Mossberg 464 lever-action?

Vergeltung · December 1, 2008, 02:07 PM

anyone out there have one of these by chance? one is on the cover of the Mossberg 2008 Gun Annual mag, and it is really putting the hook in me. I can see all the episodes of the Rifleman running through my head.

seriously though, I'd appreciate any thoughts about this weapon. Thanks in advance! I already (recently) purchased a home defense and range shotgun, and this intrigues me as a nice rifle. love the nostalgia attached to the idea.

j.chappell · December 1, 2008, 02:11 PM

My local shop has gotten in a few and they look terrible. Fit, finish, and overall qualitiy seem poor.

J.

Vergeltung · December 1, 2008, 02:14 PM

oh! that's not good news. thanks for the quick reply.

ChicagoTex · December 1, 2008, 02:28 PM

Quote:

Fit, finish, and overall qualitiy seem poor.

Unfortunately that seems to be the consensus anytime Mossberg deviates from their Shotgun stock-and-trade.

Vergeltung · December 1, 2008, 04:25 PM

ah, that's too bad. oh well....

dgludwig · December 1, 2008, 05:12 PM

I had the occasion to inspect two of them recently and found the fit, finish and general workmanship to be at least as good as any Marlin. Don't own one, don't care to, just thought I'd report my observations. Maybe the ones I examined were flukes or maybe the ones j.chappell looked at were flukes or maybe Mossberg's production of these rifles is fraught with inconsistencies-don't know, but the rifles I looked at were nice specimens.

h2oskikrazy · December 1, 2008, 05:14 PM

I was lucky enough to stumble on a used one at about $100 off the new price. So, I picked it up. It didn't look like it had been shot. There were no scratches on the loader until I loaded and shot it. The fit and finish issues mentioned are noticeable compared to a higher priced gun. But, they don't bother me. This gun was made to carry and shoot. Not, necessarily to look great. It cycles and shoots well. I mounted a 3-9 Scope on it so I could see where I was hitting the target at the 100 yard range that I shoot at.

SPUSCG · December 1, 2008, 05:19 PM

heard of them shipping with parts missing, that they fte, all kinds of problems. a 336 is like 325 with a scope buy that

jmr40 · December 1, 2008, 05:25 PM

The ones I have handled did not impress me at all. As long as I can get a real Marlin or Winchester off the used racks (for less money I might add) that is the route I will be taking.

j.chappell · December 1, 2008, 10:09 PM

dgludwig,

Wow, maybe I looked at some bad ones but I think you may have just seen a few good ones.

The wood on the ones that I looked at was horrible, lightly colored, metal to wood fit was terrible with gaps and uneven, and the metal finishing was less than desirable.

I compared the Mossberg to the Henry (I do not like either). I am not a Henry fan but in comparing the 2 the Mossberg would be the Pinto and the Henry the Cadillac.

I just dont think you are going to see any consistency in the Mossberg rifles.

J.

SPUSCG · December 1, 2008, 10:12 PM

yeah i dont really like any mossberg products, the 702 is okay but so much more on the market

Vergeltung · December 2, 2008, 09:07 AM

well, I guess I will have to get out and do some personal inspection.

the Mossberg 590 SP (# 50665) shotgun I purchased last month is a fine armament. I am more than completely satisfied with it, so, I don't think I will be dismissing the company's products out of hand in any context.

Sometimes, alot of the discussion here reminds me of a Ford vs. Chevy truck debate. However, I do certainly appreciate the feedback, and will do some "field work" in the next few weeks.

thanks everyone.

hogdogs · December 2, 2008, 09:18 AM

Verg, I am a rabid Mossberg shotgun man and think everything else is either a lesser beast or a foo-foo poddle rendition of a pitbull...

I know this will get a chuckle from many and some may actually spit their coffee on the monitor but that is me.
I will not own anything they import including their rimfire and O/U shotguns as well as the SA line of auto loaders. I am leaning towards a Mossberg bolt action so long as it will shoot minute of bowling pin. But In these times I am confused why they would try to get into the lever market... If they are well built and accurate they are still a "winchester knockoff" I have not even handled one but intend to maybe even today...
I love the family run concept of mossberg and their CS is excellent for me.
Brent

Vergeltung · December 2, 2008, 11:30 AM

yeah, same here re Mossberg. Frankly, if Winchester was still making firearms I'd buy one from them. I was sad to hear they went out of business (except for ammo production, I guess).

good question as to why they went into the lever-action segment at this time. it does hit a twinge of nostalgia for me, especially as regards my love of that 1950s-60s TV Western, The Rifleman.

j.chappell · December 2, 2008, 12:30 PM

Thats the best thing to do is to get out and look at them firsthand.

J.

Don H · December 2, 2008, 12:58 PM

Quote:

Frankly, if Winchester was still making firearms I'd buy one from them.

Arguably, "Winchester" hasn't made a firearm since December 1980 when Olin sold the Winchester Repeating Arms Company to the U.S. Repeating Arms Company and USRA made Winchester guns under license from Olin (Winchester went bankrupt in the early '30s and was bought by Olin (Western Cartridge)). USRA went belly-up in early 2006 and later in the year Olin licensed FN Herstal to manufacture "Winchester" brand rifles and shotguns. Olin continues to manufacture Winchester-brand ammunition.

One could debate whether a "Winchester" manufactured under license is a "real" Winchester, especially when the manufacturer is a foreign company. Is a Winchester manufactured by Miroku in Japan really a Winchester?

Vergeltung · December 2, 2008, 01:00 PM

Quote:

One could debate whether a "Winchester" manufactured under license is a "real" Winchester, especially when the manufacturer is a foreign company. Is a Winchester manufactured by Miroku in Japan really a Winchester?

gak! :barf: Chuck Connors would roll over in his grave!! I could never soil his memory in such a manner.

dgludwig · December 2, 2008, 03:22 PM

Quote:

yeah, same here re Mossberg. Frankly, if Winchester was still making firearms I'd buy one from them. I was sad to hear they went out of business (except for ammo production, I guess).

good question as to why they went into the lever-action segment at this time.

I think maybe you answered your own question.

hogdogs · December 2, 2008, 04:14 PM

Well my local gun shop hasn't got any, hasn't had any and his reason was "They would have to really be a sharp rifle to steal any of my Marlin customers from the Marlin offerings..." He agreed he has heard both good and bad on them though.
Brent

ursavus.elemensis · December 2, 2008, 08:30 PM

During WW1, Winchester expanded significantly to make rifles for the British and the American armies. They borrowed heavily to expand. The Winchester Repeating Arms Co. went bankrupt in 1931 and has not made a rifle since then. The company was sold by the bankruptcy court to Olin in 1931, which combined Winchester with Western Cartridge. Rifles made after the sale were made by Olin's company, using the name "Winchester Repeating Arms" but it was not the genuine, original Winchester company (originally called Volcanic Repeating Arms Co., later called New Haven Repeating Arms Co. -- Oliver Winchester was the major stockholder and later re-named the company Winchester Repeating Arms Co.) Quoting from the Internet, "Labor costs continued to rise, and a prolonged and bitter strike in 1979-80 convinced Olin that firearms could no longer be produced profitably in New Haven. Therefore in December 1980 the plant was sold to its employees, incorporated as the U.S. Repeating Arms Company, together with a licence to make Winchester arms. Olin retained the Winchester ammunition business." Quoting further: "From 1981 until 2006, Winchester guns were made by the U.S. Repeating Arms Company. When U.S. Repeating Arms went bankrupt it was acquired by a French holding company, then sold to an arms making cartel sponsored by the Belgian province of Herstal, which also owns famous gun makers Fabrique National (FN) and Browning. ... On August 15, 2006, Olin Corporation, owner of the Winchester trademarks, announced that it had entered into a new license agreement with Browning to make Winchester brand rifles and shotguns, though not at the closed Winchester plant in New Haven. Browning, based in Morgan, Utah, and the former licensee, U.S. Repeating Arms Company, are both subsidiaries of FN Herstal. In 2008 FN Herstal announced that it would produce Model 70 rifles at its plant in Columbia, SC." Since 1931, the rifles have ALL been made by other companies that simply owned or leased the winchester trademark, but none of them were the original Winchester company.

goredsox · March 1, 2009, 11:16 PM

I picked up one of these before the hunting seasons this past fall. I hear the complaints about the fit&finish, but I think fit is solid and finish is commensurate with the price.

As for performance:

I bought it too late to mount a decent sling so I ended up carrying it slingless around the mountains of Vermont for a weeklong moose hunt. The weight was outstanding compared with any bolt-action I'd have carried instead.

I did not mount a scope...but I was very impressed with the consistent iron-sights accuracy I got at the range with Hornady LEVERevolution. And so much fun, that I actually went through a box of this ammo just at the range (also an endorsement of the ammo).

Our moose was taken with my loaned out ruger 30-06, but I did later take two deer with the mossberg and same ammo (hornady) as above.

I spent nearly 3 weeks afield with only this firearm this year and in the end, here's what I'll say...it was my first time hunting with a lever-action and first time hunting just via iron sights. My deer kills were proof to me that I definitely don't need a scope here in the mountains/brush of vermont. The gun was light and short enough that all shots felt reflexive and solid. I now don't see myself deer or eastern black bear hunting in my home of vermont with anything but a lever/iron sight combo. I'll probably pick up a 444marlin or 45-70 for the next moose hunt. As for whether I regret not spending the extra do for a Marlin or Winchester? Not a bit.

dgludwig · March 2, 2009, 04:20 PM

Good report, goredsox. Hard to beat a handy little carbine with irons in the woods- no matter who makes it.

L_Killkenny · March 2, 2009, 06:24 PM

First off......Chuck Conners played an arrogant A$$. Couldn't stand that man. Can't think of another TV western lead man that wouldn't take that rifle away and stick it where the sun don't shine! Enough of that.....

I think Mossberg got into the lever gun market due to the gapping hole left by demise of the Winchester brand name. Let's face it, Marlin guns tend to run a little heavier and are more "full sized". They have only made limited runs of 30/30's that have a straight stock. I personally like the looks and feel of the Winchester 94's. Many do.

That being said, there is no way I'm gonna pay more for a Mossbeerg knock-off than I would for a Marlin 336. Just ain't gonna happen. If I'm gonna spend the price of a 464 (because I wanted the look and feel), I'd fork out the couple extra dollars for a Marlin 94 in .357. Last I checked the Marlin 94's run less than $50 more than a new Mossberg.

Mossberg has priced them out of the market. They should sell em cheap for now and build a following like they did with their shotguns. No way can the compete with Marlin right off the bat.

ursavus.elemensis · March 2, 2009, 09:31 PM

Mossberg has made lever rifles in the past, too. They make them for a while, sell what they can. then drop it from the line. Then they bring them back another decade or two later. No doubt they thought this was a good time to bring out a rifle that resembles a Winchester 94. They'll sell however many of these they can. and then drop the rifle from their line up. I think these rifles are selling well for now.

goredsox · March 2, 2009, 10:23 PM

Unlike the times of our fathers and grandfathers, we're actually looking at a much weaker and less dynamic industry. R&D budgets have been slashed, the barriers to entry for new manufacturers are high (nearly impossible to start a new venture and be able to pay the salaries of a half dozen attorneys on day 1 of operation), and consumer demand has weakend with the decline in participation in shooting sports.

I think the remaining U.S. firearms manufacturers are simply trying to diversify their product set with "tried and true" options as means of long-term survival. Even the healthiest of them (financially) are at risk with the volatile fluctuations that occur with every new piece of legislation and our legal system.

Mossberg is smart to branch out beyond shotguns (as are S&W and Ruger with their recent product line expansions). The balancing act is how to do it without hurting your reputation, as overextending yourself will show in product quality and lower customer satisfaction. While also paying very close attention to ROI.

Thus, whether from Mossberg or anyone else...the most logical place to launch the product lines that will keep their companies afloat is in the broadest possible segments at the lowest possible price-point. Did Remington launch a new&improved 700? No, they've launched 710, 770, 700 SPS. Ruger trims it's stock and changes out the trigger assembly and it's a big party and new product line. Even this 464 wouldn't have grabbed my attention were it not for the added value of the new Hornady LEVERevolution ammo.

Ultimately, look at it this way...the 464 gives us something slightly more interesting to debate on these boards other than all of the other sameness about "latest and greatest plastic-stocked, tack drivers initially offered only in 270 and 30-06, blah blah (yeah, I know Mossberg did it too)" :-)

December 1, 2008, 02:07 PM	#1
Vergeltung Senior Member Join Date: November 12, 2008 Location: near NYC, USA Posts: 292	Mossberg 464 lever-action? anyone out there have one of these by chance? one is on the cover of the Mossberg 2008 Gun Annual mag, and it is really putting the hook in me. I can see all the episodes of the Rifleman running through my head. seriously though, I'd appreciate any thoughts about this weapon. Thanks in advance! I already (recently) purchased a home defense and range shotgun, and this intrigues me as a nice rifle. love the nostalgia attached to the idea. __________________ *Tuitio Fidei et Obsequium Pauperum*

December 1, 2008, 02:14 PM	#3
Vergeltung Senior Member Join Date: November 12, 2008 Location: near NYC, USA Posts: 292	oh! that's not good news. thanks for the quick reply. __________________ *Tuitio Fidei et Obsequium Pauperum*

December 1, 2008, 04:25 PM	#5
Vergeltung Senior Member Join Date: November 12, 2008 Location: near NYC, USA Posts: 292	ah, that's too bad. oh well.... __________________ *Tuitio Fidei et Obsequium Pauperum*

December 1, 2008, 05:12 PM	#6
dgludwig Senior Member Join Date: February 12, 2005 Location: North central Ohio Posts: 7,486	I had the occasion to inspect two of them recently and found the fit, finish and general workmanship to be at least as good as any Marlin. Don't own one, don't care to, just thought I'd report my observations. Maybe the ones I examined were flukes or maybe the ones j.chappell looked at were flukes or maybe Mossberg's production of these rifles is fraught with inconsistencies-don't know, but the rifles I looked at were nice specimens. __________________ ONLY AN ARMED PEOPLE CAN BE TRULY FREE ; ONLY AN UNARMED PEOPLE CAN EVER BE ENSLAVED ...Aristotle NRA Benefactor Life Member

December 1, 2008, 05:19 PM	#8
SPUSCG Senior Member Join Date: January 25, 2008 Posts: 3,004	heard of them shipping with parts missing, that they fte, all kinds of problems. a 336 is like 325 with a scope buy that __________________ Check us out: www.imfdb.org. Fun site for people who love gun movies.

December 1, 2008, 02:11 PM	#2
j.chappell Senior Member Join Date: October 14, 2008 Posts: 1,125	My local shop has gotten in a few and they look terrible. Fit, finish, and overall qualitiy seem poor. J.

December 1, 2008, 05:14 PM	#7
h2oskikrazy Member Join Date: September 25, 2008 Posts: 39	I was lucky enough to stumble on a used one at about $100 off the new price. So, I picked it up. It didn't look like it had been shot. There were no scratches on the loader until I loaded and shot it. The fit and finish issues mentioned are noticeable compared to a higher priced gun. But, they don't bother me. This gun was made to carry and shoot. Not, necessarily to look great. It cycles and shoots well. I mounted a 3-9 Scope on it so I could see where I was hitting the target at the 100 yard range that I shoot at.

December 1, 2008, 05:25 PM	#9
jmr40 Senior Member Join Date: June 15, 2008 Location: Georgia Posts: 10,808	The ones I have handled did not impress me at all. As long as I can get a real Marlin or Winchester off the used racks (for less money I might add) that is the route I will be taking.

December 1, 2008, 10:09 PM	#10
j.chappell Senior Member Join Date: October 14, 2008 Posts: 1,125	dgludwig, Wow, maybe I looked at some bad ones but I think you may have just seen a few good ones. The wood on the ones that I looked at was horrible, lightly colored, metal to wood fit was terrible with gaps and uneven, and the metal finishing was less than desirable. I compared the Mossberg to the Henry (I do not like either). I am not a Henry fan but in comparing the 2 the Mossberg would be the Pinto and the Henry the Cadillac. I just dont think you are going to see any consistency in the Mossberg rifles. J.

December 1, 2008, 10:12 PM	#11
SPUSCG Senior Member Join Date: January 25, 2008 Posts: 3,004	yeah i dont really like any mossberg products, the 702 is okay but so much more on the market __________________ Check us out: www.imfdb.org. Fun site for people who love gun movies.

December 2, 2008, 09:07 AM	#12
Vergeltung Senior Member Join Date: November 12, 2008 Location: near NYC, USA Posts: 292	well, I guess I will have to get out and do some personal inspection. the Mossberg 590 SP (# 50665) shotgun I purchased last month is a fine armament. I am more than completely satisfied with it, so, I don't think I will be dismissing the company's products out of hand in any context. Sometimes, alot of the discussion here reminds me of a Ford vs. Chevy truck debate. However, I do certainly appreciate the feedback, and will do some "field work" in the next few weeks. thanks everyone. __________________ *Tuitio Fidei et Obsequium Pauperum* Last edited by Vergeltung; December 2, 2008 at 09:08 AM. Reason: clarification

December 2, 2008, 09:18 AM	#13
hogdogs Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 31, 2007 Location: Western Florida panhandle Posts: 11,069	Verg, I am a rabid Mossberg shotgun man and think everything else is either a lesser beast or a foo-foo poddle rendition of a pitbull... I know this will get a chuckle from many and some may actually spit their coffee on the monitor but that is me. I will not own anything they import including their rimfire and O/U shotguns as well as the SA line of auto loaders. I am leaning towards a Mossberg bolt action so long as it will shoot minute of bowling pin. But In these times I am confused why they would try to get into the lever market... If they are well built and accurate they are still a "winchester knockoff" I have not even handled one but intend to maybe even today... I love the family run concept of mossberg and their CS is excellent for me. Brent

December 2, 2008, 11:30 AM	#14
Vergeltung Senior Member Join Date: November 12, 2008 Location: near NYC, USA Posts: 292	yeah, same here re Mossberg. Frankly, if Winchester was still making firearms I'd buy one from them. I was sad to hear they went out of business (except for ammo production, I guess). good question as to why they went into the lever-action segment at this time. it does hit a twinge of nostalgia for me, especially as regards my love of that 1950s-60s TV Western, The Rifleman. __________________ *Tuitio Fidei et Obsequium Pauperum*

December 2, 2008, 12:30 PM	#15
j.chappell Senior Member Join Date: October 14, 2008 Posts: 1,125	Thats the best thing to do is to get out and look at them firsthand. J.

December 2, 2008, 04:14 PM	#19
hogdogs Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 31, 2007 Location: Western Florida panhandle Posts: 11,069	Well my local gun shop hasn't got any, hasn't had any and his reason was "They would have to really be a sharp rifle to steal any of my Marlin customers from the Marlin offerings..." He agreed he has heard both good and bad on them though. Brent

December 2, 2008, 08:30 PM	#20
ursavus.elemensis Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2007 Location: southcentral/southeastern PA Posts: 375	During WW1, Winchester expanded significantly to make rifles for the British and the American armies. They borrowed heavily to expand. The Winchester Repeating Arms Co. went bankrupt in 1931 and has not made a rifle since then. The company was sold by the bankruptcy court to Olin in 1931, which combined Winchester with Western Cartridge. Rifles made after the sale were made by Olin's company, using the name "Winchester Repeating Arms" but it was not the genuine, original Winchester company (originally called Volcanic Repeating Arms Co., later called New Haven Repeating Arms Co. -- Oliver Winchester was the major stockholder and later re-named the company Winchester Repeating Arms Co.) Quoting from the Internet, "Labor costs continued to rise, and a prolonged and bitter strike in 1979-80 convinced Olin that firearms could no longer be produced profitably in New Haven. Therefore in December 1980 the plant was sold to its employees, incorporated as the U.S. Repeating Arms Company, together with a licence to make Winchester arms. Olin retained the Winchester ammunition business." Quoting further: "From 1981 until 2006, Winchester guns were made by the U.S. Repeating Arms Company. When U.S. Repeating Arms went bankrupt it was acquired by a French holding company, then sold to an arms making cartel sponsored by the Belgian province of Herstal, which also owns famous gun makers Fabrique National (FN) and Browning. ... On August 15, 2006, Olin Corporation, owner of the Winchester trademarks, announced that it had entered into a new license agreement with Browning to make Winchester brand rifles and shotguns, though not at the closed Winchester plant in New Haven. Browning, based in Morgan, Utah, and the former licensee, U.S. Repeating Arms Company, are both subsidiaries of FN Herstal. In 2008 FN Herstal announced that it would produce Model 70 rifles at its plant in Columbia, SC." Since 1931, the rifles have ALL been made by other companies that simply owned or leased the winchester trademark, but none of them were the original Winchester company. __________________ "A Prince, whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people." -The Declaration of Independence

March 1, 2009, 11:16 PM	#21
goredsox Member Join Date: March 1, 2009 Posts: 24	I picked up one of these before the hunting seasons this past fall. I hear the complaints about the fit&finish, but I think fit is solid and finish is commensurate with the price. As for performance: I bought it too late to mount a decent sling so I ended up carrying it slingless around the mountains of Vermont for a weeklong moose hunt. The weight was outstanding compared with any bolt-action I'd have carried instead. I did not mount a scope...but I was very impressed with the consistent iron-sights accuracy I got at the range with Hornady LEVERevolution. And so much fun, that I actually went through a box of this ammo just at the range (also an endorsement of the ammo). Our moose was taken with my loaned out ruger 30-06, but I did later take two deer with the mossberg and same ammo (hornady) as above. I spent nearly 3 weeks afield with only this firearm this year and in the end, here's what I'll say...it was my first time hunting with a lever-action and first time hunting just via iron sights. My deer kills were proof to me that I definitely don't need a scope here in the mountains/brush of vermont. The gun was light and short enough that all shots felt reflexive and solid. I now don't see myself deer or eastern black bear hunting in my home of vermont with anything but a lever/iron sight combo. I'll probably pick up a 444marlin or 45-70 for the next moose hunt. As for whether I regret not spending the extra do for a Marlin or Winchester? Not a bit.

March 2, 2009, 04:20 PM	#22
dgludwig Senior Member Join Date: February 12, 2005 Location: North central Ohio Posts: 7,486	Good report, goredsox. Hard to beat a handy little carbine with irons in the woods- no matter who makes it. __________________ ONLY AN ARMED PEOPLE CAN BE TRULY FREE ; ONLY AN UNARMED PEOPLE CAN EVER BE ENSLAVED ...Aristotle NRA Benefactor Life Member

March 2, 2009, 06:24 PM	#23
L_Killkenny Senior Member Join Date: February 2, 2007 Location: Iowa Posts: 2,676	First off......Chuck Conners played an arrogant A$$. Couldn't stand that man. Can't think of another TV western lead man that wouldn't take that rifle away and stick it where the sun don't shine! Enough of that..... I think Mossberg got into the lever gun market due to the gapping hole left by demise of the Winchester brand name. Let's face it, Marlin guns tend to run a little heavier and are more "full sized". They have only made limited runs of 30/30's that have a straight stock. I personally like the looks and feel of the Winchester 94's. Many do. That being said, there is no way I'm gonna pay more for a Mossbeerg knock-off than I would for a Marlin 336. Just ain't gonna happen. If I'm gonna spend the price of a 464 (because I wanted the look and feel), I'd fork out the couple extra dollars for a Marlin 94 in .357. Last I checked the Marlin 94's run less than $50 more than a new Mossberg. Mossberg has priced them out of the market. They should sell em cheap for now and build a following like they did with their shotguns. No way can the compete with Marlin right off the bat.

March 2, 2009, 09:31 PM	#24
ursavus.elemensis Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2007 Location: southcentral/southeastern PA Posts: 375	Mossberg has made lever rifles in the past, too. They make them for a while, sell what they can. then drop it from the line. Then they bring them back another decade or two later. No doubt they thought this was a good time to bring out a rifle that resembles a Winchester 94. They'll sell however many of these they can. and then drop the rifle from their line up. I think these rifles are selling well for now. __________________ "A Prince, whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people." -The Declaration of Independence

March 2, 2009, 10:23 PM	#25
goredsox Member Join Date: March 1, 2009 Posts: 24	Unlike the times of our fathers and grandfathers, we're actually looking at a much weaker and less dynamic industry. R&D budgets have been slashed, the barriers to entry for new manufacturers are high (nearly impossible to start a new venture and be able to pay the salaries of a half dozen attorneys on day 1 of operation), and consumer demand has weakend with the decline in participation in shooting sports. I think the remaining U.S. firearms manufacturers are simply trying to diversify their product set with "tried and true" options as means of long-term survival. Even the healthiest of them (financially) are at risk with the volatile fluctuations that occur with every new piece of legislation and our legal system. Mossberg is smart to branch out beyond shotguns (as are S&W and Ruger with their recent product line expansions). The balancing act is how to do it without hurting your reputation, as overextending yourself will show in product quality and lower customer satisfaction. While also paying very close attention to ROI. Thus, whether from Mossberg or anyone else...the most logical place to launch the product lines that will keep their companies afloat is in the broadest possible segments at the lowest possible price-point. Did Remington launch a new&improved 700? No, they've launched 710, 770, 700 SPS. Ruger trims it's stock and changes out the trigger assembly and it's a big party and new product line. Even this 464 wouldn't have grabbed my attention were it not for the added value of the new Hornady LEVERevolution ammo. Ultimately, look at it this way...the 464 gives us something slightly more interesting to debate on these boards other than all of the other sameness about "latest and greatest plastic-stocked, tack drivers initially offered only in 270 and 30-06, blah blah (yeah, I know Mossberg did it too)" :-)