What would be the proper Protocol ....?

[Enoy21]

Last year there was a shooting in the parking lot of a Grocery store that I had just been at 2 hours before it happened. ( and visit frequently with my children )


I've often asked myself how I would have handled this had I been there in that parking lot when this happened. ( without my kids of course- With my kids would be a different story all together )

I feel like I would have probably drawn and had him targeted in the event that he seemed to go after someone else but not said anything to alert him that I had a gun on him. Once I saw he was not a threat to anyone else immediately and was leaving I would have then followed him while calling 911 to let the Police know where he was and where they could find him quickly. Atleast this is what I feel would have been the best choice of action for me.


In a Scenerio where you are a witness and see this happening, what would be the proper way to react ?

How do you feel you would react regardless of what's considered right or wrong by others ?





Full story here :

http://www.roanoke.com/news/roanoke/wb/160118

One of the witnesses :

I saw him shoot him. Point blank. Period. Unloaded his pistol into him," Barnett said. "I looked up, seen him shooting him four or five times. Then when the guy hit the ground, he shot him four or five more times."

Barnett said the gunman then got into "a fairly new model Jeep" and left the parking lot without a word. Barnett said his cellphone log listed his 911 call at 3:02 p.m.

Other News broadcasts :

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&s...-8&sa=N&tab=nw



This is also one prompted me to finally break down to get my CCW and start carrying more often.

http://www.wset.com/news/stories/0408/515866.html

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Let me ask you a question. If you follow the person and they detect you, are you ready to die?

So you don't have your kids with you. However, are you ready for them and their mother to be alone?

["JJ"]

I would like to think I would follow your plan. Sitting here with a calm mind we are able the think rationally. We can come up with all kind of "if I was there". Some might say you could save the one he was shooting if you interviened. Playing arm chair QB, I think about; if I had him in my sights, & he turns and sees this, does this then draw fire from him when he was going to leave? Of course, hind sight is 20/20! In the heat of the moment you would have very little time to think about his next move! If I just watched him empty his gun into someone, & he turns and makes eye contact with me, at this point I am fearing for my life! I am probably firing on him at that point. What I would like to do is stay out of sight as you said, follow and report. Get involved only if he starts hunting. My two cents! "JJ"

[indykappa]

if he emptied his gun, he may not have a spare/reload mag. he probably couldn't shoot back! (just kidding...)

in all seriousness, i think following the guy would be a good move ONLY IF you are alone and you could do it without drawing too much attention to yourself.

as the previous poster mentioned, sitting here and playing armchair QB is easy to do when there aren't any bullets flying!

["JJ"]

Good point Mr Myer! I would in no way want to put my life on the line. BUT, (those things always get us in trouble) if my family or yours, was shopping at another store that became his next stop. I am not sure I could get pass the what if!

[stargazer65]

Unless he came after me I would just report what I saw to the police. Be the best witness I could be.

[Skans]

I've given some thought about this kind of thing. Basically "what would I do if I was at the scene of an armed robbery, and I was armed"?

Here are my thoughts:

1. I'd have to be within about 10 feet of the threat before I'd think about taking action, if it doesn't directly involve me. I'm not going to chase after someone, and I'm not going to fire my weapon at someone over 10 feet away when me or my family is not being threatened. Too much risk of hurting someone else or making a bad situation worse. The conditions would simly have to "be right" for me to even consider taking action at this distance.

2. If the threat is more than 10 feet away and doesn't involve me - well, that's what cell phones are for.

3. Also, my gun is for my self protection. I'm not a cop, and just because I have a gun and happen to be somewhere near an armed robbery doesn't mean I'm going to play cop. Other people need to learn to carry and use their own guns. Mine is for my self protection! Sorry if this sounds selfish - it is, because quite frankly, I value my life over that of someone I don't know and don't have any obligation to.

[BikerRN]

First off:

Gunshots have me looking for cover. Learn to recognize what is cover and concealment. many things, like car doors are concealment, not cover.

Shooting back or being a good witness is optional. I very well can't be a good witness if I'm dead. Thus, get thee butt to cover post haste. I will be happy to tell the responding on duty constabulary what I witnessed, which may or may not be much given my proclivity to seek cover and not concealment.

So the shooter drives off and goes to another parking lot/store. GREAT! That means he or she is no longer at the one that I'm at, and thus I'm relatively safer. The people in the other parking lot? That's on them as they had the same opportunity to use legal safety tools and be prepared as I did.

Getting involved? That's what calling 911 is. I am involving myself to a degree by summoning on duty responders to the scene. I do not know the situation, and what led up to the shooting. Could this have been a robbery where the real bad guy is the one laying on the ground after being shot? You bet, but I don't know that. The actual "good guy" may have paniced after having to shoot someone and driven off. It has happened before.

For the Cliff Note Version:

There's two kinds of problems, their's and mine. This situation sounds like a problem of their's.

For some interesting reading: http://www.stoppingpower.net/comment...tervention.asp

Just some "food for thought". Do what you want, but I've made my decisions and thought about this, and other scenarios, and even lived a few of them.

Biker

[Enoy21]

A couple of points of note.


A) Yes this is totally armchair QB'ing. Which I consider "mental training" for a given situation just as jogging daily is physically preparing for a marathon. Seeing events like this and the ability to analyze it from the hindsight , helps us to see the errors we may have made and to consider and train for the proper response in our minds... Just my take on that.


B: It could be because I know where he went and where he was found that makes me a bit more secure in feeling like I could have tailed him safely. Had I been there ? I can't say for sure that's what I would have done..... as at the time I was still untrained and really hadn't thought about how I SHOULD handle it in that situation. ( Which is what I'm doing here ) I also have pretty confident belief in my driving ability ( Former racer ). Much more so than confidence in my shoot-out ability.

C: The question about ready to die in defense of another ? I guess that's the same question that all police officers , military men and women and anyone else that chooses to defend someone with that level of force asks themselves everyday when they go to work. I've often been told I have the protector personality. ( sometimes blessing/curse)

It turns out that when they found him he had several other mags fully loaded in his vehicle. So yes he had more ammo.


BikerRN that is an excellent article , and I appreciate the posting. It certainly gives more to think about in that type of situation. As for calling 911. If I have a firearm then I may be the only one or one of the very few of the people there to be carrying.... While I would bet 90% of those people had Cell Phones and 911 already handled. So I guess that's where my train of thought was. Let the other 20 people that have no other options use their tools while I having multiple options can choose.

ALL of the feedback has been good and given me thoughts to consider in something like that.


Perhaps ...... Upon reading and more thoughts , it would be better to have hidden behind a vehicle, drawn my weapon and made sure I had site of him to ensure he was not coming my way or to the people in my immediate vicinity. Giving me time to make a better decision.

Although I can't help but think that if I saw him then turn on someone else in that parking lot that I couldn't live with myself if I stood by and refused to defend and protect those people when I may have been the only one there to do so because of fear. Hesitation kills more lives than decisive actions in many cases. Even if they are poor decisions. Again the mental preparation.

Armchair QB'ing and discussion I believe is good for this type of mental "training" as I like to consider it. Thank you all again for your thoughts and welcome others.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

You also can't live with yourself if you are dead.

That's the decision. If you intervene to save a life in an active situation - that is well and good and noble - if you want to take the risk.

Trailing the person as compared to reporting it? It that so clear?

Not to be nasty to anyone but on such chats, it is easy to say that you have such personality characteristics that you would obviously step up to die for the cause. Please think about whether this is the case of just sounds good in the light of rational thought.

People respond automatically in some situations - an evolutionary system. However, with time -risk analysis kicks in. If you say that you can't live with yourself - can your family live without you. They don't have the support system that law and military have (however flawed they might be).

So are you making the decision on an emotional, self-image view or a rational outcome one? It is your decision.

You have to decide that you are not willing to go home to your family. Emergency personnel made that - to some degree (debated in the LEO community after the Columbine fiasco). Discuss it with your family before you decide that you are going to leave them by risk taking.

Be honest and don't posture.

[Skans]

....They don't have the support system that law and military have.....

Nor the training. Nor the equipment. Nor the experience. Nor the salary and job description. In all seriousness, if you feel a "calling" to be in law enforcement, then do it the right way and go for it! Novices, such as myself, would be best to concentrate on doing the best we can when directly confronted with by a violent threat.

[Enoy21]

This is all true and I am being honest with myself in that I don't know for sure how I would react. I know how I have reacted in the past without thought. But those times were in direct defense of my children , or in other times alot less deadly ( brawls at a party where I jumped in to break it up or to help someone from getting jumped by 2-3 people ).

My thoughts were trailing the person WHILE reporting.... Having 911 on the phone and keep them abreast of the location , direction , etc to help the police get there much faster without having to look at every Red Ford that is on the street. No tailing him on his ass , just enough to keep him in site of me.

I also said that " I can't help but think that if I saw him then turn on someone else in that parking lot that I couldn't live with myself "

Not saying that I couldn't ... I am being honest with myself in knowing that it would take time for me to deal with the fact that I had the power to save lives and didn't. I've been in that situation before although not gun related and it is something that I beat myself up over for a LONG time.

I can tell by your reaction that you are seeing this as a "Had I been there I would have taken him in one shot to the Head while waving my American Flag and/or Dying in the process of tackling him and putting him a full nelson while I stripped his gun from him .... etc " That was not my intention at all. Hence the questioning intent of the thread.


Is it so wrong for us to try and imagine how we would want to react .... and in so doing discussing it with others here that can help point out flaws and give reasons why we should react differently ?

One of the main reasons for this thread was "What is the proper response to this type of situation.... ? "

Perhaps in my original post I should have worded better my feeling in that " I would like to think this would have been the way I would handle it ...... "



This event :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia_Tech_massacre


Happened 30 minutes from my home. I can't help but think .... Had one of the students or faculty had a gun..... To take this guy down after the first shots fired........ 32 people might have lived after that day. Had 3 people had guns and seen it... and none of them engaged him .... and let the other 32 people die ... How do you think they are feeling about themselves right now ?

[ac700wildcat]

BikerRN made the point that I was going to make, but I'll say it again. You don't know the full story when something like this is happening. For all you know the guy that was shot could have come at the guy with the gun with a knife or something. In that case what happens if the guy with the gun turns and now sees you pointing a gun at him? He full of adrenaline and thinks that maybe the other guy had an accomplice and shoots at you so you shoot back and you could both end up dead or injured.

I think with something like this, as long as the shooter doesn't start going after other people, it would be best to get to somewhere safe and get police and paramedics on their way and be a good witness. I've thought about this same situation as if I was the one defending myself and how I could keep another ccw holder to keep from coming after me because they think that I'm the bad guy.

[Enoy21]

I think with something like this, as long as the shooter doesn't start going after other people,

This was my thought as well in the first post. " Provided he didn't turn and start opening up on other people " I would not engage him after the first shooting because there is nothing I could do for that guy that was killed.



I'd also like to think that if I was the one defending myself , and had just engaged someone in defense and harmed them..... that I would have been the one to lower my gun afterward and called 911 myself. To make sure that anyone else around me knows I am no threat to them. That I was acting in self defense or defense of another that in immediate danger.


Again , mental preparation in how to handle given situations. Again , Stress and Adrenaline doesn't always allow our rational mind to make the best decisions...... but thinking about it often and mentally training our thought process I believe can help.

[Glenn Dee]

Great post.


And a real situation. I dont think anyone can be sure what they would do. I do agree that speculation in this case is akin to training.

If you happen to frequent an environment where these things happen You should be a little better prepared.

I have mentioned tactical thinking before. IMO the trick to getting the upper hand in this or a similar situation is tactical thinking. As you walk through a parking lot notice cover, and concealment. Play mental scenarios in your head as you go about your regular business. Notice who is standing where.

I believe that in a surprise shooting situation... A persons first reaction should be to get cover. Absoloutly if you have loved ones... get them to cover. If your not involved... I'd stay uninvolved. As someone else suggested. Without knowing the players, you could end up in a world of physical, and or legal hurt.

Also IMO another poster nailed it right on saying that your firearm is for self protection, and you are under no authority, or responsibility to use it for any other reason.

During the time I worked in policing similar scenerios were presented during training. The conclusion, and policy was that if an Off DUTY officer witnessed a violent crime. He should consider if his official reaction, and use of his firearm would escalate the situation, and/or bring additional danger to innocent bystanders. If using his firearm would bring additional danger to an already bad situation the Officer should observe, and record as much information as possible about the perp(s). And when possible transmit that information to responding offcers.

I believe thats a smart tactic. If a police officer should use restraint. Even more so a civilian should.

One thing about being a good witness... After being a good witness you may be the only thing standing between a violent, and now desperate to stay out of jail (once he's out on bail or ror) bad actor and many years in prison. I have heard defense lawyers advise clients " you'll have to win this one in the streets" Meaning... They have you cold... The witness is going to put you away. Just something else to think about.

Anyway enough of my meanderings...

Glenn Dee

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Folks misread what I said. Blah, blah - I have studied in great detail the psychology of altruistic behavior and the decision processes that go into such.

I simply point out:

1. System 1 vs. System 2 (emotional vs. rational) processes.

2. The difference between quick reflexive emergency behavior and some that allow time for consideration.

3. The need to separate out emotional responses which one sometimes puts forward in discussion to promote self-image to others or one's own personal fable vs. what one should do.

4. The separation of such utterances to actual behavior.

Just the scholar here, trying to inform - over and above the personal.

[Dr. Strangelove]

In a Scenerio where you are a witness and see this happening, what would be the proper way to react ?

Get yourself as far away from the danger as possible. If you happen to witness the events, recount them as accurately as possible to the authorities.

Do not involve yourself in the situation, GET AWAY!

It may seem weak or un-American, but it's the right way to react.

Involving yourself in a situation where you have no idea what is going on is foolish. Was he the only bad guy with a gun? Were there police there that you didn't see? Drawing a gun in that situation is only going to get you shot.

As I've said many times, carrying a gun does not make someone an "official Jr. Lone Ranger protector of the public at large". The only duty you have is to yourself and family, and that duty to your family includes not getting involved in potentially lethal situations where you may not be coming home.

No offense meant to anyone, but the Walter Mitty and Wild West lawman fantasies need to stay just that... fantasies.

[BeerSleeper]

Originally Posted by BikerRN

Could this have been a robbery where the real bad guy is the one laying on the ground after being shot? You bet, but I don't know that

That is exactly what I think. Here we are, posting on a forum, around which a common central topic is the potential use of guns for self-defense, and yet, in this story, how many have already assumed the shooter to be the BG? This is an assumption, and is the mindset of the anti's.

I think the thing I fear next-most to having to use my gun in defense of myself/others, is that in the aftermath, someone may mistake me for the BG, and engage me, or the cops arriving on scene making the same error, because we all know, all LEO since the invention of the firearm have never, ever been trigger happy ever ever.

mall cop rules apply here. observe and report. Try to get plate numbers off vehicle as it leaves. Beyond that, is vigilantism, exposing yourself to risk, and potentially liability. As he is leaving, the harm has been done, the victim has been shot. We carry guns for defense, not for apprehension of criminals. There is no defensive reason to follow the shooter.

[TailGator]

Three days and 18 posts, and no one has suggested that an appropriate response might be to render first aid to the wounded person after the shooter has left the scene.

[BikerRN]

Three days and 18 posts, and no one has suggested that an appropriate response might be to render first aid to the wounded person after the shooter has left the scene.

Without the proper personal protective equipment, unless the shooter is a loved one I'm willing to have unprotected sex or swap spit with, I won't be giving first aid.

I will summon the local on duty personnel to attend to you however. What if, while you are addressing the injuries to the so-called "victim" the shooter comes back to finish the job? What if, while you are attending to the victim's wounds, a Johnny Do Good thinks you are the attacker as you are applying direct pressure to a wound, and in the interest of saving the day decides to put a bullet in your back because he believes you are stabbing the victim because you hade used your knife to cut the victim's T-Shirt into a dressing?

There's a lot of variables here, and we could 'what if" this thing until the cows come home. The point I'm trying to make is, things aren't always what they seem, and you open yourself up to real and imaginary threats to your existence and longevity in these scenarios. It's best to make sure the risk is worth the reward.

Biker

[ClayInTx]

The perp shot the victim four or five times.
When the victim is on the ground the perp shoots victim four or fives times more.
Perp then drives away.

No mention made of grabbing victim’s wallet or valuables.

Gangster execution. Stay out of it.

[Helios]

I tend to avoid gunfire when at all possible. If I hear or see gunfire, I typically go the other way. Now, should I see some guy executing anyone he sees inside the Walmart, that's a different situation.

[Enoy21]

These are the kinds of responses I was looking for while not necessarily agreeing with some of them.

Many of you make excellent points in staying out of it and not trying to be the Hero. While I do agree ( against my desire to be said hero ) it does make complete sense in that we carry to protect ourselves and our family/loved ones. We are not law enforcement or military.

I HAVE been in situations where the seemingly apparent circumstances were not what they appeared. Such as breaking up an ass whipping at a party only to find out that the guy getting his ass whipped had dropped a roofy on a girl and was attempting to take advantage of her when another good citizen was stopping him. This was a tough lesson learned for me years ago.


At the same time ...

Referencing the VT massacre:
When it's obvious that this person is just randomly shooting others , on a killing spree ... I put myself in the situation that if my daughter was danger ( will be in college soon ) I would hope, and still pray, that a responsible gun carrying citizen will step up to the plate to save her life. Even if nothing more than a distraction to the shooter. I feel that's part of our responsibility to each other as gun carrying citizens; To do our best to protect life anywhere we can.


I completely agree with getting cover first , I completely agree with assessing the situation , I completely agree with not getting involved/following and being the best witness I can on the single shooting. To allow him to drive away and be the best witness I can.

Tailgater I believe nailed it as well though .... I am trained in CPR and first Aid. I should have seen this optional scenario right away and I appreciate his reminder ( again , reasons for this discussion ) I cannot imagine being the type of person that lives in such a state of complete and utter fear that I would be afraid to help a dying person for fear that I would be mistaken for a bad guy or that the guy would return after driving off the lot or catching a disease. I would hope that the 15 other people who witnessed this situation would be helping me and warning me of such situations as the perp returning, or that I would hear the sirens.

To me hiding in fear and looking out only for our own is completely against what this entire country is about ..... coming to the rescue of other nations when needed, women and children , mentally ill and crippled. Using our strength and power to protect the weak ( not calling you women weak ) when we have the means to do so. ( Yes I'm a conservative republican and completely agree with individual responsibility in most areas of life ).

If we all acted as many of you have suggested , looking out for our own and only worrying about ourselves and our loved ones.... How many more people might die due to our selfish fears ?

I've made so many sacrifices in my life ( taking on responsibility and custody of my daughter at age 17 ) that I hope and pray one day that my children respect and honor me for those sacrifices made out of love and selflessness even though I didn't always go about it the best way.


I guess to me there is no greater honor than someone who made the ultimate sacrifice to save another. ( Such as my honor to my parents who saved me ) Such as our LEO and Military personnel. I've often felt to myself that if I'm going to die at a young age, I don't want it to be a car accident , Plane crash , Heart attack , foolishness , but to be in the act of defense and saving another. Something that my own children can respect and model after. Something to make them proud of me and my decisions... Just as I cried like a little girl out of pride at my grandfathers military funeral.


Perhaps this is ignorance , perhaps this is dreamed of Heroism .... perhaps it's foolishness ... Perhaps it's just romanticism.... But this is who I am.


I ( if given the frame of mind and level headness and mental training ) feel confident I would do my best to administer CPR and first aid regardless of above mentioned risks.

I would LIKE to think that after observing the situation that if the person turned and started randomly massacring people that I would have the balls to step up and save lives.

I would LIKE to think that if LEO showed up while I was doing CPR or had a gun they would be responsible and trained enough to step back and assess the situation themselves.

That if while behind cover and seeing LEO's arrive on site that I would have the presence of mind to drop my gun , raise my hands and let them know without doubt that I am no threat to them or anyone else.

This also is where the LEO personnel of the site could give their perspective and thoughts on such a situation.


Again this is conjecture .... Mental training and learning and I thank you all for your feedback and input and ask for more from others that are scanning the boards.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I'd like to ask a question. If I stand up and intervene to save your relative and I die, my wife will lose my income and our house.

Will you commit to supporting her? Financially for the rest of her life?

Also, you don't have a good grasp on history if you really think our foreign policy is driven by coming to the aid of other counties as compared to our self-interest. Nor was it in the past.

Cliches are part and parcel of System I emotional and automiatic thought. Folks resort to them, in part, when in these discussions, there is not an automatic 'atta-boy' when someone proposes they personally are heroic but instead suggest rational evaluations of risk.

No offense to folks, but there is so much more to understanding altruism and history, that I must comment.

[Enoy21]

These are good points that you make and something I think we each and all need to consider and keep in mind in situations like this. A decision that each of us would need to make for ourselves and our families.

And yes I know there is always some self interest in the US stepping up to the plate. Even if to maintain relationships with another country that is feeling threatened. Ensuring that when WE are threatened that we have that other countries aid as well.


UK gets attacked ? We help them to maintain our financial and defense allies. We get Attacked ? We expect the UK to do the same.


The Aid the US gave to Haiti victims I'm sure had many political advantages as well.

Foreign policy in general was a bit broader than I had intended in my comment , but I see what you are getting at.