shoot or retreat

[MLeake]

Thanks for the excerpt, Brent.

younggunz4life, I think you and some others really need to re-check the concept of "brandishing."

Making a weapon ready when somebody else has already attacked people, or obviously prepared to attack people, is not "brandishing" in any jurisdiction of which I am aware. People on TFL throw "brandishing" around in all sorts of ways, that actually don't apply.

So, the guy has stabbed some people, and folks here think the owner was unreasonable in having gun in hand? Really?

Then, it also turns out the guy has a gun.

I wonder if the OP actually read the article about the incident before he posted....

[hogdogs]

MLeake is very correct and I cringe to hear the term "BRANDISHING" used inaccurately...
So without further ado I give you a fair definition of the word...

bran·dish (brndsh)
tr.v. bran·dished, bran·dish·ing, bran·dish·es
1. To wave or flourish (a weapon, for example) menacingly.
2. To display ostentatiously. See Synonyms at flourish.
n.
A menacing or defiant wave or flourish.

Brent

[Double Naught Spy]

The cops were called and the owner was forced to stop the threat of the gun firing crazed drunken fella before the cops arrived...

Sounds legal in just about every state to mea culpa.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/artic...0_MEDICI832088

The OSBI says Taylor first tried to stab employees when he was asked to leave Park Tavern. The employees called police and the owner — who arrived before police. The OSBI says witnesses told investigators that Taylor began shooting into the bar and the owner returned fire — killing Taylor.

http://www.ktul.com/story/14463075/l...type=printable

[youngunz4life]

Oklahoma Club owner was at home, gets a call that a man won't leave and is drunk and disorderly. Police were also called. Drunk guy left club and is across the street. Club owner shows up, gets out of his car with a gun, drunk guy comes from across the street shooting, Club owner kills drunk guy.

Should Club owner have come ready with gun in hand?

haven't read all the posts since mine but I did read mleakes to me so far:

my response was not to any actual story or other posts: my reply was to the original post quoted above. I was under the impression when I read it that man got out of his car with a gun...and thats when my wheels started turning to the possible "personality" that got out of the car with gun in hand(one example of many: loud, verbal communication as clubowner gets out of vehicle with gun). I know I mentioned in my hurried post when I was running late that there wasn't enough info for me & it would've been nice to observe that one from afar. anyways, maybe brandishing was incorrect wording, but brandishing comes in many forms. that being said, it does seem @ this point like the club owner was more of the hero type than thug type. all the best

[youngunz4life]

hogdogs: I do not feel I used the term brandishing inaccurately. It is possible you misinterpreted my post.

mleake: No, I didn't know of the stabbings and such either. My viewpoint was from a different angle, but its good the thread has been pulled more compactly together. all the best. GO BRUINS!

[MLeake]

younggunz4life, the drunk had already stabbed patrons; the club owner had been told the drunk was assaulting people with a deadly weapon. When he arrived, and the guy was still there, exiting his vehicle with weapon drawn was prudent, given the information the owner had at the time.

A prudent draw, when deadly force has already been employed, is NOT brandishing, so you did use the term inaccurately IMO.

"Brandishing" implies intent to create a disturbance or unlawfully threaten people. In this case, the drunk had employed deadly force, and was armed and aggressive. Display of a weapon in order to ward him off would not qualify as brandishing. Drawing the weapon, to be prepared against an attacker who has already displayed willingness to employ deadly force, is also not brandishing.

[youngunz4life]

mleake, I guess its my turn to go under your microscope? lol. no, all kidding aside- you have the right to your opinion. all I knew when I read the thread starter(or interpreted the thread starter) was that a man got out of his car with a gun in his hand(brandishing a gun) because a man was drunk and disorderly outside his business while cops were on the way. thats why I asked: "what's the point of the weapon being brandished?" in my 1st post.

of course, it is obvious there were other, more serious mitigating factors present during this incident(as you have pointed out)

[MLeake]

It's not a matter of "my" microscope; it's a matter of your using a term that has legal meaning and weight.

Brandishing is an unlawful display of a weapon.

Sometimes, words matter.

[hogdogs]

Neither is exiting your car to enter your business with a firearm in hand but carried discretely.


Brandishing is a term with very specific parameters to qualify for its use.

Brent

[youngunz4life]

OK, you were right // mleake said:

A prudent draw, when deadly force has already been employed, is NOT brandishing, so you did use the term inaccurately IMO.

I didn't know that all that other stuff had happened & that the clubowner knew this. For all I knew with the info I had been presented, the clubowner could have been about to confront a drunk college kid outside his business with his personal weapon. No, it wasn't unlawful. I had thought maybe it was possible upon my first read of the post. Again, maybe brandishing was the wrong word choice. Thanx for the exercise this evening; I actually enjoyed it!

I DIDN'T EVEN REALIZE IT WAS A REAL INCIDENT. I THOUGHT THE OP WAS JUST THROWING OUT A 'STAND YOUR GROUND' SCENARIO.

How does the "stand your ground" or "justifiable homicide" apply in the following senerio:

Oklahoma Club owner was at home, gets a call that a man won't leave and is drunk and disorderly. Police were also called. Drunk guy left club and is across the street. Club owner shows up, gets out of his car with a gun, drunk guy comes from across the street shooting, Club owner kills drunk guy.

Should Club owner have come ready with gun in hand?
If he was not part of the situation at hand should he not have waited for the police?
If you put yourself in harms way how are you standing your ground?

FOR ALL I KNEW SOME DUDE WAS KICKED OUT OF AN ESTABLISHMENT FOR BEING TOO DRUNK. WHEN THE OWNER SHOWED UP WITH A GUN FOR WHATEVER REASON, SAID INDIVIDUAL DECIDED TO COME BACK ACROSS THE STREET.

good to know I can explain things to you // again, obviously there were more serious factors going on that I didn't realize originally in this real life, true event.
ALL THE BEST, GUNZ