is it unlawful?

[Justme]

Texas or not I think a moral ethical person should retreat rather than use lethal force as long as they can do so in complete safety. In fact I think that when castle doctrine laws are passed it is partly due to the fact that most people can not imagine someone using lethal force if they could retreat in complete safety.

I would go so far as to say that anyone who does not agree that they should retreat rather than use lethal force when they can do so safetly is not mature and/or moral enough to own firearms. Over and over on this section of this forum I read guys defending their right to kill someone over property or some perceived right to "hold their ground". If the lawmakers and general population ever get the impression that these people represent even a substantial MINORITY of CCW holders states will start reversing their positions on CCW.

[DougO83]

Texas or not I think a moral ethical person should retreat rather than use lethal force as long as they can do so in complete safety.

Not at all the point of what I was saying. Did you read the comment my post was in reference to? His instructor made an ignorant statement that is total BS.

In fact I think that when castle doctrine laws are passed it is partly due to the fact that most people can not imagine someone using lethal force if they could retreat in complete safety.

As far as killing over property, that is not the intent behind Castle Doctrine laws. The point is,if someone is in my house without my permsission, they are not there to do any good to me. They are there to do harm and that will be the position I assume until they can prove otherwise. If you do not leave my home after being warned, you are then a deadly threat and will be dealt with as such.

I would go so far as to say that anyone who does not agree that they should retreat rather than use lethal force when they can do so safetly is not mature and/or moral enough to own firearms.

What gives you the right to judge another's morals? While I will not say that I am qualified to know when I can kill someone, I certainly know when I would and you certainly have no place to determine the morality of such an action. As far as the maturity of it, numerous background checks and interviews for my current employer allow me to carry firearms for work. Think I can handle it.

Over and over on this section of this forum I read guys defending their right to kill someone over property or some perceived right to "hold their ground".

"Percieved right to hold their ground"? Seriously? You mean I have no right to stand firm and must cower and cave in to the criminal elements of this world? Wow.

If the lawmakers and general population ever get the impression that these people represent even a substantial MINORITY of CCW holders states will start reversing their positions on CCW.

If lawmakers actually had any sense, half of our gun laws would be nixed. When will people learn that making more laws to restrict weapons posession doesn't affect criminals? It only affects law-abiding citizens.

[Justme]

You mean I have no right to stand firm and must cower and cave in to the criminal elements of this world?

If that is the way you want to word it fine, yes, if you can retreat in complete safety then you have a moral and ethical responsibility to do so rather than use lethal force. If you believe that retreating is morally and ethically worse than using lethal force then yes, I judge your moral and ethical position to be lacking and immature. I am not alone in this belief. In fact, read Mas Ayoob's article in this months "concealed carry guns" (apologies if I got the name of the magazine wrong I don't have it here with me) he is more tactful than I and certainly expresses himself better, but he puts forth essentially the same argument.

Now, for a final plea before I get banned, , I am not and did not question Doug's moral makeup, but simply stated my view of the moral and ethical weakness of his proposed action in a given situation.

[DougO83]

If that is the way you want to word it fine, yes, if you can retreat in complete safety then you have a moral and ethical responsibility to do so rather than use lethal force

is that it allows the criminal scum of our world even more chance to run amok and continue harrassing people. Not many criminals go out, break the law just one time and stop. Our criminal justice system is set up in such a way that the good guy is almost always screwed over and the criminal gets another free break. When do we, as law-abiding citizens, say "enough is enough"?

[David Armstrong]

Disparancy of force. If the attacker is lots stronger than you, AND you cannot safely retreat, then you can treat the attack as a deadly one.

While deaf is mostly right, I think he leaves out an important segment of the law, which is that disparity of force is not sufficent in and of itself. There still has to be the reasonable fear of death or major injury sort of consideration or some other factor in conjunctio with the disparity issue.

[Wildalaska]

You mean I have no right to stand firm and must cower and cave in to the criminal elements of this world?

In some situations, yes.

WildthatsthelawAlaska ™

[DougO83]

Quote:
You mean I have no right to stand firm and must cower and cave in to the criminal elements of this world?

In some situations, yes.

WildthatsthelawAlaska ™

That is just ridiculous. When is somebody going to stand up for those doing right? I may not shoot to protect my wallet, but I'm getting some licks in I hope. I want the person to remember the personthey tried to take advantage of.

DougOshouldbethepresidentsoguncontrolwoulddisappear83

[David Armstrong]

What gives you the right to judge another's morals?

Society in general defines moral behavior based on the judgement of another's actions.

As far as the maturity of it, numerous background checks and interviews for my current employer allow me to carry firearms for work.

That is sort of strange reasoning. very few background checks and interviews are designed to determine maturity levels, particularly maturity as it relates to carrying firearms. A quick look at lots of LE and armed security shows that quite obviously.

You mean I have no right to stand firm and must cower and cave in to the criminal elements of this world?

Just out of curiousity, are you unable to realize that there are many alternatives available between those two poles?

[David Armstrong]

When is somebody going to stand up for those doing right?

Part of the problem comes from those who argue they are doing right and refuse to acknowledge the legitimacy of positions other than their own.

I want the person to remember the personthey tried to take advantage of.

In other words, it seems, you feel that you should get to decide what the laws should be and should get to be judge, jury and executioner regarding those laws. That is not doing right, and stuff like that is why we have some of the laws that have been passed.

[Erik]

"In some situations, yes" is not rediculous. It is close to the absolutes advocated by some, but arguably significantly more prudent.

Some of the advise put out in this thread is dangerous and outside the scope of any legal justification arguments I've come across before.

I hope the various readers, who may or may not be able to spot it, checks their locally appolicable laws for clarification.

[DougO83]

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[DougO83]

deleted

[Sigma 40 Blaster]

This is getting a little crazy, anyone who wants to shoot someone has no business with a gun. I DO NOT THINK anyone here falls into that category.

I like reading Wild Alaska's posts on almost everything (loved the one about doing a few tactical rolls in Walmart screaming something goofy if something looked "hinky" to him) and while I don't agree with everything he says I have to agree with him here. Backing down from an incident, or even outright running has to be an option for evaluating your actions in any given situation...if you're programmed to shoot upon any threat there's going to be trouble for you probably moreso than whomever you're shooting at.

If someone attempts to fight you hand to hand you cannot shoot them. Period. The fact that you're carrying a gun does not mean that you get to shoot them because you're afraid it will get taken from you.

I think in my last post I said that my instructor gave me one good piece of advice, if someone's doing or about to do something to you, your family, or an innocent that would get them the death sentence or life in prison using deadly force is an option. If the death sentence is not a punishment fit for the crime then you have no right to give them that sentence your self. That's my way of thinking as far as CCW incidents go...home defense is a little different because as someone stated if someone's in my home they are not there to do me any good.

I personally think people who are prone to attacks of fear, anxiety, or ego shouldn't carry...I have no problem handing over my car keys or wallet to a mugger if it will allow my family and I to escape. If I get a vibe that he's gonna shoot no matter what I will take my chances...I can relate to the BG on a lot of levels and usually my street guts are right. Honestly the guys who have no street sense are the ones that are going to get into trouble.

Also, at the end of the day I'd rather be judged by twelve than carried by six...I know when I CAN and WILL use deadly force and am willing and ready to accept the consequences no matter what happens.

[MyXD40]

Who here has a problem with backing down? I don't. But at the same time, I want to kill the guy first, before he kills me..thats where your street smarts come into play..do you think he'll kill you?

Some situations, like mine, I couldn't back down. So I used two options avaiable, my gun, or my dog. Let crazy woman decide. We'll never know where we'll get mugged, or when we'll get robbed in the middle of the night. Perhaps even you're at work late one night, come home to a guy who's is raping your wife. Anything can happen, anytime, anywhere. And a good rule of thumb is, USE WHAT YOU HAVE AROUND YOU. Throw sand in their eyes, beat them with a tree branch. Hell, if you need to, kick the guy in the balls! But if last resort is to shoot someone, so be it.

We're all adults here, right? We all know right from wrong. But what makes us different, is how each of us view the laws. Some people on this forum base their life off the law. Straight out of the books. Others, base their life off common sense, if I was in the jury stands, what would I think?

And like the last poster, I don't think anyone here wants to kill, or even shoot anyone. Otheres show it more so, that if they had to shoot someone, without a doubt, I wouldn't blink. It upsets me that so many of you judge the others. There's no right from wrong in these kinds of situations (unless you're shooting a 12yr old with a pocket knife, yeah, you're screwed).

WHY CAN'T WE JUST ALL BE FRIENDS!!!

ok sorry I'll shut up now

[spacemanspiff]

But at the same time, I want to kill the guy first, before he kills me..

Mindset. Premeditation.

I don't want to do harm to no one. If someone threatens me or my loved ones with deadly force, I will do whatever I can to STOP THE THREAT.

[Deaf Smith]

If you want the Texas laws on use of deadly force go to this and click the current as of Sept. 1, 2007 link (it's in PDF and you can save it on your PC.)

http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/adminis...elatedlaws.htm

Notice several things:

1) Reteat laws (or lack of them)

2) Carrying such as handguns, illegal knives (including Hattaro Hanzos), and clubs in your car.

3) and what remidies are available to someone who is injured or killed while defending yourself.

[Justme]

If the death sentence is not a punishment fit for the crime then you have no right to give them that sentence your self

Very good advice.

[TRiCoN45]

Holy cow Sigma40 are you really 6-5 330lbs?! You're more than twice my weight.....I dunno who those weird people were that asked you for rides.....but being a stranger I sure as hell would never ask you for one......

That's another thing I've come to accept from this thread, to call the cops in most cases even if I only had to draw and not fire. Not to sound cliche and not trying to give the impression I was raised in the roughest hood, but where and how I grew up, you rarly call the cops unless you had to, and if someone isn't extremly hurt due to someone else, dead, or you are confident someone is about to be dead then you just don't need the cops. To give something to compair against, where I lived before you would hear gun shots at least every other week if not once a week, and this is seriously not an exaggeration. Break-ins of homes were common and frequent, as vehicle theft were as well and getting jumped was tend to be expected when there is a group loitering. The house I lived in in this area was actualy broken in about 5 times, needless to say what we had was to some value to us and we lost nearly everything about 5 times. Hell, they even stole the pork chops we had in the freezer. Ehh, I can go on and on. Called the cops everytime we were robbed, never saw or heard anyone caught for it. One time we got robbed they either took everything or broke everything but a statue of the Virgin Mary, I was pissed, shocked, and scared all at the same time but when I saw that statue that before sat on the mantle sitting in the middle of the room on the floor upright and unbroken all of those feelings subsided.....except for being worried how and what we were going to do for tomorrow.....yeah....we were pretty poor....still to this day I don't know how my parents were able to handle all of that and still raise seven children to be decent people.....note that I said "decent" there's a coupld bad apples, but none are in jail and/or wanted by the law.

Here's another story. When I was about 12yrs old some dill weed pulled a shootie on me from across the street. I figured if he was determained to shoot it wouldn't matter much if I ran, so I stood there eyeballin him. After a few moments...about 5 secs of sighting me he turned around and went back inside his house. Didn't think or see much of it being that no one got hurt so I didn't call the cops. I actualy didn't tell anyone about it till about a year later. Kinda retarded now that I think about it, but it was kind of the code of the streets and the cops where the last people you would want to call.

Maybe those stories would assist in explaining the "handle your own" mentality.

And yes Sigma40Blaster I agree, anyone who simply just wants to shoot someone is friggin crazy.....but if you're crazy you're not suppose to be conceal carrying anyways(that was one of the questions on the CCP application) And for retreating in some situations if possible is available as an option to you then yes, of coarse take that option instead of poppin anyones head off just because they talked to you mean. Having that said, I do not plan or running away everytime someone comes at me wrong. I do believe you've got to stand strong and solid in some situations but others stand down, besides, that's one of the beliefs the US was built on. Granted you have the right to stand your ground, just doesn't mean you should all the time. Ok, try to imagine it, every single time some dude raises his voice and/or come at you wrong you turn and run. I would imagine most if not all is not planning to run every single time. So that leads up to my original question. If someone comes at you aggressivly and maybe at the begaining all it seemed like was some drunk dude bumpin his gums but befor you knew it he was advancing with a highly threatening demeanor and retreat was not an option(not saying you did not want to) keeping in mind you did not encourage or contributed in the guy's behavior, would you be justified in drawing? From what it sounds like, some of you guys may be suggesting to wait till he kicks your arse to see if he will stop or will it become a life threatening situation then draw.....after at least one rib is broken and you're slipping in and out of consciousness. So from what some have said, if in an altercation as such I should only defend with my bare hands and take the chance of the guy getting the better of me and take my gun. Ok, duly noted, but if you read or see me as a victim on the news my ghost is comming after you and you will never sleep well again.


Oh, spacemanspiff if I'm not mistaken what you quoted and your statement afterwards was pretty much the same idea, his was just a bit easier to take out of context.

*edit to add* (to spacemanspiff)...or where you quoting to support what he said? Ahh, can't tell anymore, lack of auditory tone of voice AND the over fervent of opinions and alfa-male behavior has made forum discussions not always, but usualy difficult and increases the fog-of-war thus tends to force you in assuming if not expecting every comment a negative one or the least a smartaxe one.

[Justme]

It's not about "backing down" it's about backing down rather than using lethal force. If you must use lethal force in order to stand your ground, you are on pretty shaky ground. The only time anyone should ever use lethal force is when there is absolutely no other safe option. There are too many people on this forum who seem to want to find all sorts of exceptions to this one basic idea. And yes, letting criminals "get away with it" doesn't sit well on the average american psyche.

discussing and thinking about these things is the most valuable aspect of this forum. It helps to consider how you should react in certain situations before you are God forbid confronted with those situations, Understanding that sometimes you might have to do something that goes totally against your instincts is important.

[Ultima-Ratio]

I have to award a trophy to the XD dudes story of drawing down on a female who he carefully didn't mention her age or size.

And another to WA for his quick judgment whilst knowing full well he'd drawn down on a drunk native (very common here), tho he sort of mentions it late in the thread.

BTW, some of the CCW schools teach that when someone is "inside your comfort zone" you should firmly say that you are feeling threatened and you are armed while taking a stance and a grip on your firearm. (Don't draw----YET)

Example three large males are approaching rapidly with both visual and verbal threats to dismember you.....worked for me up on Muldoon.
Verbal Judo is a skill used by many LEOs, learn it.

Ferchristsakes ya drew yer gun on a chick??!!!! Geeeeez!

[MyXD40]

I have to award a trophy to the XD dudes story of drawing down on a female who he carefully didn't mention her age or size.

is that good or bad?

She was 30's, about 5'7, 200lbs

I'm in my 20's, 6'4 155lbs (skinny)

[MyXD40]

BTW, some of the CCW schools teach that when someone is "inside your comfort zone" you should firmly say that you are feeling threatened and you are armed while taking a stance and a grip on your firearm. (Don't draw----YET)

I was tought the same, as long as the situation allows it. Thankfuly I always open carry, and a black firearm against a white t-shirt, not hard to miss, especialy when the firearm is withing plain sight (I had my side turned to her as I was keeping my dog in the truck).

But yes, you should always announce whatever action you are about to take, if you are to take one. This way if anyone is around, they will be a great witness.

Kinda like if you are taking a suspect down, you yell out "quit resisting arrest" yelling that at them, so if anyone happens to see you they will come back and say "well he was saying quit resisting arrest and wrestling this guy on the ground.."

[JohnKSa]

Kinda like if you are taking a suspect down, you yell out "quit resisting arrest" yelling that at them, so if anyone happens to see you they will come back and say "well he was saying quit resisting arrest and wrestling this guy on the ground.."

It won't make any difference. Unless you're a cop, you're going to be very unhappy with the results of yelling about "resisting arrest" while you try to subdue a fellow citizen. Things won't get better when the REAL cops show up you start talking to them about "suspects".

whilst knowing full well he'd drawn down on a drunk native (very common here),

I'm curious about this inverse proportionality you apparently believe exists between ubiquity and danger. How rare does something have to be before you allow that it could pose a threat?

[MyXD40]

Well sucks for the person who's not a cop then. Hope they don't happen to yell that.

Edit: Guess sometimes I think the world revolves around me

[JohnKSa]

...the person who's not a cop...sometimes I think the world revolves around me

So you're a police officer?