.30-'06 questions

[Khornet]

Two things: I'm loading for the M1, and bought some bulk 147gr FMJBT Winchester bullets. Not satisfied with my results, I measured them. 85% mike .307, not .308. So is the .308 a 'nominal' number, or is it supposed to represent the true diameter? Selected bullets which mike .3075-.308 group much better. Did I get a bum batch?

Second, certain of my M1 handloads leave the case smeared with soot on firing, soot often reaching to the case head. Others don't. What's up wit dat?

[swampyMO]

Khornet,

Don't know about the bullet diameter thing, but I do believe that they should be more consistent than that....

Re the soot... Sounds like you are not getting full obturation. Are these rounds loaded on the low end of the pressure range?? If so, maybe you should up your load a little.

Just my .02,
Swampy

[Khornet]

Thanks. The soot occurs with loads both on the low and high end. Bad obturation is my guess too. This week I hope to test whether the larger diameter bullets both group better and soot less. If so, there's my answer...better bullets.

[Johnny Guest]

- - - While I've loaded a LOT of .30-06 ammo, I've never done so for the Garand. I keep seeing references to needing to operate within a certain range of pressure/velocity/bullet weights, to keep from damaging the rifle, especially the operating rod.

You might want to do a search on reloading for the M1 and see what the membershipo comes up with. I believe 4895 and 4064 powders were developed especially for the M1 during WW-II. Now I've shared ALL my knowledge on this topic.

Best of luck,
Johnny

[Khornet]

Thanks. I've sought and received recs for M1 loads here and elsewhere. As usual, lots of very helpful advice here.

Interestingly, so fay my M1 doesn't seem to prefer 4895 or 4064 with either 168 gr match bullets or 147 gr FMJBT. The best I've been able to do with these at 100 yds is 5" 10-shot groups. The winner so far is...............748 with a magnum primer. Go figure. But I've squeezed the group down to 3 1/2" with 49.5 gr. 748. And no soot on the cases either.

Maybe there is something about my chamber dimensions that requires a certain pressure curve to seal the case against the chamber, or to cause adequate obturation. Or maybe I just have a bum batch of bullets.

[C.R.Sam]

Looks like you are gettin it worked out.

A thought. Undersized bullet may not have enough neck tension... allowing the bullet to get into the bore before pressure rises enough to seal the case to the chamber.

Sam

[LONGRIFLE30]

I don't know what your loads are, but try 58.0 grains of IMR-4350 This is a good starting load for the garand with 147 grainers, and if they are tracers or AP, drop 2 grains, as they have longer bearing surfaces and will bring up higher pressureas. I have a Garand, an '03 and a Rem. 700, all in the great old chambering of .30-06. All I need is a P-17, P-14 and a B.A.R.
Put enough crimp for an auto, but not too much crimp, as it boosts pressures.

[Khornet]

Thanks. You answered a question for me before I had a chance to ask. I've not been crimping at all, but will start now. I thought 4350 was supposed to be a 'marginal' M1 powder, almost too slow and tough on op rods. Then again, 748 isn't supposed to be the best choice either, and it's working for me. Here goes.....

[Gewehr98]

That's an awfully slow-burning powder for the M1 gas system. Port pressures with that stuff could indeed raise hell with the oprod.

[LONGRIFLE30]

Get yourself some of the FN bullets from Widener's. They are both consistent in weight and diameter, and are real accurate in my M-1, '03, and Rem.700. While I've never tried the Win. bullets you mention, they sound really inconsistent. Good luck. By the way, the FN bullets are about $68/1000 + S&H, last time I got some.

[Art Eatman]

That load of 4350, itself, is fine for chamber pressure.

However, the fly in the ointment of relying on chamber pressure data for the Garand is that you don't know the pressure at the gas port.

The Garand was designed for pressure at the port of 2,000 psi. (The usual IIRC; somebody at the CMP website might know for sure.) Anyhow, the pressure at the port is a function of the curve of pressure vs. time--and that varies all over the place with different powders.

Now, we know for sure that around 47 grains of 4895 pretty much duplicates the GI load. About 48 grains of 4064.

Purely opinion, but I imagine the pressure at the gas port, for equal chamber pressures, would be higher for the slower burning of two powders. I would have some concern over the use of 4350.

Purely FWIW,

Art

[swampyMO]

Art wrote:

"Purely opinion, but I imagine the pressure at the gas port, for equal chamber pressures, would be higher for the slower burning of two powders. I would have some concern over the use of 4350."

ME TOO !!!

Swampy

[Patrick Graham]

I've has similar unsatisfactory results with the 147 fmj's in my garands.

One thing Ive noticed is that seating to the channelur (sp?) in the 147's seats the bullet deepr in the case than if I had used the pulled mil spec 150 gr non-boat tail. The over all length of the loaded round with the 147's is less and I've had a few miss feeds with those shorther rounds.

Now I'm only loading the pulled mill spec 150-152gr Spitzer and pulled 173 gr match m72 in my garands.

[Art Eatman]

Patrick, I think I'd just seat to the standard GI overall length, regardless of what bullet I used. I'd just play with the appropriate amount of 4895 to get the standard GI 47,000 psi...

$0.02, Art

[Khornet]

.....the one that looks like a big hex nut, GI M2 ball rounds measure 3.737", and that's the depth I've been seating with the 147s. Doesn't seat them to the cannelure, but so what. Pulled flat-base GI bullets from 1942 WRA M2 Ball rounds, seated to the cannelure, actually come out 3.755" but feed ok. Sure seems as of the 147 gr bullet isn't very good in M1. Maybe it's really meant to be a 7.62 NATO bullet.

[LONGRIFLE30]

You folks could be right, but 4350 hasn't given me any problems...knock on wood. I have also had guys on "Sniper Country" tell me 190 gr. Match Kings are too heavy for the op rod and bolt on my M1-A, but she loves em, I just make sure I don't run them out the door too fast.

[Doctari]

Garands shoot better with flat base spire points. Original M2 ball was loaded with those types of bullets. Khornet you don't say how old your Garand barrel is, or what the muzzle looks like. Does it group factory ammo any better? Match ammo?

I agree that your batch of Winchester bullets is out of tolerance

Mike

[C.R.Sam]

Should have plenty of neck tension without crimp.....check it. Then add crimp. If you have inadequate neck tension due to size of bullet vs expander plug......then drimp alone will not retain the bullet well enough to get decent pressure before the slug is in the bore.

Sam

[Khornet]

My M1 is a H&R 1950s production rifle with SA 1964 barrel, SA trigger group and op rod. Barrel seems in great shape. Arsenal reworked 1/65.

It has been shooting better with M2 ball LC66 than with my handloads, except one load of 168 gr match bullets with 748 powder.

I think the neck tension with these Win. 147 gr bullets is weak because they're undersized. You can fell the difference when seating pulled M2 flat base bullets.

[mbott]

The following comes from the NRA reprint on the M1 Rifle. Since this isn't my data and comes from a somewhat old source, I post for discussion and as "reference only".

"Reloads for the M1 Rifle

I want to reload ammunition for my M1 Rifle. Other shooters tell me to be careful in my selection of components for the incorrect ones can damage the rifle. What should I choose? What should I avoid? Why?

Answer: The warnings you have been given are good ones. Though it is a rugged, piece of equipment, the M1 Rifle has an “Achilles heel”; its long, slender operating rod. Operating rods can be bent to the point of uselessness if continually subjected to propellent gas pressures that are too high. Such too high pressures are usually the result of either too-heavy bullets or too-slow burning powder, or both. In military service, over the several decades that the M1 was either our primary or an important secondary arm, this potential fragility of the operating rod was not a problem. Ammunition for the rifle was developed and loaded that did not cause overly high pressure to be exerted against the operating rod, and so did not damage it. Handloaders, however, can choose combinations of components that will cause damage. For best results, use powders faster than IMR 4320, and bullets of 180 grains weight, or lighter. Suggested loading data for .30-’06 ammunition in M1 Rifles follows:

147/150-gr. bullets – either FMJ or HPBT
IMR 3031 48.0 grs.
IMR 4895 49.0 grs.
IMR 4064 50.0 grs.
Win 748 Ball 48.0 grs.
Acc AA2460 49.0 grs.
Acc AA2520 51.0 grs.
Acc 2495BR 50.5 grs.
Hod H-4895 49.0 grs.
Hod BL-C2 49.0 grs.
Hod H-335 49.0 grs.
Herc Re-12 48.0 grs.

165/168-gr. bullets – either SP, HP or FMJ
IMR 4895 47.0 grs.
IMR 4064 48.0 grs.
Acc AA2520 47.5 grs.
Acc 2495BR 47.0 grs.
Hod H-4895 47.5 grs.
Hod BL-C2 49.0 grs.
Hod H-335 47.0 grs.
Herc Re-12 44.5 grs.


173/175-gr. bullets – M72 or M118
IMR 4895 46.0 grs.
IMR 4064 47.0 grs.
Acc AA2460 46.0 grs.
Acc 2495BR 46.0 grs.
Hod H-4895 47.0 grs.
Hod BL-C2 48.0 grs.

180-gr. Bullets – either SP, HP or FMJ
IMR 4895 43.0 grs.
Acc AA2460 46.5 grs.
Acc 2495BR 45.5 grs.
Hod H-4895 44.0 grs.
Hod BL-C2 47.5 grs.
Herc Re-12 41.5 grs.

The charges listed are meant to approximate the performance of military ammunition using commercial reloading components, including cases. In no circumstances should any charge weight be increased. If military surplus cases are used, charges should be reduced by 1.5 grs. to start. Loads using tubular-grained powders such as IMR propellants do well if primed with conventional large rifle primers (Federal, CCI or Remington). Loads using powders such as BL-C2, AA2460 or AA2520 and Win. “Ball” are best primed with Winchester’s WLR primer or possibly a “magnum” primer from another component manufacture."