hunting loads

Darksith · January 8, 2010, 02:28 AM

I have been told/taught that you want 3 things from your hunting rounds. Infallibility, consistency, accuracy. But I also have a buddy that says he loads his hunting loads as hot as is safe while still keeping relative consistent accuracy. Is it better to have a bullet that will shoot clovers at 100, but travel slower, or is it better to have a small group but a faster velocity? I will take a shoot, need to take a shot that is 300+ yards at times. I don't want to, but the areas I hunt make it necessary sometimes.

257 · January 8, 2010, 03:14 AM

Unless you are trying to kill a white tail with a 22LR, you don't "need" to cut clovers. However, I would want to be able to do that with my hunting rounds. Something to think about, the old rule of thumb for deer was 1000 ft/lbs energy was sufficient. So, using your bullet weight, BC, estimated distance of longest shot "you" feel comfortable taking, and muzzle velocity, you can easily figure out what a minimun velocity at impact would need to be, and therefore know energry at impact. I think its better to be accurate than fast. And sometimes, the most accurate is the fastest. Whatever you're hunting, assuming you've reasonably match caliber to game, if you make the shot the animal will never know if it was hit from a 170gr 30cal moving 1900fps or 2900fps. Ok, it might, but the point is heart/lung shot, its dead either way. Personally, I'd rather see people more concerned about accuracy and shot placement than velocity. Also, you might get more meat back if the bullet is moving a little slower. How could you not want the most accurate round available?

elkman06 · January 8, 2010, 09:12 AM

I loaded my 06 up until it started to hurt..No point in that. I backed it off to where I was shooting 1MOA at 100yds and stayed there. Using 4350 powder and Hornaday BTSP bullets. Speed does not equate to accuracy nor dead animals..Something most of us had to learn when starting out reloading.
elkman06

SL1 · January 8, 2010, 09:54 AM

I think the answer depends on the game, the range, the gun and the shooter. All of those elements have been mentioned in the answers already posted, so I am not going to waste your time repeating what they have already told you. I only want to sum it up with the thought that you need to figure out for yourself what kinds of shoots on what kinds of game YOU are confident with in YOUR gun. What your buddy can do (or just SAYS he can do) really aren't relevant to you (so long as you keep your ego out of the equation).

You did say that you sometimes want to take 300+ yard shots, but you didn't say at what animals. And, you didn't mention whether you are using a laser range finder or estimating range or what. The use of a laser range finder can greatly reduce the benefits of "flat" trajectory from a fast bullet. And, reduced recoil can greatly improve accuracy for SOME shooters. So, you really need to decide what combination of velocity and bullet weight that have sufficient energy and penetration at the range of interest will give YOUR the best chance of placing your bullet in YOUR quarry's vital area.

The only way I know to figure that out is to try different things on targets at the intended ranges, and PRACTICE.

SL1

GeauxTide · January 8, 2010, 01:00 PM

In the '06 and .308 based cartridges that I load, I've often found the best accuracy was a couple of grains off maximum, including small extreme spread and standard deviation at the chrony. If you look at the ballistics, the extra 100-150 fps is irrelevent for 350 yards. In the 7mm mags, my most accurate loads were maximum.

Osageshooter · January 8, 2010, 01:19 PM

As stated, most hunting rifles and ammo tend to shoot most accurately somewhere close enough to maximum that it probably won't make much difference with terminal energy and trajectory on game. If you find your most accurate load, check it out on the ballistic tables and see where you are. Likely, you will have what you need with that accurate load. I guess if you are trying to hunt brown bear with a 25-06, then go for max velocity and energy ... and practice head shots. If you are hunting deer with a 308, I bet the most accurate load you come up with for your rifle will have what you need for 300 yards and beyond with accurate ranging.

Hog Hunter · January 8, 2010, 01:33 PM

I load my 7mm mag rounds almost 4 grns. lighter than max. Thats where there the most accurate. i have always belived that shot placement kills animals, not the hottest load that could be loaded even though they do the job also. I like know where the ball is going to hit rather than close to where its gonna hit.

Darksith · January 8, 2010, 02:09 PM

thanks guys, I am always looking for more knowledge being so new, and you have provided me with lots. I will make the decision based on preformance at the range. The long shots I will be taking would be at either a moose, or a goat/sheep. I will let the holes in the paper determine what my loads are going to be.

Old Grump · January 8, 2010, 02:22 PM

Another old Dinosaur who has been using 4350 since the 60's. I loaded till my accuracy started to decrease and backed off till it was accurate again. Like others have found, the accurate load with this powder is just a step below maximum load and I have my best groups with it. I also use 180 grain Remington Core-lokt bullets. There may be better newer whiz bang bullets but these are consistent and dead is dead. With the heavier bullet I know I am going to maintain my energy longer without needing to break the sound barrier 3 times on the way out the barrel. I never understood why you needed 3800 fps out of a deer rifle. You never find a deer moving that fast and why burn up the barrel or take the pounding.

oneounceload · January 8, 2010, 02:40 PM

IMO, accuracy trumps everything else - if you can't hit what you're aiming at, why bother to take the shot? If that means backing off on the "OOMPH" factor a little, then I do that.

snuffy · January 8, 2010, 03:57 PM

Define hunting accuracy. Minute of deer hide?

Every time a question like this comes up, I ask that question. Lots of ink has gone into the holy grail, "less than minute of angle", MOA. But is it needed for an animal the size of a deer? In my mind, the answer is, no. Any rifle that's capable of 1.5 " @ 100 yards will work just great for deer.

I have a Ruger M-77 tang safety .280, (varmint weight BBL). It never shot much under 1" @ 100. But 1" was obtainable, but at much reduced velocities. The throat seemed to be half way down the barrel! It never lived up to the potential of the cartridge which CAN be 2800 with a 140 bullet. Max loads were only 2650!

All that to explain that the accuracy load was 1.5 grains under max with AA-4350, it was right on 1". BUT the max load was 2600 fps, the group was 1-¾ inches, nice round group, BUT is that enough for deer? Oh, that was with 145 speer hot cores. I decided it was guud enuff. Ya know something? It was, I shot a bunch of deer with it until the nosler ballistic tip came out. Yeah, that was nearly 30 yrs. ago! That rifle has much more than 30 deer to it's credit.

sc928porsche · January 8, 2010, 09:26 PM

Im with old grump on this one. Get it as fast as you can without loosing accuracy or overloading. Its the accurate shot that brings them down.

Colorado Redneck · January 9, 2010, 10:15 PM

One of the things that kind of sent me towards the "max-velocity" crapola was the yammering about high velocity magnums. I evolved kind of like Grump. Started out loading for speed, then backed off to achieve accuracy. If you use the JBM trajectory calculator, it is really pretty insignificant to your maximum point blank range if you are sending the projectile at max-velocity or 1-200 fps less than max.

Another thing is, some writers are convinced that you need a canon to bring down game. That is more BS.

Accuracy first. Use maximum point blank range as an idicator of velocity. The 6.5 Swede has been successfully used on all kinds of game, and it is pretty tame compared to a 30-06.

January 8, 2010, 02:28 AM	#1
Darksith Member Join Date: September 7, 2009 Posts: 68	hunting loads I have been told/taught that you want 3 things from your hunting rounds. Infallibility, consistency, accuracy. But I also have a buddy that says he loads his hunting loads as hot as is safe while still keeping relative consistent accuracy. Is it better to have a bullet that will shoot clovers at 100, but travel slower, or is it better to have a small group but a faster velocity? I will take a shoot, need to take a shot that is 300+ yards at times. I don't want to, but the areas I hunt make it necessary sometimes.

January 8, 2010, 09:12 AM	#3
elkman06 Senior Member Join Date: March 14, 2006 Location: Wyoming Posts: 885	I loaded my 06 up until it started to hurt..No point in that. I backed it off to where I was shooting 1MOA at 100yds and stayed there. Using 4350 powder and Hornaday BTSP bullets. Speed does not equate to accuracy nor dead animals..Something most of us had to learn when starting out reloading. elkman06 __________________ "The right of the citizens to bear arms in the defense of themselves and of the state shall not be denied." Wyoming Constitution Article 1, Sec24 "Better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6"

January 8, 2010, 02:22 PM	#9
Old Grump Member in memoriam Join Date: April 9, 2009 Location: Blue River Wisconsin, in Posts: 3,144	Another old Dinosaur who has been using 4350 since the 60's. I loaded till my accuracy started to decrease and backed off till it was accurate again. Like others have found, the accurate load with this powder is just a step below maximum load and I have my best groups with it. I also use 180 grain Remington Core-lokt bullets. There may be better newer whiz bang bullets but these are consistent and dead is dead. With the heavier bullet I know I am going to maintain my energy longer without needing to break the sound barrier 3 times on the way out the barrel. I never understood why you needed 3800 fps out of a deer rifle. You never find a deer moving that fast and why burn up the barrel or take the pounding. __________________ Good intentions will always be pleaded for any assumption of power. The Constitution was made to guard the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all ages who mean to govern will, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters. --Daniel Webster--

January 8, 2010, 03:57 PM	#11
snuffy Senior Member Join Date: May 20, 2001 Location: Oshkosh wi. Posts: 3,055	Define hunting accuracy. Minute of deer hide? Every time a question like this comes up, I ask that question. Lots of ink has gone into the holy grail, "less than minute of angle", MOA. But is it needed for an animal the size of a deer? In my mind, the answer is, no. Any rifle that's capable of 1.5 " @ 100 yards will work just great for deer. I have a Ruger M-77 tang safety .280, (varmint weight BBL). It never shot much under 1" @ 100. But 1" was obtainable, but at much reduced velocities. The throat seemed to be half way down the barrel! It never lived up to the potential of the cartridge which CAN be 2800 with a 140 bullet. Max loads were only 2650! All that to explain that the accuracy load was 1.5 grains under max with AA-4350, it was right on 1". BUT the max load was 2600 fps, the group was 1-¾ inches, nice round group, BUT is that enough for deer? Oh, that was with 145 speer hot cores. I decided it was guud enuff. Ya know something? It was, I shot a bunch of deer with it until the nosler ballistic tip came out. Yeah, that was nearly 30 yrs. ago! That rifle has much more than 30 deer to it's credit. __________________ The more people I meet, the more I love my dog They're going to get their butts kicked over there this election. How come people can't spell and use words correctly?

January 8, 2010, 09:26 PM	#12
sc928porsche Senior Member Join Date: May 29, 2008 Location: now living in alabama Posts: 2,433	Im with old grump on this one. Get it as fast as you can without loosing accuracy or overloading. Its the accurate shot that brings them down. __________________ No such thing as a stupid question. What is stupid is not asking it.

January 8, 2010, 03:14 AM	#2
257 Member Join Date: November 21, 2009 Location: SW PA Posts: 26	Unless you are trying to kill a white tail with a 22LR, you don't "need" to cut clovers. However, I would want to be able to do that with my hunting rounds. Something to think about, the old rule of thumb for deer was 1000 ft/lbs energy was sufficient. So, using your bullet weight, BC, estimated distance of longest shot "you" feel comfortable taking, and muzzle velocity, you can easily figure out what a minimun velocity at impact would need to be, and therefore know energry at impact. I think its better to be accurate than fast. And sometimes, the most accurate is the fastest. Whatever you're hunting, assuming you've reasonably match caliber to game, if you make the shot the animal will never know if it was hit from a 170gr 30cal moving 1900fps or 2900fps. Ok, it might, but the point is heart/lung shot, its dead either way. Personally, I'd rather see people more concerned about accuracy and shot placement than velocity. Also, you might get more meat back if the bullet is moving a little slower. How could you not want the most accurate round available?

January 8, 2010, 09:54 AM	#4
SL1 Senior Member Join Date: November 8, 2007 Posts: 2,001	I think the answer depends on the game, the range, the gun and the shooter. All of those elements have been mentioned in the answers already posted, so I am not going to waste your time repeating what they have already told you. I only want to sum it up with the thought that you need to figure out for yourself what kinds of shoots on what kinds of game YOU are confident with in YOUR gun. What your buddy can do (or just SAYS he can do) really aren't relevant to you (so long as you keep your ego out of the equation). You did say that you sometimes want to take 300+ yard shots, but you didn't say at what animals. And, you didn't mention whether you are using a laser range finder or estimating range or what. The use of a laser range finder can greatly reduce the benefits of "flat" trajectory from a fast bullet. And, reduced recoil can greatly improve accuracy for SOME shooters. So, you really need to decide what combination of velocity and bullet weight that have sufficient energy and penetration at the range of interest will give YOUR the best chance of placing your bullet in YOUR quarry's vital area. The only way I know to figure that out is to try different things on targets at the intended ranges, and PRACTICE. SL1

January 8, 2010, 01:00 PM	#5
GeauxTide Senior Member Join Date: April 20, 2009 Location: Helena, AL Posts: 4,424	In the '06 and .308 based cartridges that I load, I've often found the best accuracy was a couple of grains off maximum, including small extreme spread and standard deviation at the chrony. If you look at the ballistics, the extra 100-150 fps is irrelevent for 350 yards. In the 7mm mags, my most accurate loads were maximum.

January 8, 2010, 01:19 PM	#6
Osageshooter Senior Member Join Date: August 27, 2009 Location: Overland Park, Kansas Posts: 179	As stated, most hunting rifles and ammo tend to shoot most accurately somewhere close enough to maximum that it probably won't make much difference with terminal energy and trajectory on game. If you find your most accurate load, check it out on the ballistic tables and see where you are. Likely, you will have what you need with that accurate load. I guess if you are trying to hunt brown bear with a 25-06, then go for max velocity and energy ... and practice head shots. If you are hunting deer with a 308, I bet the most accurate load you come up with for your rifle will have what you need for 300 yards and beyond with accurate ranging.

January 8, 2010, 01:33 PM	#7
Hog Hunter Senior Member Join Date: August 14, 2009 Location: Georgia Posts: 386	I load my 7mm mag rounds almost 4 grns. lighter than max. Thats where there the most accurate. i have always belived that shot placement kills animals, not the hottest load that could be loaded even though they do the job also. I like know where the ball is going to hit rather than close to where its gonna hit.

January 8, 2010, 02:09 PM	#8
Darksith Member Join Date: September 7, 2009 Posts: 68	thanks guys, I am always looking for more knowledge being so new, and you have provided me with lots. I will make the decision based on preformance at the range. The long shots I will be taking would be at either a moose, or a goat/sheep. I will let the holes in the paper determine what my loads are going to be.

January 8, 2010, 02:40 PM	#10
oneounceload Junior member Join Date: April 18, 2008 Location: N. Central Florida Posts: 8,518	IMO, accuracy trumps everything else - if you can't hit what you're aiming at, why bother to take the shot? If that means backing off on the "OOMPH" factor a little, then I do that.

January 9, 2010, 10:15 PM	#13
Colorado Redneck Senior Member Join Date: January 6, 2008 Location: Northeast Colorado Posts: 1,993	Magnumitis One of the things that kind of sent me towards the "max-velocity" crapola was the yammering about high velocity magnums. I evolved kind of like Grump. Started out loading for speed, then backed off to achieve accuracy. If you use the JBM trajectory calculator, it is really pretty insignificant to your maximum point blank range if you are sending the projectile at max-velocity or 1-200 fps less than max. Another thing is, some writers are convinced that you need a canon to bring down game. That is more BS. Accuracy first. Use maximum point blank range as an idicator of velocity. The 6.5 Swede has been successfully used on all kinds of game, and it is pretty tame compared to a 30-06.