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Old June 29, 2014, 12:52 PM   #1
Metal god
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So what's the big BBQ glove for when shooting CMP service rifle ?

What's the reason for the glove and it's design ? For that matter how about those fancy jackets ??? There must be a reason for all the bells and whistles on those as well .

I'm in the middle of my service rifle build for competition and was looking at how guys shoot in each position . First thing I noticed was the glove and jackets . How much are those things going to cost me . The rifle is putting a dent into the wallet and now It looks like I'll need an Armani jacket and Bobby Flay glove I'm in so-cal and that means I BBQ 2 or 3 times a week , year round . I have a BBQ glove that sure looks a lot like that shooting glove but no fancy straight jacket .

All kidding a side , are those things a must if you plan to compete and not just participate ?
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Old June 29, 2014, 01:44 PM   #2
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Yes, you need all that stuff, for the same reasons you need a Porsche to drive to the grocery, or $600 worth of gear to go walking a trail in the woods.
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Old June 29, 2014, 01:51 PM   #3
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I've never seen the gloves at the CMP shoots here but a lot of the older guys wear the jackets. asside from it usually being cold as heck during the fall and winter matches here, the coats have heavy padding in the right shoulder so that guys can shoot for extended periods with metal buttplates without bruising their shoulders. I would assume gloves would give a better grip on the rifle for more stability since slings aren't permitted. just a guess though, I'm sure KraigWY will be here soon to chime in.
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Old June 29, 2014, 02:02 PM   #4
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Used to be the "chicken mitt" was to stop frying the weak hand during long strings of rapid fire.
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Old June 29, 2014, 02:28 PM   #5
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I always thought the coats and other "accessories" were "cheats", and you should shoot in your street clothes or utilities. But thats just me.

Then again, I always thought for DCM/CMP shoots, you should use service grade guns with an ammo draw. No "tuned" guns or ammo.

Quote:
the coats have heavy padding in the right shoulder so that guys can shoot for extended periods with metal buttplates without bruising their shoulders.
The coats are more for securing or locking the gun in, providing support, and giving padding for your elbows. Softening recoil is minor additional benefit (not that 30-06, .308, or 5.56 are heavy kickers).

To this day, I shoot my M1's, M1A's, and 03's, as well as a few other military rifles with steel butt plates in my street clothes, and usually a tee shirt or a light shirt in the summer. 50 rounds at an outing is my norm, sometimes a 100, and Im never bruised.

Quote:
I would assume gloves would give a better grip on the rifle for more stability since slings aren't permitted.
The glove is for shooting with a sling, which is permitted for all but offhand. It takes the load off the back of your hand and again, helps lock the gun in.
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Old June 29, 2014, 02:33 PM   #6
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The only thing needed to shoot Highpower is a rifle, ammo and safety gear[ear and eye protection]. The rest are things to make the day more comfortable. When in position a tight sling cuts into the hand. The glove offers cushioning. The jacket provides elbow pads,shoulder pad and pulse pad. Remember some ranges have concrete firing lines. Naked elbows on cement would just be ugly. A sweat shirt and the coat insulates the heart beat.
The game is about precision shooting. There's a lot more then point the gun and pull the trigger. An .008" movement of the rifle results in 3" change at the 300 yard target. That's the width of the X ring. The coat, good tight sling and glove help reduce unnecessary movements.
The catalogues are full of gadgets. Some can really aid the shooter but the nut behind the trigger is the one that counts.

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Old June 29, 2014, 03:35 PM   #7
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As far as the equipment being cheats, it's a game, with rules, and they're allowed. So...

The mitt is for grip against the foreend of the rifle and to protect your hand from the sling. It also helps isolate the rifle from your pulse for less sight movement. And I always found it nice to protect my fingertips when shooting offhand.

For shooting service rifle, I think a jacket, glove, shooting mat and spotting scope are almost "must haves". You can shoot without them, usually by borrowing pieces from other shooters. In the long run the initial cost of the rifle is insignificant to rest of the costs of competing.
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Old June 29, 2014, 04:31 PM   #8
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I recall snapping in endlessly with an M-14.
Then qualifying at Edson Range.
We marched to and from the range.
I was the foghorn.
A shooting glove and jacket were standard issue to everyone in the platoon.
I don't recall if the glove & jacket were used several years later when qualifying with the M-16. I don't think so.
I'm sort of sure I fired the M-16 in utilities only.
(pre-cammies)
It makes sense to me for an M-1 or M-14 shooter to use a jacket and glove. If it wasn't, then why did Uncle Sam make us use them?
I was waved a Maggie drawers on one shot during qual-day and I called the D.I. saying that target was not missed. The D.I. called for a remark on target 19 and it came back up as a hit in the black.
My best guess is that if a person does not see the need for the glove, and that person shoots an M-1 or M-14, then that person is not getting the best marksmanship training.
Apart from my primary or secondary MOS in the Corps, I was a rifleman. They all were in those days. That sling was tight. That elbow was bent way under. And when the D.I. slapped your muzzle while snapping in, it better not move.
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Old June 29, 2014, 04:40 PM   #9
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Try jamming your bare hand between thumb and fore finger into service sling swivel with the sling wrapped tight around your hand pressing it against the fore end as you're holding the rifle hard into your shoulder. . .for 25 minutes shooting 2 MOA or better 20-shot groups at long range.

Do it with and without a scope and note how much pulse beat is isolated from the rifle from your heart pumping blood into the muscles trying to hold your bones still when you're wearing that BBQ mitt.

Those shooting coats and pants are designed to help hold your body still while aiming.

Last edited by Bart B.; June 29, 2014 at 07:44 PM.
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Old June 29, 2014, 04:53 PM   #10
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Wow, never saw a glove or jacket during my 3 year tour in the Army with the M-14. I qualified expert 5 times in three years. Remember the first time I shot the M-14 and really bruised my shoulder until our DI taught us the secret of holding the rifle tight against your shoulder. He even demonstrated shooting the rifle off of his crotch. I know early in Vietnam before the arrival of the M-16 all of us grunts had M-14s and no glove or padded jacket; hell the flack vest didn’t even cover where the stock of the rifle was placed.
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Old June 29, 2014, 05:16 PM   #11
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Never used 'em in the AF either. Matches, oh yeah everybody was into any little thing that would get them an extra .005 (adjusted for aggregate from last year & handicap).
That's why I stopped competitive shooting, it became an equipment game, not any kind of skill test.
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Old June 29, 2014, 05:21 PM   #12
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I'm gearing up for a little Service Rifle competition myself, and have largely been working on my standing slow fire shooting. I bought a pretty basic Creedmoor coat. It doesn't stabilize my position - my stance and skeleton seems to have that covered as well as they can. Any improvement there will come from practice and improving my stance, methinks. The jacket does, however, help me place the rifle in the same place, obtain the same cheekweld, and place my support elbow more consistently.

When standing, I use a "reverse grip" with my support hand, and the glove (I was using a regular ol' cheap ski glove) pads my wrist and lower portion of my hand, which is up against the magwell. When using a sling in seated and prone, the padding against a very tight sling is much appreciated. The elbow pads on the jacket are helpful when prone, too.


An approach I learned from handgun competition and from my earlier life as a competitive cyclist that's been a big help so far: If you're going to be serious about it, don't obsess over gear, but do look at what's pretty standard in that sport; then get it, and start practicing/training your butt off.
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Old June 29, 2014, 07:06 PM   #13
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Quote:
Never used 'em in the AF either. Matches, oh yeah everybody was into any little thing that would get them an extra .005 (adjusted for aggregate from last year & handicap).
That's why I stopped competitive shooting, it became an equipment game, not any kind of skill test.
With due respect of your other talents, you are ill informed or totally ignorant of competitive shooting with hand-held rifles.

Have you ever watched four shooters with a wide range of marksmanship skills across them shoot the same rifle and ammo in a team match it was just used to win the individual match?

Last edited by Bart B.; June 29, 2014 at 07:26 PM.
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Old June 29, 2014, 07:40 PM   #14
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Well there seems to be good reason to use these aids . I shot 300yds a couple days ago at the 600yd reduced target . I can see Bart's point as to how those things could help . I was using my 16" carbine with irons just to see if I was going to be able to even see the target . To my surprise I had no problem seeing the target and all shots were on target . Not all in the black but I was able to count all shots fired on the paper . Considering that was the first time I ever shot that far with irons . I'm very happy and encouraged . Now I can't wait to start shooting in competition and is why I'm asking about some of these other things I'll need to shoot . OK maybe not need but should use because my fellow competitors will be using them and have that edge .

I had found that Creedmor jacket as well and like it . Is that reasonable price . When I was done picking the opitions I wanted the cost was $169 . They have a glove on that sight as well for $28 or $38 . It has the fingers open and I like that idea . Is there a benifit to the mit as compared to the glove with fingers tips cut off ? I'm in an area with great weather so cold is almost never an issue .
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Old June 29, 2014, 07:45 PM   #15
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When I started I used a welding glove, a web sling, and shot in my M65 BDU Field Jacket. You can get your Sharpshooter’s card with this level of gear.

At some point I bought the big mitt, the heavy shooting jacket, all the gear, and now, it has gotten so bad, that I can’t shoot well, prone, unless I am in the strait jacket. Which only proves that highpower shooters are crazy, as they wear a heavy quilted coat, with a sweat shirt, in 90 degree weather.
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Old June 29, 2014, 08:13 PM   #16
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Yeah that was another question I had .those jackets must be hot . My range is in the east county . That means 10* hotter then where I live . Meaning it's often in the 80s at the range . I don't want to be uncomfortable while shooting . Do they make a light jacket with all the pads in all the right places .
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Old June 29, 2014, 08:21 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Metal god
I had found that Creedmor jacket as well and like it . Is that reasonable price . When I was done picking the opitions I wanted the cost was $169 .
I'm happy with my coat. I wasn't quite ready to drop four bills on a deluxe hardback, and the one I got has been working well for me, so all in all, I think it's a reasonable price. I didn't opt for the terry collar, flag, or creedmoor patch, but I did get the sling hook. I know I can't use it in SR, but it seemed it might come in handy if I use the coat for other forms of competition.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Metal god
They have a glove on that sight as well for $28 or $38 . It has the fingers open and I like that idea . Is there a benifit to the mit as compared to the glove with fingers tips cut off ? I'm in an area with great weather so cold is almost never an issue .
I bought a full-fingered glove (Gehmann). I like it, but I live in warm weather, and compared to a fingerless mitt, it can be a bit tougher to get on and off once it (quickly) gets sweaty inside. But right now, I'm using a reverse grip with my support hand in the standing position, and my thumb gets real close to the ejection port (it actually blocks the ejecting case, so they fall right at my feet), so a full thumb puts my mind at ease.


Quote:
Originally Posted by wogpotter
That's why I stopped competitive shooting, it became an equipment game, not any kind of skill test.
To your credit, you stopped. Many don't and seem unhappy. Not only do they gripe incessantly, they suggest those who don't share their bare-bones philosophy "bought" their wins.

FWIW, one of the things that's attracting me to Service Rifle comp is that it does seem pretty standardized.
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Old June 29, 2014, 08:52 PM   #18
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Metal God, lighter weight coats are available. They're used by smallbore shooters.

http://www.champchoice.com/store/Mai...yBody&c=SACOIS
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Old June 30, 2014, 07:42 AM   #19
wogpotter
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Quote:
With due respect of your other talents, you are ill informed or totally ignorant of competitive shooting with hand-held rifles.
Let me suggest an alternative option.


With due respect of your other talents, you are ill informed or totally ignorant of my track record of competitive shooting with hand-held rifles.
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Old June 30, 2014, 10:16 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Metal god
Do they make a light jacket with all the pads in all the right places .
That coat I linked to above is about half the weight of a full Creedmoor hardback (5.25lbs vs 10.5lbs), and still lighter than their "Lite" Cordura coat (8lbs).

It gets hot here in NC, too; but though I'll sweat through my t-shirt and even my sweatshirt, I've not yet felt overheated, or that my performance was affected by being hot (at least at during my practice sessions). I do drink plenty of water, though, and have a towel handy to wipe sweat before it drips in my eye or slickens the buttstock.
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Old June 30, 2014, 11:15 AM   #21
Bart B.
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Wogpotter, if you're a fullbore competitor at Great Britian's Bisley range, I think you would know that if everyone had a super accurate rifle and ammo that shot no worse than 1/10th MOA at 1000 yards, only those competitors with good marksmanship skills will produce good scores.

My read of your following remarks:
Quote:
Never used 'em in the AF either. Matches, oh yeah everybody was into any little thing that would get them an extra .005 (adjusted for aggregate from last year & handicap).
That's why I stopped competitive shooting, it became an equipment game, not any kind of skill test.
... led me to believe and skill and knowledge level of marksmanship was not going to help produce good scores.

It's always been a marksmanship game; expecially in Great Britain, the country and it's Commonwealth brethern, who decided a century ago that the best way to measure marksmanship skills across the many competitive shooters was to issue everyone SMLE .303's and the same lot of ammunition. That would level the playing field as only the best marksmanship endowed copmpetitors would shoot the best scores and win. No handloaded nor reloaded ammo was allowed.

No concerns nor issues whatsoever of the fact that all those SMLE's didn't shoot a given lot of ammo to the same accuracy level. Nor do they all have the same trigger pulling properties. And their barrels have all sorts of differences in both bore and groove diameters as well as wear. If the previous year's winner of the big annual match just happened to draw the least accurate rifle, he would place near the bottom of the scoreboard regardless of applying the best marksmanship skills known to mankind.

Better equipment helps all marksmanship skill levels. It helps those with lesser skills in marksmanship more easily see what their errors are and not have to blame the equipment. Everyone improves their marksmanship skills quicker with better equipment; more accurate rifles and ammo.

Last edited by Bart B.; June 30, 2014 at 11:41 AM.
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Old June 30, 2014, 02:27 PM   #22
wogpotter
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I was, several times. I made it to the level of that award 3 times.

So you've never bought a shooting "goodie" because it "gives you an edge" over the competition?

You were right about how shooting USED to be though. It was a challenge of individual skill. You'd "lay in the dirt" & try to best both yourself & everyone else on the firing line as hard as you could. Then at the end of the day you'd sit in the bar with those same people considering them great company as you dissected the days successes & not so successful things.

Now even "F" class is a gadget game. Everything is the gun's ability. Bags fore & aft, rests with micrometer adjustments & bull barrels you could use to mount a street light on.

My point was that individual skills were replaced by an obsession with the latest "sanctioned" gadget, & that those were reducing the need for actual skills in competitors accordingly. I've heard several times that it's "impossible" to hit a bulls-eye at 1,000 yards without a scope! Even after explaining that its a BIG bullseye on a 5' X 5' target its supposedly not doable. I have no idea how they think Palma is conducted as its obviously totally not doable!
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Old June 30, 2014, 05:38 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wogpotter
So you've never bought a shooting "goodie" because it "gives you an edge" over the competition?
Personally, I've bought my share of competition gear, but not because I thought it'd give me an edge over my competition, but moreso because without it, I'd needlessly be handicapping myself. Why do that? It's a competition, after all.

Look, there are many pistol shooters who don't have a prayer against me no matter what gear they're using, and there are many shooters I don't have a prayer against no matter what gear I'm using. The gear fine tune one's performance, and allows one to shoot to their potential, and since the competition between your peers is tight, it matters. I for one don't want to come home from a big match empty handed because my gear underperformed by the tiniest margin that I also happened to lose by.

In the case of Service Rifle, so far all I see is that a shooter with a good upper with a good barrel, a good lower with a good trigger, good ammo, a coat and a BBQ glove can win matches if they're up to it.
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Old June 30, 2014, 06:27 PM   #24
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Yeah that was another question I had .those jackets must be hot . My range is in the east county . That means 10* hotter then where I live . Meaning it's often in the 80s at the range . I don't want to be uncomfortable while shooting . Do they make a light jacket with all the pads in all the right places .

Check the surplus outlets. many will still have the USMC lightweight shooting jackets.
Most are commercial makes now and come in other colors, but these are a light field jacket-like coat with pads on the elbows, shoulder, and as I remember, a pad on the upper arm for use with the sling.

Here's an example:

http://www.armynavysales.com/product...hooter-jacket/
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Old June 30, 2014, 07:14 PM   #25
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I am skeptical of goodies, especially adjustable goodies that come loose. I don’t agree with the idea that equipment trumps skill. Better equipment will help someone shoot better and the equipment used in American NRA highpower and small bore prone shooting sports has evolved considerably since Army support ended 1969-1970. Prior to then, the Army had the big vote at the rules committee and depending on time period, they wanted shooters to use a rifle that looked and operated similar to a M1903 or a Garand. The Army viewed the shooting sports as a training ground for future draftees. When I have looked at the rules of the period, or talked to shooters of the period, there were severe limits on weight, stock configuration, for match rifles. As an example, you could only use 308 Win or 30-06 cartridges, there was a time when a match rifle could not weigh more than 10 pounds and had to have a fixed cheekpiece and fixed buttplate. Triggers were around 3.5 pounds. Service rifle had severe limitations, basically the service rifle had to look like a service rifle even though internally, it was not. As the US lost to the Russians in International Small bore competition the rules limiting smallbore rifle configuration were relaxed. Small bore prone rifles made prior to the mid 60’s have heavy triggers, fixed buttplates, fixed cheekpieces, but after rule relaxation, triggers only had to be safe, and stocks were being created with adjustments.

I still shoot Highpower, mid and long range, and small bore prone. For XTC I have seen the bolt action match rifle of the 70’s, (which were basically a M70 or M700 in 308 Win) disappear from the firing line. In my opinion, the most competitive rifle is built around a AR type action, in a 6mm or 6.5mm cartridge. In many matches I am still banging away with a pre 64 M70 in 308 Win, good gas gun shooters are always ahead of me in the rapids, standing, well I used to be good, long range, the better shooters have the better scores regardless of equipment. No one is going to win an XTC with a WW1 service rifle, such as M1903, Mauser, or SMLE, and no one should expect to. The Garand and M1a have been replaced by the AR15. With an AR15 you do about the same standing, do much better in the rapids, and a little worse at long range, but not by much. At the end of the day, the AR15 will have the higher score.

At the smallbore matches I attend, I can say you can't buy a match with equipment. One of the better smallbore shots around here, a multiple State Champion, is using a 1978 Anschutz. Another gentleman, who is a gunsmith, his rifles are highly customized , individualized and he is doing exceptionally well. But, I don’t believe it is just the rifle, the gunsmith guy practices with a SCATT target system http://www.championshooters.com/inde...106&Itemid=111 when he is not practicing with live ammunition on his land. I have seen a number of small bore prone shooters who have the latest and greatest equipment, and equipment does not buy them a match.

I am a sling shooter, have not tried F class, but the F class National Champions I know, are outstanding shooters. The older shooter, he has given up prone with a sling and irons, but when he could see a post, he was a HM. The younger F Class shooter is concentrating on F Class, but is an outstanding shooter. Both of these shooters have won Nationally in F Class tactical, which requires the use of the 308, and the primary reason (in my opinion) is that both of these shooters are outstanding wind readers. You can’t buy sight alignment, trigger pull, and wind reading ability.

If you want to win, you do have to keep up with equipment, calibers, and bullets. Just like any other sport, things change, and often, change adds to the score. I have seen a lot of shooters come and go. There are those who if they are no longer winning, they won’t show up. For them, shooting was just a huge ego trip. I have heard these types complain about everything and anything, and create some invented reason for why they are not longer shooting, but it really comes down to the fact that they are no longer winning and they can't stand being someone "who used to be good".
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