Anyone shoot .45 ACP with Titegroup?

[HiPowering Along]

The shipment of dies for the Dillon finally arrived, and to the bench I went to make up the starting loads for .45 ACP.

I have Clays already that I've used for 9mm, and it's worked well. Wanted to try a couple of other powders to see the difference in them. Looked in the loading manuals for .45 ACP loads - Titegroup and Unique were in just about every one.

Loaded ten cartridges of each, and hand measured the powder for both - 200gr Lead SWCBB bullets over 5.3grs and 5.6grs of Unique, 4.5 and 4.9grs of Titegroup. Federal LP No. 150 primers, COL 1.200 - 1.250 nominal.

Took them to the range, setup the chrono, and chrono'd a couple of factory loads just to make sure the chrono was functioning properly. Remington UMC 230gr runs at about 815fps, according to the CED unit.

Proceeded to run the Unique batches through. Loading data said 5.3grs should work out to 800fps - and it was right on the money. 5.6grs showed just a nudge over what the manual said - right around 860. Cool - now onto the Titegroup.

First two shots of 4.gr loads - average of 215fps. Erf? Grabbed the factory stuff again, verified the chrono was working, and shot two more Titegroup 4.5's. Same thing.

First two shots of the 4.9gr loads - 225fps average. Chrono'd with the Remington again, chrono is working. Aiming in the exact same spot through the screens as "all that worked right" - just that the Titegroup loads won't chrono over 230 max. At that rate, I doubt it would even punch through the cardboard, much less even make it the seven feet to the chrono screens.

Recoil seems to tell me that it's moving faster than it shows on the screen - good report to it, muzzle climb doesn't quite feel like the Unique, tho.

<scratches head> All the components are exactly the same, except for the powder (Titegroup). If it makes any difference, that powder is pretty smokey. Muzzle of gun pointed upward between shots to allow powder to fall back to bottom of case before the shot.

Any more experienced loaders have any ideas? I've had good luck working up the loads for the 9mm and .40S&W, but this one has me wondering. I'm certainly not going to use that until I find out what the problem is.

Questionable lot of powder possibly? Or could it be the fact that Titegroup's "a little goes a long way" - there is very little volume of powder in that cartridge - is affecting it? I would think that two manuals giving identical loading data for those components would be at least in the ballpark.

<scratches head again>

Thanks for the help!

[Dave R]

Yes, I shoot .45acp with Titegroup. I use a 200gr. bullet, not a 230gr. And I use 5.2gr. of Titegroup, lit by a CCI large pistol primer.

Velocity I measured was somewhere around 750fps? I forget exactly. But I'm using a 2 or 3" barreled PT-145. And that's about where I chronoed factory loads. So that load "might" be up to around 850fps in a 5" barrel.

The only problem I had with it was leading, using Laser-Cast bullets. They never leaded for me in 9mm, only in .45acp. Someone on the Internet told me the Titegroup burns a little hot for lead. So I'm trying Unique and lead bullets in my next batch, and Titegroup with FMJ.

[HiPowering Along]

Thanks for the heads up with lead and Titegroup.

I don't have FMJ .452's in the house yet - might wait a bit. Still extremely strange that everything else chrono'd as expected, but these were 60% low on the velocity per the machine.

Might get a batch of CCI LP primers and try that - maybe the Feds just aren't the ticket with Titegroup?

Still learning all of this - again, any suggestions from those with more experience is appreciated!

[Dave R]

Your powder charge was quite a bit lower than mine. 4 gr? vs. 5.2 gr. Some powders need a good bit of pressure to burn well. Your charge may be too light?

[mjrodney]

4.8g under a 200g LSWC, worked for me, but like Dave R., I experienced some leading.

[maggys drawers]

I load 4.5 grns Titegroup under 200 grn LRNFP, but don't have a chrono reading for you...sorry.

Could the chrono have been reading unburnt powder particles coming through after the bullet had passed ?

[HiPowering Along]

Your powder charge was quite a bit lower than mine. 4 gr? vs. 5.2 gr. Some powders need a good bit of pressure to burn well. Your charge may be too light?

It's possible, but loaded to the specs for that bullet in two manuals - unless the ballistic coefficient is decidedly different, it should have at least made 500fps.

The other loads - the handloaded Unique loads, and the factory Remington loads all chrono'd in the 800+ range. Only the Titegroup loads chrono'd "sub-sub-sonic"...never more than 250fps.

I have a few loaded with 5.2grs I'll try next trip to the range - still under max specs, but the leading might be a problem. I'm wondering if a change of primers is in order, or if this might be an underpowered batch of powder that hasn't been reported yet. Highly unlikely, but possible....

[HSMITH]

Titegroup SUCKS until you get pressures up high enough for it to be consistent, then it is SO hot the barrel leads badly or you can't sustain shooting long enough with jacketed bullets to be worthwhile.

I have burned a couple pounds of it and HATE it, I can't understand why anyone would use it. It is also very temperature sensitive and as position sensitive as powders much older in technology. If it wasn't cheap it would fade quickly IMO.

[Zak Smith]

I have shot tens of thousands of rounds in 9x19, .40SW, 45ACP, and 44RM using Titegroup. These comprise my IPSC and 3-Gun loads, as well as training and practice.

It is the only powder I use for bulk handgun rounds right now, and I only use different powders in 9x19 (3N37) and 44RM (H110) for full-house loads. Several of my friends use it for the same purposes.

No deal-breaker problems. I switched from powders including VV-N320, 3N37, #2400, and Unique.

[Dave R]

and as position sensitive as powders much older in technology

I thought it was supposed to be IN-sensitive to position. That's because its so fast burning. Fast-burning also means hot, though.

Its been real accurate for me...

[HSMITH]

Dave, I know the propaganda says it is position insensitive but my chrono tells me it isn't much better than 231. Straight Clays is much more consistent in this regard when loaded in 45 acp for example.

[Zak Smith]

If you get inconsistent velocities with TG, try rifle primers. When I switched from WSP to WSR in my 40SW Long loads (IPSC), the S.D. fell by about 4-5x.

[longspurr]

Hipower
I think you just have a chrono glitch that is powder related. I have seen a similar thing with one powder in the 45 but it was either Blue dot or 800x. I solved my problem by putting a piece of cardboard between the pistol and the chrono. That seemed to stop odd pieces of power flying through the chrono. If you do this be sure to make an aiming point on the cardboard that will put your bullets THROUGH the chrono - not into it.

[HSMITH]

Zak, I had the same improvement with rifle primers in 9mm and 40. 45 doesn't seem to generate the pressure needed to get TiteGroup consistent. I still had SD's in the 70's in 45. 9mm and 40 I could get down to high 20's-low 30's which is useable for me, I don't like it but it will get the job done without raising power factor too high.

[ryucasta]

Hope this helps...

[HiPowering Along]

Longspurr - that's quite possible. One of the guys at the club who reloads and also chronos his loads suggested the cardboard 'V' and a hole centered to keep the muzzle blast away from it. That's something I'll have to try.

Haven't been able to get to chrono the new stuff yet, not with working 12 hour days...:barf:

I have a good supply of Clays - just might wind up using that anyway, especially if the Titegroup continues to smoke like it did - indoor range for the winter behooves cleaner burning powders!

Will post the results after I get to the range...thanks for the replies, guys!

[robertbank]

I have loaded 4.5 to 5 gr Titegroup under my 200 gr LSWC with good but nt spectatcular results. SD were in the mid teens. I prefer 231 for my .45acp. Titegroup goes into my .45LC when I want to load something different than Unique.

Take Care

Bob

[WESHOOT2]

45 ACP = W231 (yes, I have other choices...)

[lev83]

Another recipe to consider:
4.6 gr. Titegroup
230 gr. Hornady XTP JHP
Federal Nickle Case (Can use others-just my preference)
Win. Lg Pistol Primer
Consistently yeilds sub 1" MOA at 30 yds.

[shooter chef]

well, I use 4.7 Titegroup under a 200 gr round nose I get great results from it in my GSR. Just got back rom the range with no center ring left in the target at 33ft and 2 6 round clips

[Hotdog1911]

I don't think a 45 acp auto would function or cycle properly if the projectile only traveled 200 some odd fps. But hey, I wasn't there. I'd say you could defineatly see a 45 slug in flight clearly at 200 something fps.

Let me tell you who likes Titegroup. There are two groups; one is the Cowboy Action shooters, and the Action Shooting types. Here is why:

For Cowboy, They can brew-up Hodgdons lightest load recommendations and the load will perform consistanly at the lower end of the posted spectrum. The Cowboys like to shoot heavy bullets at slow speeds & Titegroup seems to work well under those conditions.

Ditto for the Action Shooters; if the power floor for the discipline that they are shooting calls for, say Bianchi, a 120pf minimum, Titegroup will perform consistently at those lower levels better than say W231 will. W231 is a good powder but it's not at its best when you brew-up your loads at the bottom of its posted operational spectrum. Remember: Never use less or more than the manual calls for.

Each competitor wants to make the power factor, bullet weight X velocity, without too much concern of loseing a competitive advantage by using a load with additional recoil. Titegroup is also supposed to be one of the least sensetive to ambient temperature. The older powders like Bullseye, Unique, Blue & Red Dot(s) appear to be exstreamly sensetive to heat & cold. The IPSC shootes discovered that a long time ago.

Some shooters report that they feel a more of a 'gentle' or 'softer' recoil power curve with Titegroup, as compared to W231 & Bullseye & HP-38 that produce a more 'snappy' type action.

Don't worry about primers or the carbon build-up in the flash hole. Apparently Winchester primers feed thru the Dillion equipment the best.
Federal primmers seem to be the hottest & and have most consistent spark in addition to having the softest cup of any other primer; making them the primer of choice for those people who experiencing light primer strikes on an otherwise functional gun. Magnum primers of any brand have harder cups than the standard. I don't need extra problems. Regular Large Pistol Primers have been the standard for .45 acp for about 90 plus years or more.

[robertbank]

If the sun is at your back and you view from a slight angle you can see a .45acp slug travelling at 800 fps. Done that.

Take Care

Bob

[azredhawk44]

I second the theory that you are getting a reading on some sort of grit or unburnt powder pebbles following your bullet through the chronograph. I routinely burn 230gr Rainiers/Berrys over 4.8gr Titegroup and plink with them at about 75 yards. At 200-ish fps, they wouldn't make it without significant "lobbing".

Try the cardboard, or paper, to block any debris from following your bullet through the chronograph.

[Ala Dan]

I haven't used Titegroup yet, as I'm very satisfied with the results I'm getting
from my use of Hodgdon Universal Clays. I hope too try some Titegroup just
as soon as the weather warms up a bit. Right now, the wind chill factor is
17 above 0; and I have NO heat in my self standing handloading shed~!

[otasan]

I use HTG in 9x19, .44 Special/Magnum, and .45 ACP. It is an excellent propellant for these calibers.