Adv. Tactical Systems Paint guns...

Rob Pincus · December 8, 1998, 02:21 PM

Okay, I had a conversation at rec.guns earlier this year about the value of paintball guns for people who do not have access to simunitions. I forget if we have talked about it around here yet.

anyway, I think being put on the business end of a ranged weapon raelly opens people's eyes up to just how dynamic and stressful a gun fight can be. I think I made the statemend that "one force-on-force session is often more valuable than a dozen days at the local guru-academy" (the topic was local CCW classes being of questionable value.)

So, I got the newest issue of Law Enforcement Product News and ADT has an advertisement for some tactically realistic paintball guns. The problem I have with the current popular guns is that there are all designed to fire 10,000 balls in minutes from behind a 4' wall. As we all know, that is tactically silly. Furthermore, the newer guns that I have almost require the use of what we use to call "constant air", ie- a backpacked 20oz Co2 can with a flexible hose running to the gun.

These guns are adverised as being of realistic wieght and feel, with clip based feeding systems (wih 25 round capacity).

The models seem to be for the duplication of MP5 and M16 type of firearm, no actual duty pistol sized models.

I wondered if anyone has used these things or if anyone knows how much they cost. OR, if anyone knows where one could find another realistic paint gun.

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-Essayons

Scott Evans · December 8, 1998, 09:10 PM

I am somewhat out of touch with what are the better paint ball products on the market now as it has been 10 years since I last fired one. So I am not much help there however, I noticed from your post that you are looking for realism and mentioned "Training" as a use. While I agree that there is some benefit to training with Paint ball guns I would caution you and suggest that you keep it very limited in its scope. Only indoors (indoor scenarios) never outdoors. It has been my experience that training in a paint ball environment quickly leads to a limited tactical perspective. Some examples are :
1) Taking chances that should not be taken and would not be taken in an actual scenario.
2) Using objects for cover that would not provide adequate protection from real rounds.
3) Targets are not engaged at the effective ranges of you real weapons.

Training in any quantity with paint ball equipment eventually leads to thinking that is not profitable in an actual engagement.

Paint ball should be for fun and very rarely for training. Just my .02 worth.

[This message has been edited by Scott Evans (edited 12-08-98).]

Rob Pincus · December 9, 1998, 01:20 AM

Please don't take that the wrong way, Scott. I hesitated for a long time to even use the words "training" and "paintball" in the same conversations.
Playing paintball will indeed lead to thinking that trees and plywood represent safe ways to hide from bullets and that it is okay to risk getting shot in order to grab a flag or occupy some space. Worse yet, as I alluded to earlier, most modern paintball equipment will make you think that reloading is not an issue and spray and pray is the best way to shoot.
All of those tactics are important to winning a paintball game.

What I was talking about was a very controlled situation (preferably, as you said, indoors.. we had access to an old prison for over a year that made a great kill house) in which everyone approaches the use of paint guns with the proper mindset. Hence, my search for equipment that fits in with that mindset.

To unillaterally rule paintball out as useless in training would be the same as saying Simunitions is useless. While Simunitions is much better, most people have no chance of using Simunitions.

As I said, I have seen people really change their perspective on things like moving and shooting after just one short paintball session.
Then, you take that person back to the live range and let them realize just how incredibly bad they are at shooting and moving... voila: you have a person with a new dedication to learning how to shoot practically.

After the discussions about the electronic simulators with R/C paint/nylon guns mounted above the screen I am seriously considering some sort of R/C unit on a paintgun at the range.

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-Essayons

snoman · December 12, 1998, 11:35 PM

I have seen a paintball pistol that looks like a converstion from a Crossman .357 pellet pistol. And if I recall it was less than $100.00.

---snoman---

fal308 · December 13, 1998, 11:45 AM

Try www.tagline.com or www.adtacsys.com. They both end up at Advanced Tactical Systems homepage.

. · December 13, 1998, 02:05 PM

Does Para Ordnance still make the full-auto MAC-10 look-a-like that shot the self-contained paintball cartridges? It was marketed in this country for the lumber industry to mark trees in silvaculture selective cutting operations. Started to buy one for grins & giggles, but the ammo seemed to be hard to get in any quantities.

Rob Pincus · December 13, 1998, 09:19 PM

Thanks, FAL! I emailed them regarding pricing and availablity. I'll post the response...

At first they requested some department letter head and the specifics of the training I was thinking about. Which kinda rubbed me the wrong way, since they specifically advertise two fo their models on their website for "game playing."

I sent him another Email, further explaining my intent to find out more about these devices and my fax machine started humming about an hour later.

Basically, i got the smae info that was on the website, 2 letters of recommendation (one from a UMCS Capt on HQ BTLN letterhead and one from the Wisconsin ANG on 1st BTN 128thInf(M) Letterhead), but still no prices!
------------------
-Essayons

[This message has been edited by Rob (edited 12-14-98).]

TMC · December 16, 1998, 08:09 PM

I have seen very realistic replicas of an M-16 and M4 carbine in I think Brigade Quartermaster catalog. These are aluminum and plastic with realistic weight and without the paintball "magazine" on top you would not be able to tell from the real thing. The kicker is they cost more that the real thing at $1100 and $1200. How much "realism" do you need?

Rob Pincus · December 16, 1998, 08:23 PM

The "regular" versions are avaliable for $600, but ATS will not give me a prioce on the M16/4 replicas until I send it to them on Department lettehead, which I am not authorized to do.

December 8, 1998, 02:21 PM	#1
Rob Pincus Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 1998 Location: Hotels Posts: 3,668	Okay, I had a conversation at rec.guns earlier this year about the value of paintball guns for people who do not have access to simunitions. I forget if we have talked about it around here yet. anyway, I think being put on the business end of a ranged weapon raelly opens people's eyes up to just how dynamic and stressful a gun fight can be. I think I made the statemend that "one force-on-force session is often more valuable than a dozen days at the local guru-academy" (the topic was local CCW classes being of questionable value.) So, I got the newest issue of Law Enforcement Product News and ADT has an advertisement for some tactically realistic paintball guns. The problem I have with the current popular guns is that there are all designed to fire 10,000 balls in minutes from behind a 4' wall. As we all know, that is tactically silly. Furthermore, the newer guns that I have almost require the use of what we use to call "constant air", ie- a backpacked 20oz Co2 can with a flexible hose running to the gun. These guns are adverised as being of realistic wieght and feel, with clip based feeding systems (wih 25 round capacity). The models seem to be for the duplication of MP5 and M16 type of firearm, no actual duty pistol sized models. I wondered if anyone has used these things or if anyone knows how much they cost. OR, if anyone knows where one could find another realistic paint gun. ------------------ *-Essayons*

December 8, 1998, 09:10 PM	#2
Scott Evans Staff Alumnus Join Date: December 7, 1998 Location: Jacksonville, NC Posts: 1,380	I am somewhat out of touch with what are the better paint ball products on the market now as it has been 10 years since I last fired one. So I am not much help there however, I noticed from your post that you are looking for realism and mentioned "Training" as a use. While I agree that there is some benefit to training with Paint ball guns I would caution you and suggest that you keep it very limited in its scope. Only indoors (indoor scenarios) never outdoors. It has been my experience that training in a paint ball environment quickly leads to a limited tactical perspective. Some examples are : 1) Taking chances that should not be taken and would not be taken in an actual scenario. 2) Using objects for cover that would not provide adequate protection from real rounds. 3) Targets are not engaged at the effective ranges of you real weapons. Training in any quantity with paint ball equipment eventually leads to thinking that is not profitable in an actual engagement. Paint ball should be for fun and very rarely for training. Just my .02 worth. [This message has been edited by Scott Evans (edited 12-08-98).]

December 9, 1998, 01:20 AM	#3
Rob Pincus Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 1998 Location: Hotels Posts: 3,668	Please don't take that the wrong way, Scott. I hesitated for a long time to even use the words "training" and "paintball" in the same conversations. Playing paintball will indeed lead to thinking that trees and plywood represent safe ways to hide from bullets and that it is okay to risk getting shot in order to grab a flag or occupy some space. Worse yet, as I alluded to earlier, most modern paintball equipment will make you think that reloading is not an issue and spray and pray is the best way to shoot. All of those tactics are important to winning a paintball game. What I was talking about was a very controlled situation (preferably, as you said, indoors.. we had access to an old prison for over a year that made a great kill house) in which everyone approaches the use of paint guns with the proper mindset. Hence, my search for equipment that fits in with that mindset. To unillaterally rule paintball out as useless in training would be the same as saying Simunitions is useless. While Simunitions is much better, most people have no chance of using Simunitions. As I said, I have seen people really change their perspective on things like moving and shooting after just one short paintball session. Then, you take that person back to the live range and let them realize just how incredibly bad they are at shooting and moving... voila: you have a person with a new dedication to learning how to shoot practically. After the discussions about the electronic simulators with R/C paint/nylon guns mounted above the screen I am seriously considering some sort of R/C unit on a paintgun at the range. ------------------ *-Essayons*

December 12, 1998, 11:35 PM	#4
snoman Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 1998 Location: Sauk Rapids, Mn, USA Posts: 127	I have seen a paintball pistol that looks like a converstion from a Crossman .357 pellet pistol. And if I recall it was less than $100.00. ---snoman---

December 13, 1998, 11:45 AM	#5
fal308 Staff Alumnus Join Date: October 12, 1998 Location: Missouri Posts: 1,992	Try www.tagline.com or www.adtacsys.com. They both end up at Advanced Tactical Systems homepage.

December 13, 1998, 02:05 PM	#6
. Senior Member Join Date: October 6, 1998 Location: My wife's house... Posts: 2,659	Does Para Ordnance still make the full-auto MAC-10 look-a-like that shot the self-contained paintball cartridges? It was marketed in this country for the lumber industry to mark trees in silvaculture selective cutting operations. Started to buy one for grins & giggles, but the ammo seemed to be hard to get in any quantities.

December 13, 1998, 09:19 PM	#7
Rob Pincus Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 1998 Location: Hotels Posts: 3,668	Thanks, FAL! I emailed them regarding pricing and availablity. I'll post the response... At first they requested some department letter head and the specifics of the training I was thinking about. Which kinda rubbed me the wrong way, since they specifically advertise two fo their models on their website for "game playing." I sent him another Email, further explaining my intent to find out more about these devices and my fax machine started humming about an hour later. Basically, i got the smae info that was on the website, 2 letters of recommendation (one from a UMCS Capt on HQ BTLN letterhead and one from the Wisconsin ANG on 1st BTN 128thInf(M) Letterhead), but still no prices! ------------------ *-Essayons* [This message has been edited by Rob (edited 12-14-98).]

December 16, 1998, 08:09 PM	#8
TMC Member Join Date: November 7, 1998 Posts: 92	I have seen very realistic replicas of an M-16 and M4 carbine in I think Brigade Quartermaster catalog. These are aluminum and plastic with realistic weight and without the paintball "magazine" on top you would not be able to tell from the real thing. The kicker is they cost more that the real thing at $1100 and $1200. How much "realism" do you need?

December 16, 1998, 08:23 PM	#9
Rob Pincus Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 1998 Location: Hotels Posts: 3,668	The "regular" versions are avaliable for $600, but ATS will not give me a prioce on the M16/4 replicas until I send it to them on Department lettehead, which I am not authorized to do.