the same state. Does this apply to handguns? And to those under 21? If so, are there any accompanying forms that need to be filled and filed? I was going to contact the ATF to get the lowdown on this, but I know people on here are quite knowledgeable so maybe I won't need to. Basically, if this is legal, I want to know the correct way to do it so neither I nor the person who is transferring it will get in any kind of trouble.
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April 18, 2012, 08:14 AM | #2 |
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Contact the ATF to verify, anyway, or at least verify advice you get here on the appropriate federal and state websites.
That said, I was at the LGS yesterday, and they had copies of an ATF notice on the wall that said federal law prohibits the sale of handguns to persons under 18. Your state may have tighter restrictions. But verify for yourself. It is a potential felony if you get it wrong. |
April 18, 2012, 08:18 AM | #3 |
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Mleake is right. Fed law prohibits sale of a handgun to anyone under 18 and also prohibits an FFL sale to anyone under 21. That means that Fed law allows a private sale to someone between the ages of 18 and 21. State law, however, may be another thing. I can't answer for PA - you'll have to research that.
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April 18, 2012, 10:54 AM | #4 |
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The ATF will give you the runaround, and you will likely get contradictory advice.
An FFL cannot transfer a handgun to anyone under the age of 21. That's a restriction on them, not on you. You can legally own one at 18, though there might be some state-level restrictions on where you can have it. You might have some trouble buying ammo as well, but again, there's no law against having it. It is perfectly legal for someone to purchase it, then give it to you as a gift.
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April 18, 2012, 11:15 AM | #5 | |
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Quote:
The OP will need to look into Pennsylvania law on the question.
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April 18, 2012, 11:21 AM | #6 |
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State Law counts more than the ATF when it comes to 18-21 year olds.
The ATF states that a Federaly licensed Firearms dealer (FFL) cannot SELL to anyone under 21, that is all it states. It does not say that a person 18-21 cannot PURCHASE a firearm (yes, includes a pistol). It also does NOT say that a person under 21 cannot inheirit, OWN, or possess a firearm (including a pistol). Those all come under your state laws. If it is legal in your STATE for a person to own, possess, and purchase Face to Face, go that way...but understand you state law first. (PA has no restrictions that I know of) |
April 18, 2012, 11:26 AM | #7 | ||
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OP,
The relivant statute is: 18 Pa.C.S. § 6111: Sale or transfer of firearms http://reference.pafoa.org/statutes/...r-of-firearms/ Quote:
Also, keep in mind question 11a on the 4473. Quote:
Have a chipper day! Last edited by Fishing_Cabin; April 18, 2012 at 12:54 PM. |
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April 18, 2012, 01:21 PM | #8 |
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April 19, 2012, 12:26 PM | #9 | |
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Thanks Fishing Cabin, I figured there was a hitch somewhere. Basically, for me to be 20 and own a handgun, it must be a gift from a parent. I'm a little confused as to the "Actual Buyer/Transferee" section. If I'm understanding correctly, according to this, "You are the actual transferee/buyer if you are legitimately purchasing the firearm as a gift for a third party," a parent would be the actual buyer if they were to gift it to me.
However, I'm confused as to the actual ownership. I thought that handguns were registered to the owner by serial number. 18 Pa.C.S. § 6111.4 states that, Quote:
I can't stand legal jargon, it confuses the heck out of me. Is this something the local PD would be knowledgeable in? Maybe a trip there would help clear things up. |
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April 19, 2012, 12:55 PM | #10 | ||||
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Note also that state law may contain other requirements with which the FFL (or even a private seller) must comply before selling a handgun to a potential purchaser, such as verifying that the purchaser has a purchase permit, or waiting an allotted number of days before transferring the pistol to the purchaser. You'll need to check your state laws for these. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
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April 19, 2012, 01:36 PM | #11 | ||
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Spats, I hope you forgive my mistake of not including that a FFL needs to adhere to state laws also.
Quote:
From http://www.pafoa.org/law also please note, Quote:
If you want to go speak with someone in law enforcement, I will recommend that you go to the sheriff's office for the county you live in, and speak to the person there who deals with firearm issues. Most Police departments do not handle the permiting process, though there are exceptions. Speaking with a lawyer who is experienced with this area of law is a good thing as well. Also feel free to research this yourself. |
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April 19, 2012, 01:49 PM | #12 | |
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April 19, 2012, 02:02 PM | #13 |
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Not at all Spats...I do my best to read, and reread my post here when trying to point people in a direction for facts. Sometimes my mind decides to take a vacation for a few and I miss something.
No worries mate, G'day |
April 19, 2012, 09:43 PM | #14 |
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Fishing Cabin, I read through the PA statutes you linked, and the only reference to age that I could find prohibited transfer to or possession by a person under 18. I did not find a reference to a requirement for age 21, but it's possible I just missed it.
If you found a specific requirement that the OP wait until he is 21, could you provide the exact subsection and paragraph? (Not calling you out, I just failed to find it.) |
April 20, 2012, 06:18 AM | #15 | ||
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Quote:
Quote:
As I mentioned earlier it seems a person 18 and up, gifted a handgun it seems to be exempted by the same paragraph. Perhaps others may know of another way that I could not readliy cite. If so, I would be glad to make note of them myself. Last edited by Fishing_Cabin; April 20, 2012 at 06:33 AM. |
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April 20, 2012, 07:43 AM | #16 |
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I figured I had missed something, and what I had missed was the requirement for FFL transfer as though seller. Thanks for the clarification. I believe you nailed it.
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April 20, 2012, 09:05 AM | #17 |
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OK. Now I want to make sure that I understand PA law on this. I've dug through the statutes, but I'd like to run this past y'all. FC, I'm depending on you to correct me if I'm wrong, but if I understand this correctly. In very broad strokes:
1) Persons between 18 and 20 may possess firearms, both handguns and long guns 2) All firearms transfers must go through a licensed dealer (or the sherriff's office), who must act as if he or she was the actual seller, excepting spousal and parental and grandparental transfers 3) The dealer may not transfer a handgun to anyone under the age of 21. Does that sound about right? Edited to add: The above assumes that all persons involved are non-prohibited persons.
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April 20, 2012, 11:39 AM | #18 |
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Do you live with or close to your Mom or Dad? No reason to complicate a simple issue.
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April 20, 2012, 02:51 PM | #19 |
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Spats, thats what I see in the law. The unique issue with PA law is the requirement in section (c) for a private purchase to be through a FFL, or sheriffs office, with the noted exceptions.
Pa did a good job to put most everything in to writing it seems, with some minor exceptions. Its just not always clear on the first read. MLeake, no problem at all. I hope everyone here has a wonderful day! |
April 22, 2012, 09:40 PM | #20 | |
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April 22, 2012, 10:16 PM | #21 |
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The problem is that PA -- by law -- does not have a "registry." However -- the PA State Police DO maintain a database of firearms sales through FFLs. So if your parents purchase a handgun and give it to you, their purchase (Mom or Dad, only one will be the actual purchaser) will be entered into the PA State Police database.
There is NOTHING illegal about your parental unit then giving the handgun to you, and the transfer does not have to go through an FFL or be reported to the State Police. The problem is, even though the sales database is not a complete registry and is KNOWN not to be a complete registry -- and the courts in PA have ruled that it is NOT a "registry" in violation of the state law specifically because of the fact that it is NOT a complete registry ... nonetheless, many PA police departments like to behave as if the database IS a complete registry. If they have any excuse to interact with you on an official basis, many of them WILL take your pistol and run the serial number, and if it doesn't sow up as your name they may confiscate the firearm. This is illegal, of course, but it happens regularly. However, if the firearm is a gift from your father, the last name will be the same, the first name may even be the same, and you're living at home so the address will be the same. So there shouldn't be a problem. |
April 23, 2012, 12:33 PM | #22 | |
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April 23, 2012, 12:46 PM | #23 |
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Tom,
I think the case is titled ACSL et. al. v. Tom Ridge, or is listed as such on the ACSL website. I am unsure if this is the exact case that PAFOA is speaking of, but its the only one I have found. Allegheny County Sportsmen’s League's website has some discussion on it. Link: http://www.acslpa.org/html/gun_registration1.html Hope this helps Last edited by Fishing_Cabin; April 23, 2012 at 12:52 PM. |
April 23, 2012, 01:21 PM | #24 |
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A quick Westlaw search using the information provided by Fishing_Cabin turned up: ALLEGHENY SPORTSMEN'S LEAGUE, Kim Stolfer, et al. v. Tom RIDGE, et al., cited as: Allegheny Sportsmen's League v. Ridge, 790 A.2d 350 (Pa. Commw. Ct. 2002) aff'd sub nom. Allegheny County Sportsmen's League v. Rendell, 580 Pa. 149, 860 A.2d 10 (2004).
I didn't read the case in depth, but my very cursury review shows that the PA Supreme Court looked at it this way: The statute in question prohibits the creation of a registry of firearm ownership. A firearms ownership registry would encompass all firearms, including both handguns and long guns, and would have to include every transfer. What the PA did was create a registry of sorts, but it's a registry of the sales of handguns. That's different, and not prohibited by the statute at issue.
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April 23, 2012, 01:24 PM | #25 |
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That looks like it, all right. I can't find the text of the actual decision, but it looks like the petition was denied because the ACSL couldn't prove damages.
Would the issue perhaps be ripe for another lawsuit at this point? Corbett seems marginally better on 2nd Amendment issues than Ridge was.
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